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RDQ & RemoteID: Appeals Court Decision

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RDQ & RemoteID: Appeals Court Decision

Old 08-11-2022, 09:26 AM
  #76  
scottrc
 
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Another Dues increase? After the way AMA seemed to leave out traditional RC modelers in their talks with the FAA, why would they deserve a raise?
Old 08-11-2022, 09:33 AM
  #77  
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AMA wants to really help us, then sell off all that land in Muncie and drop all the overhead, then open an office in DC and start lobbying.
Old 08-11-2022, 09:39 AM
  #78  
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And use the proceeds to buy more FRIA’s across the country to assure they have at least a few paying members in a few years that have a reason to pay their salaries.

Astro
Old 08-11-2022, 09:51 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by scottrc View Post
AMA wants to really help us, then sell off all that land in Muncie and drop all the overhead, then open an office in DC and start lobbying.
Now you know that isn't going to happen. The "powers that be" won't be able to do their jobs(not that they are really doing their jobs anyway) without having a facility that can house all the staff(that doesn't do their jobs efficiently either) and perks that Muncie has to offer. If I was to compare Muncie to the Hydroplane and Raceboat Museum, the differences are HUGE!!!! While Muncie claims to need office space for the staff to "work", a museum for whatever and a huge open area to fly in. the HARM has:
  • a single building of 3000-4000 square feet
  • an office area for its staff of 4 people that handle donations, paying expenses, coordinating what assets are being sent where, etc
  • an engine rebuild shop that is no bigger than a two car garage where they maintain and build the engines used to power the boats
  • a boat repair and maintenance area roughly 40X80 feet where boats are repaired, restored and even built from scratch, such as the brand new replica 1979 Squire that was just completed in May
  • a reference area that has volumes of books and pictures of the boats over the past 80+ years
  • a display area that houses many famous boats, trophies, displays and a souvenir/gift shop
  • almost everything they do done by VOLUNTEERS
Old 08-11-2022, 10:38 AM
  #80  
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2020 Total Revenue $9,207,922

Key Employees and Officers Compensation
CHAD BUDREAU (EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR) ..................... $121,988
JOYCE HAGER (ASSISTANT EXECUTIVE DIRECT) ........... $108,903
VICKI BARKDULL (COMPTROLLER) .................................$79,693
RICH HANSON (PRESIDENT) ..............................................$0
KEITH SESSIONS (CFO) .................................................. ..$0
ANDREW ARGENIO (VICE PRESIDENT-DISTRICT 1) ..............$0
ERIC WILLIAMS (VICE PRESIDENT-DISTRICT 2) ..................$0
MARK RADCLIFF (VICE PRESIDENT-DISTRICT 3) ..................$0
JAY MARSH III (VICE PRESIDENT-DISTRICT 4) .....................$0
RANDY CAMERON (EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT)..................$0
GARY HIMES (VICE PRESIDENT-DISTRICT 6) .......................$0
TIM JESKY (VICE PRESIDENT-DISTRICT 7) ..........................$0
LAWRENCE HARVILLE (VICE PRESIDENT-DISTRICT 8) ...........$0
JIM TILLER (VICE PRESIDENT-DISTRICT 9) ...........................$0
LAWRENCE TOUGAS (VICE PRESIDENT-DISTRICT 10) ,,,,,,,,,,,,$0
GREG PRINCIPATO (NAA REPRESENTATIVE) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,$0
PHIL TALLMAN (VICE PRESIDENT-DISTRICT 11) ....................$0
ANDREW GRIFFITH (VICE PRESIDENT-DISTRICT 5)................$0

On the bright side AMA quit paying Rich Hanson a salary.
Old 08-11-2022, 11:53 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
And use the proceeds to buy more FRIA’s across the country to assure they have at least a few paying members in a few years that have a reason to pay their salaries.
They'll never do that until it's too late.

By FAA designating FRIAs, the FAA opens themselves to being target of complaints for overflights of neighboring property, crashes on neighboring property, etc. If they're not going to do it already, I think it's a matter of time until FAA limits FRIAs to the airspace directly over land under direct and exclusive control of the FRIA requester. How many AMA clubs don't own the land over which their members fly? Every single one of them is a likely target for encroachment claims ... unlawful "take" of airspace similar to what Causby claimed.

To think that every one of those suits will fail, especially in the low altitude environment, is fanciful.

Thus owning land is important.
Old 08-11-2022, 01:02 PM
  #82  
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I think you under estimate how many clubs do have and enforce boundaries. Every club that I have been involved with did and the 4 I currently have membership certainly do.
Old 08-11-2022, 02:52 PM
  #83  
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It's now been 10 days since I sent emails asking these RC radio manufactures if they planned on selling Remote ID modules.

