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TFRs and you, who to believe ?????

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TFRs and you, who to believe ?????

Old 07-20-2022, 10:18 AM
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init4fun
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Default TFRs and you, who to believe ?????

Some months back, I sent the FAA an Email asking about control line model aircraft operations during TFRs, and the FAA's response in no uncertain terms stated that C/L is bound by the same expectations as all other model aircraft during TFRs. Perhaps some of you recall me posting this text of the Email the FAA sent in return?

"Yes, control line model aircraft are considered “unmanned aircraft” under FAA rules and regulations and statutory (legal) definitions. The FAA has made similar determinations for “tethered” unmanned aircraft where the UA is tethered with a cable to a fixed point on the ground or another ground-based object (such as a vehicle). These tethered unmanned aircraft are also subject to all the FAA rules and regulations applicable to unmanned aircraft. Since the control line model aircraft is considered an “aircraft”, the operator must comply with all TFRS applicable to “aircraft” or “all aircraft”.

So, why do I bring this up again, you might ask.......... ?

Well, today, I got an Email from the AMA about a TFR in my area (President Biden will be visiting a decommissioned coal fired power station in a town near me) . Please take note of the wording regarding C/L and FF operations in this excerpt from the AMA's Email, which are directly in contradiction to the FAA's Email.

"An FAA NOTAM/TFR has been issued for Warwick, RI and the surrounding areas for Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:45 p.m. EDT through 5:15 p.m. EDT. The TFR was issued for VIP movement in the area. Outdoor radio control model aircraft operations are prohibited within a 30 nm radius for the specific times listed below. Control Line and Free Flight modelers should use discretion when operating within the TFR. Please note that TFRs are subject to change with very short notice. Check back often for the most current NOTAM/TFR information."

Now, having dealt extensively with the FAA in my past (pre retired) life, I know that they hold all the cards in this, and I have to go with their version, NO model aircraft ops during a TFR !!!!! "Use Discretion" ?????? Really? shiznizzles gonna get real interesting the day someone's free flight model cuts the path of Air Force One, and the FAA gets wind of the AMA's "Use Discretion" position VS what the FAA actually intends.

Just figured I'd post up something topical, to put the ol "Crickets" thread to bed for a while........



Old 07-20-2022, 10:22 AM
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Checking pantry for popcorn….

Astro
Old 07-20-2022, 10:24 AM
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PS, this was my original question to the FAA ;

"Hi, I have a question regarding UAS . Are "Control Line" model airplanes (typically flown on 100 foot or less steel lines attached to a plastic handle held in the pilot's hand) subject to the same regulations as Remote Controlled UAS are? My question centers on TFRs specifically, are control line models grounded during a TFR that grounds all RC UAS ?"


I figure if anyone's gonna run up and give the Hornet's nest a big ol kick, , might as well be me...........
Old 07-20-2022, 12:41 PM
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I'm looking for hot dogs, buns and root beer on this one myself.
Old 07-20-2022, 02:35 PM
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I don't fly control line but if I did I would not worry about a TFR, A control line plane is in no way a potential threat to anything like a unmanned craft could be. I would use common sense
and not fly if I thought I would at any time be within half a mile of where the VIP's might be.
Old 07-21-2022, 08:40 AM
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scale only 4 me
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Haha,, when the Men in Black rush the CL circle and tackle an old guy for flying during a TFR, I'll celebrate because all the world's real problems have been solved


Yes,,, More Common Sense please
Old 07-21-2022, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by scale only 4 me View Post
Haha,, when the Men in Black rush the CL circle and tackle an old guy for flying during a TFR, I'll celebrate because all the world's real problems have been solved


Yes,,, More Common Sense please
Yep, I figured there would be a joke or two about this, but really, on some level, shouldn't the AMA and the FAA be working from the same playbook?
Old 07-21-2022, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by ira d View Post
I don't fly control line but if I did I would not worry about a TFR, A control line plane is in no way a potential threat to anything like a unmanned craft could be. I would use common sense
and not fly if I thought I would at any time be within half a mile of where the VIP's might be.
Hi Ira,

I absolutely 100% agree, a control line model aircraft is not a threat to anyone on a level to need to be grounded by a TFR. I honestly thought the FAA's answer would be the same. But, it wasn't, the FAA is claiming domain over CL as well as RC. Doncha think it'd be a good issue for our organization to clear up with the FAA? I'd be more than happy to send a copy of the entire Email to any AMA official who wanted to contact the FAA about what they sent me. I know at least one AMA official has seen this post, I saw his name on the"Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread" list yesterday shortly after I created this thread.......

