ECHO24

The FAA is moving ahead with Remote ID. In a filing in the Federal Register the FAA says some manufactures have filed their MOC's (read DJI):

"The FAA has already received some declarations of compliance from manufacturers who are likely to meet the September 16, 2022, compliance date. However, the FAA acknowledges that other manufacturers may not have sufficient time to adequately design, develop, and test unmanned aircraft and file a declaration of compliance with the FAA on or before September 16, 2022, because of the delayed acceptance of the means of compliance. Accordingly, the FAA will exercise its discretion in determining how to handle any apparent noncompliance, including exercising discretion to not take enforcement action, if appropriate, for any noncompliance that occurs on or before December 16, 2022. The exercise of enforcement discretion herein creates no individual right of action and establishes no precedent for future determinations."

ECHO24

There is no roadmap because it's a dying hobby mostly for older men.

ECHO24

With Remote ID I though sub 250 gram would be the thing (that and 3D printing). I bought a Lemon "micro brick", similar to Horizon Hobby's UMX but with 2 standard servos rather than linear. It's a full-range 4 channel receiver and a brushed speed controller under 7 grams. It also will run a brushless controller. The servos are tiny, not much bigger than a voltage pot on a buck converter. I'm not sure what size control surface they would operate. At this point it's all experimental. Meaning I've spent a lot of time just staring at it.

PilotSpike

Fooey. That seems to me to be confusing the cause with the effect. Maybe its a 'dying hobby' because the community has not been intentional about making it something for other than 'older men'.

How many of us that are active in the hobby have invited to participate or talked to a young man or young woman about rc models? Are we relating to to STEM? I think there is a huge part of our answer in that question.

J

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

Me, all the time. I have a meeting with a scout troop next week actually.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Earlier in this thread I reported on a public awareness event at one of my clubs. It was announced at our monthly meeting on Tuesday that we gained 8 new members as a result. All 8 are under 18. 3 have scheduled flight training with the club instructors.

ECHO24

People have been saying that same thing for years and the numbers keep dwindling. And now with Remote ID RC aircraft not equipped will be illegal to fly anywhere except a FRIA. So a newcomer needs to be old enough to drive and have a car. Those who could catch a ride with a parent or family member in the hobby presumably would already be flying RC if interested. They best place would be a school willing to apply for a FRIA, that is if the administrators would take on the responsibility. Some colleges have stopped school-sponsored nature walks over liability. AMA'ers don't seem to appreciate how many kids got in to RC flying with a cheapo Christmas or birthday present they flew in their back yard or empty field nearby. RC flying has to capture their imagination to keep at it long enough to gain the skills to enjoy it. They can get instant gratification with a drone. Though with Remote ID that's history too.

ECHO24

How many had club member parents? My son would go flying too if I built the plane, trimmed it out, a turn-key operation. Let us know a year from now how many are still at it. My son, all grown up and married now, has 2 planes I built for him hanging in his garage.

The guy here who knows the actual AMA numbers won't say. That should tell you something.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

One has a grand parent. Can’t say about the others. I agree that long term keeping these kids interested is going to be a challenge, gotta start somewhere and without a pessimistic attitude if we want them to stick around.

ECHO24

There will always be some level of interest in flying RC model aircraft and AMA fields. I was talking about the hobby as a whole and the effect of Remote ID and drones

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Let me put on my flame suit for this one. IMO RID will eventually need to be scrapped. There are zero indications that traditional model airplane suppliers are supporting it. A couple manufacturers with lower market share were asked about it and indicated in their answers that they were unaware that the US market was going to require it. I have directly inquired to JR and Futaba team members about it and have received zero answers. Horizon’s web site does not advertise any RTF or BNF models as being RID compliant. So what is going to be the next move for FAA if the equipment never materializes?

ECHO24

According to the people in charge, including the DOJ, the only place RC aircraft should be flown is at a FRIA where Remote ID is not required.
7 DJI drone are now Remote ID compliant. Modules are a temporary solution until other drone manufacturers get up to speed. Owners of older
drones that can't be fitted with a module will be told to go fly at a FRIA. The FAA's definition of obsolescence I think is 3 years.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Modules don’t exist, the FRIA lifespan I believe was dropped in the final rule.