Spektrum
Futaba
Jeti
Sanwa/Airtonics
FrSky
JR PROPO
Spektrum
Horizon Hobby/E-Flight
Radiolink
FlyskyRC
VolantixRC
HobbyKing, Turnigy and Orange
RadioMaster

All I got back were HobbyKing's, We don't sell them, RadioMaster's, We may sell them, and Radiolink's completely wrong interpretation of Remote ID
that does not apply to only plane they sell, their 206 gram R560, a tiny "free-style" profile plane (and FPV, with sea sickness guaranteed well before
the claimed 2 Km range). Radiolink I had not heard of. All I know about RadioMaster is it's recommended by FPV loon xjet. None of the rest replied.

speedracerntrixie I follow some of the your discussions on RCGroups. All of the same suspects. The ones who spar with you most are the FPV nuts
(AMA
apologists). Some also are as dumb as rocks. I remember being shocked when one guy in particular let on that he was a full-size pilot a while
back. I wouldn't have pegged him to have been able to pass the written.

I don't suppose I could ever be rehabilitated enough to go back to RCGroups, but it would be nice to go back just to rub some of their noses in it. In 2014
I posted a photo of a DJI Matrice drone with the caption, "Death Star" (for RC), with a photo of an ultralight next to it. Back then it was all the rage to cite
the fact that ultralights had less regulations than RC (because the pilot has some skin in the game moron and if he screws up he's dead). The few who
tried to raise the alarm that linking RC model airplanes with drones was suicide for the hobby were relentlessly shouted down by the FPV mob (AMA mob)
on RCGroups

Last edited by ECHO24; 08-11-2022 at 03:51 PM.
Old 08-11-2022, 05:14 PM
  #84  
speedracerntrixie
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I really haven’t been much of a contributor to the Advocacy forum for over a year. Mostly do the composites and science forums. It’s not much different then here, everyone screaming that the sky is falling. Usually there is a core group with the same frame of mind set, same as here. Typically guys screaming about how horrible the AMA is, clubs are all run by jerks, no rules, etc etc. I find that the majority of guys making all the negative comments either no longer participate, have never participated or did participate in a club but didn’t get their butt kissed enough and didn’t receive the appreciation the thought they were entitled.

Here on RCU overall we have pretty good participation overall yet by comparison the AMA forum is typically around 10 guys. With the amount of traffic RCU gets on a daily basis, if all this was as big a problem as people make it out to be don’t you think there would be more the the same 10 guys contributing to this forum?
Old 08-11-2022, 06:07 PM
  #85  
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The specific discussion I was referring to was I think last may. A club was demanding proof of FAA registration. You were arguing that clubs did not have access
to the FAA database and therefore it no only is not something a club should be checking there was no way to verify that information. Then the usual sniping. They
were about to have a sailplane meet and you called the club officer out because they were obviously going to bust 400'.

Participation doesn't necessarily correlate to the weight of a problem. Aren't AMA elections decided by only a few thousand members voting? The only thing that
would perk up everyone is something like embezzlement or some other serious disruption. The frog is boiling slowly. From 2016 to 2020 AMA's total revenue
dropped from 10.3M to 9.2M. Inflation adjusted that's close to 20% in 4 years. That's not sustainable.

There's enough gear around to last the flying lifetime of the current crop of geezers. AMA's website lists the average age of members as 37 (breaks out laughing).
Maybe in 1965. Anecdotally it's 60. When they're gone they're gone.
Old 08-11-2022, 06:33 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by ECHO24 View Post
Participation doesn't necessarily correlate to the weight of a problem. Aren't AMA elections decided by only a few thousand members voting?
I totally agree and have been outspoken about that every time the, "Same old minority of whiners here" statement appears. It is very clear to me that the vast majority of AMA membership is apathetic and largely disengaged with the programs and day-to-day initiatives and operations in Muncie. From the time I joined the AMA (30 plus years ago), it was clear that in each club I joined or frequented, there were a couple of gung-ho AMA guys, where the rest of the club felt it necessary to join only because AMA membership (insurance) was mandatory. I'd say fully half of club members had disdain for the rules and just wanted to fly how, when and where they pleased, although most had at least some understanding that the rules were necessary, most would not adhere to them if nobody was looking and I think this is the issue that Franklin has portrayed.