Last edited by init4fun; 07-21-2022 at 12:16 PM. Reason: Damn typos :()
Old 07-21-2022, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Yep, I figured there would be a joke or two about this, but really, on some level, shouldn't the AMA and the FAA be working from the same playbook?
'

Well,, personally I think the AMA should do nothing more that forward exactly what the FAA says in the TFR announcements.
Old 07-21-2022, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by scale only 4 me View Post
'

Well,, personally I think the AMA should do nothing more that forward exactly what the FAA says in the TFR announcements.
Agreed.

Now, since I've not seen even one TFR where the FAA says " Control Line and Free Flight modelers should use discretion when operating within the TFR" I'd say that's a pretty big disconnect between how the FAA, VS the AMA, interprets the FAA's TFR directives........
Old 07-21-2022, 12:17 PM
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I really don't think the FAA is concerned about CL flying or even RC operations in most cases but just want the power shut down any operation they deem a threat. I would venture to guess that
on many days there are a lot of RC operations in place when there are TFR's in place and the FAA don't even know about the RC flying.
Old 07-21-2022, 12:32 PM
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It’s the FAA’s job to be concerned about it, why else would they have corresponded with init?

There are plenty of folks dealing dope that Law Enforcement is not aware of, does that make it okay?

Astro

Old 07-23-2022, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by scale only 4 me View Post
'

Well,, personally I think the AMA should do nothing more that forward exactly what the FAA says in the TFR announcements.
I'd go one better, and have AMA tell members that it per regulation, it is their individual responsibility to check official government TFR sites, read and interpret the restrictions IAW law and regulation.

Similar to the CL question above, I've asked the FAA if a TFR that applies to "all aircraft" applies to "model aircraft" whether or not the term "model aircraft" is used or not. It won't come as a surprise here that FAA said, YES. A TFR that applies to "all aircraft (emphasis added)" applies to "model aircraft" whether the latter term is used or not. The stated reason is simple: "model aircraft" are type of aircraft ... thus included in "all."

I've noted this to AMA VP, AMA Safety folks, and the AMA ED. And yet AMA has yet to clearly state this to members. One has to wonder why they're allowing members to shoulder the risk.
Old 07-23-2022, 06:23 AM
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As witnessed in the other thread here, it is clear to me that the good ole boy network of AMA loyalists have not achieved a degree of comprehension that allows them to be able to understand what the FAA is communicating, despite their black and white written words. Might just be their cognitive bias. Funny how some here would be ecstatic to be recognized as, "pilots of aircraft that are regulated by the FAA", but also want to scoff at FAA rules as if they do not apply to their toys.

Astro
Old 07-23-2022, 08:26 AM
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With me it is more a consideration of covering my butt should the unthinkabe happen. In my C/L question yes indeed, the chances of someone getting hurt are just about nil, but it's that "just about" that gives me reason to ask questions. People HAVE been hurt in the past by CL model aircraft, what if I was that one guy unlucky enough to have my bellcrank break and someone get hit by my C/L plane during a TFR , great now I'm doubly screwed, not only did someone get injured but I wasn't even supposed to be flying then, already breaking one rule before the accident happened ......

Old 07-23-2022, 12:26 PM
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wrong scenario for the accident:

flying just a tad too close to the overhead wires, and manage to shut down the whole local electric grid when your wires take too long to vaporize, resulting in security lapses and openings for folks with malicious intent to get to some of our "protected" folk.'

that is something that could happen.

would be a real shame to be responsible for that.
Old 07-26-2022, 08:17 AM
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I never understood when the FAA first sent out the proposed rule making, why they restricted control line as an un-manned aircraft, yet allowed free flight. I guess it was once you released a free flight model, it was no longer controlled by an operator?


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