Astro
Old 08-12-2022, 06:24 AM
  #87  
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Astro, I would be interested in knowing exactly what rules were not adhered to when nobody was looking. I do somewhat agree to a point. Example would be that if I was the only guy at the field ( save for a couple guys within my circle ) that low passes over the runway or hovering over the runway would then be OK although technically against club rules. Obviously I wouldn’t consider those OK on a crowded Sunday afternoon.
Old 08-12-2022, 07:30 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Astro, I would be interested in knowing exactly what rules were not adhered to when nobody was looking. I do somewhat agree to a point. Example would be that if I was the only guy at the field ( save for a couple guys within my circle ) that low passes over the runway or hovering over the runway would then be OK although technically against club rules. Obviously I wouldn’t consider those OK on a crowded Sunday afternoon.
- Turbine flight over unprotected people/property
- Turbine flight behind established flight line
- Several examples listed in EC minutes from the not once but twice flight discipline in turbine community have been subject of EC discussion
- Flight at altitude prohibited by law (400' in class G)
- Flight in controlled airspace without a spotter
- Failure to adhere to AMA crowd setbacks

That's just ones off the top of my head.
Old 08-12-2022, 07:33 AM
  #89  
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Thank you Franklin but I was more interested in hearing about the examples of what Astro personally witnessed.
Old 08-12-2022, 07:52 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Thank you Franklin but I was more interested in hearing about the examples of what Astro personally witnessed.
Astro was referring to items that I "portrayed.' Besides, as such an ardent supporter of AMA I'd think you'd be interested in any instances where behaviors of members are demonstrating that self regulation has not proven effective - for example those twice subject of EC discussions.
Old 08-12-2022, 08:27 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Astro, I would be interested in knowing exactly what rules were not adhered to when nobody was looking. I do somewhat agree to a point. Example would be that if I was the only guy at the field ( save for a couple guys within my circle ) that low passes over the runway or hovering over the runway would then be OK although technically against club rules. Obviously I wouldn’t consider those OK on a crowded Sunday afternoon.
Pretty much all the ones you cited, as well as the ones Franklin mentioned, excluding the turbine ones, as it is rare to have a turbine at our field. What I usually see at the field is not a free-for-all-*****-show, but a generally lax attitude toward the rules, unless the safety guy (we all know THAT guy) is around and then I see folks awkwardly trying to comply. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I really care that much as I am always aware of my surroundings and do not put myself in unduly dangerous situations (I will pack up and leave if I feel I am in danger), but the things Franklin speaks of DO occur regularly and they will not serve the AMA well if the FAA decides to be more proactive with their enforcement of their rules.

Astro
Old 08-12-2022, 08:43 AM
  #92  
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I admit that there are some club rules I have witnessed getting a bit lax when there aren’t many members around. However I very rarely see that go into the category of doing things that put the field in jeopardy. Typically those get dealt with pretty quickly. My understanding is that with Franklin’s single example of a field in his home state being lost due to constant overflights etc ( justifiable) being used to claim that ALL AMA club sites are rampantly breaking rules is simply an embellishment. I can and have found pages of unlawful behavior by Naval Officers but would not paint all Naval Officers with the same brush.
Old 08-12-2022, 09:10 AM
  #93  
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I think what is important here is how the FAA will view the self-policing "laxness". The FAA does not allow for laxness at the full-scale level, so reason would have it that they would not look kindly on any laxness of their rules for sUAS either. Time will tell, but I think what Franklin is saying is that the AMA (and its members) stand a better chance of credibility if we mind our P's and Q's, than if we do not, and I think that is a reasonable assumption.

Astro
Old 08-12-2022, 10:15 AM
  #94  
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Agreed. In the long run it would be beneficial to demonstrate good behavior. Of the clubs I have participated I think overall that is the case, others may have experienced different. Like I said earlier, my extent of supporting the AMA is paying my dues each year, that doesn’t mean that I want to read anyones embellishments of what happens at AMA club fields.
Old 08-12-2022, 11:08 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
I admit that there are some club rules I have witnessed getting a bit lax when there aren’t many members around. However I very rarely see that go into the category of doing things that put the field in jeopardy. Typically those get dealt with pretty quickly. My understanding is that with Franklin’s single example of a field in his home state being lost due to constant overflights etc ( justifiable) being used to claim that ALL AMA club sites are rampantly breaking rules is simply an embellishment. I can and have found pages of unlawful behavior by Naval Officers but would not paint all Naval Officers with the same brush.
Be careful .... those Naval Officers were held accountable by the organization.

Unlike AMA, which won't even pull turbine waivers. I check the revoked turbine waiver list every month. Going back several years, I've yet to see a single name on it. That tells me that unlike the Navy, the AMA does not hold individual accountable.
Old 08-12-2022, 12:22 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by franklin_m View Post
Be careful .... those Naval Officers were held accountable by the organization.

Unlike AMA, which won't even pull turbine waivers. I check the revoked turbine waiver list every month. Going back several years, I've yet to see a single name on it. That tells me that unlike the Navy, the AMA does not hold individual accountable.
Well the ones that were reported and invested at least right. As a man with two daughters and a grand daughter I wouldn’t have put sexual assault and flying a model airplane in a reckless manner on the same ball field but if you choose to so be it.

Why the expectation that AMA should have pulled a turbine waiver? Do you have a particular individual in mind? How is the AMA to know about a safety violation that happens 1,000 miles away unless notified. Even then their SOP would be to contact the club to get more information. Club says they revoked the guy’s membership or suspended membership etc. IMO simply saying that they have issued XX amount of turbine waivers and haven’t revoked any is not an indication that guys aren’t being dealt with.
Old 08-12-2022, 12:25 PM
  #97  
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Like the old mental puzzle, "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
Don't worry over people fudging the rules at AMA fields. Soon no one else will be around to see it.

Old 08-26-2022, 04:56 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Well the ones that were reported and invested at least right. As a man with two daughters and a grand daughter I wouldn’t have put sexual assault and flying a model airplane in a reckless manner on the same ball field but if you choose to so be it.

Why the expectation that AMA should have pulled a turbine waiver? Do you have a particular individual in mind? How is the AMA to know about a safety violation that happens 1,000 miles away unless notified. Even then their SOP would be to contact the club to get more information. Club says they revoked the guy’s membership or suspended membership etc. IMO simply saying that they have issued XX amount of turbine waivers and haven’t revoked any is not an indication that guys aren’t being dealt with.

So what. A guy gets his membership to a club suspended or revoked. He simply goes to another club and continues his actions that defy the AMA's safety policy and club rules until he gets suspended or banned again. How many times does this happen? Until he can't get a membership with any other club or his turbine waiver is revoked. Which one will happen first? I think we all know the answer to that one.
As far as how the military deals with those that violate the UCMJ, it depends on the violation. The penalties can and do include:
  • written reprimands that will affect the future of the member in their career. A reprimand can and does prevent advancing through the ranks and how long that person can stay in the service
  • forfeiture of pay. This can be 1/2 of the monthly pay for a given number of months up to a total forfeiture for a given number of months
  • reduction in rank. This affects pay and allowances, advancement, etc
  • confinement of various types from being restricted to the barracks to jail time. This can also affect benefits such as housing allowances, food allowances, etc
  • discharging from the military. These can be of general, bad conduct or dishonorable types. They all can affect how your life goes after leaving the military, such as being able to vote, own a weapon or firearm, where you can work, etc
I have personally seen all of these applied to members of the military so I know they don't kid around with violations. I personally had a subordinate restricted to the ship due to "conduct unbecoming" while on liberty in Mombasa Kenya back on 10/13/1985. The guy was an embarrassment to my squadron, ship and the Navy while on liberty. He was restricted to the ship at the last two ports, those being Subic Bay(11/25-30) and Pearl Harbor(12/12-13).
To show how busy the Navy legal staff was on my last deployment, this is from the report of the USS Kitty Hawk for the year of 1985:
Legal Office.
During 1985, the Legal and Discipline Offices were responsible for military justice administration, command advice, legal assistance, and claims and investigation functions. The Legal Office provided legal assistance appointments and notary services on a walk-in basis to over 1,550 command and air wing personnel. The following legal and discipline office tasks were accomplished:
a. Military Justice (number of cases) :
(1) Executive Officer 's screening 852
(2) Captain's Masts 561
(3) Summary Courts-martial 113
(4) Special Courts-martial 73
(5) Article 32 pretrial investigations 3
b. Administrative Law:
(1) Administrative discharge boards 43
(2) Claims processed and forwarded 34
c. Legal Assistance :
(1) General advice 750
(2) Notarizations and wills 80

That was for a crew and air wing of 5500 men. Since the AMA claims to have over 125K, show me how the AMA compares to that when it comes to dealing with misconduct and rules violations

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 08-26-2022 at 05:58 PM.
Old 08-27-2022, 05:49 AM
  #99  
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As Franklin has shown many times AMA nor the clubs publish actions taken against members. Why? Franklin’s favorite catch phrase “ private dues collecting organization “. Much different then the military that is funded by citizens tax dollars. As a member of AMA since 1977 I have seen less then desirable behavior dealt with many times. Of course you having never been a member you would have no visibility of that.
Old 08-27-2022, 07:56 AM
  #100  
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Here is one example of how modelers are viewed by the public and how the MSM interprets the story. IMO, there are plenty "holes" and bias in the view of the neighboring landowner as well as how the article was written. I can see both sides and we all know the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but, as "unfair" as it may be, the club in question, as well as MAAC, really need to step up their efforts and reach out to the homeowners, the local authorities and the newspaper with documentation of all rules and processes the club and MAAC have in place to address the concerns. The club (and MAAC) should also ask the news outlet to then publish a follow-up article with said documentation and procedures/rules in order to publicly provide fair and unbias reporting of this situation, lest the reading public be led into false presumptions about "drone operations".

I bet most clubs and MAAC can't provide documentation of enforcement of their rules, which would go a long way to silence most of the publics' concerns.

https://www.ottawalife.com/article/f...lane-club?c=13

Astro


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