ECHO24

Modules are not due until next September 16th. The point is it's about drones. Model aircraft don't need Remote ID, They're supposed to stay on the reservation, at least according to the powers that be, a "generous carve-out" provided by the FAA.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Agreed, however to the best of my knowledge there are no radio manufacturers ( Futaba, JR, Jeti etc. ) that have modules in the works. If this is true, one year to develop, test, submit for approval from FAA and FCC if required is a very compressed timeline.

The question remains, what is the FAA’s next move if the equipment never materializes?

ECHO24

Earlier in the thread I contacted every RC radio manufacture via email or through their website about RID modules. I received 2 responses. Only RadioMaster, I think it was, said they planned to sell them. That doesn't mean other mfg's don't have them in the works. They are simple devices. If there's a market someone will do it. If not too bad. Drone owners who can't upgrade with firmware will have to buy a new drone or fly illegally. 99% of FPVers do that now anyway.

DJI's press release today makes that harder for the FPV outlaws: " DJI always complies with the laws and regulations of the countries where we operate, and is ready to comply with the FAA’s Remote ID mandate as well. DJI customers can fly with confidence that they can comply with the FAA rule.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

In a side note, I wouldn’t make the claim that DJI always complies with US law. Around 2009 a OPSEC bulletin went out to service members and defense contractors to the US government to discontinue the use of DJI products. Seems when they had a software update that during the update all operating logs were downloaded onto DJI servers which of course went to the Chinese government. I’m confident that still happens with civil use as information gathering.

ECHO24

Anyone at all interested in how the RC model aircraft hobby became subordinate to drones, here are 2 videos with Brendan Schulman, AMA's lawyer vs. FAA in 2014. The first video is on the RDQ US Appeals Court decision a month ago: The second video is back in 2013 when Brendan Schulman was representing Rafael Pirker (Trappy):
The second video is at NY University School of Law. The key point is that the FAA in 2007 decreed that using model aircraft/drones commercially was illegal. That was the basis of the fines against Rafael Pirker (TBS). They ultimately lost in the NTSB phase for operating an "aircraft" in an unsafe manner. That was the first victory for the FAA, that model aircraft were "aircraft" for the purposes of regulation. But the take away is the allegation that the FAA didn't follow the proper NPRM procedures in establishing that commercial prohibition. Guess what, it may have taken several years but that is exactly what the FAA has done since, and at several points now backed up by statutory authority in various laws passes by Congress.

As for AMA and drones, in 2007 Rich Hanson became the AMA's Director of Government Relations. Hanson/AMA has been on every DAC, Drone Advisory Committee, from then until now. As to what happened to the model aircraft hobby, it is of no interest to the FAA in the bigger scheme of regulating drones. It is an "exception" to the rules until the old duffers die out.

ECHO24

AMA sued the FAA in 2014, arguing for less restrictions on drones and FPV flown OUTSIDE of AMA fields. Think about that. AMA spending membership dues on lawyer fees to file a lawsuit on behalf of drones. AMA has NEVER advocated for RC model aircraft flying outside of AMA. Nor has AMA ever taken the position that "non-advanced" model aircraft without cameras or GPS flight controllers should be regulated differently than drones.

The same AMA, in their official response to the proposed Remote ID rule in 2020, tried to back-peddle and claim AMA was strictly a line-of-sight organization. Too late to undo the damage with that lame excuse. Beginning next September 16th buy a drone if you don't belong to an AMA club because there will be nowhere else in the US to fly a model plane or helicopter.

Even if there was a market for model aircraft with integrated Remote ID, they cannot be made tamperproof. Model aircraft are made up of components. For that reason add-on modules, if anyone does make them, will be quickly scrapped. There is no way to prove a user unplugged a module if they claim it happened in flight. In contrast, no one is going to crack open their new DJI drone and try to reverse engineer it to find the chip with Remote ID and possibly ruin their investment. So DJI can issue that cheeky press release yesterday telling DJI customers they can rest assured their drone is fully compliant with all FAA regulations and Remote ID. While a year from now it will be illegal to fly RC model aircraft anywhere except at a FRIA.

That's the cosmic joke AMA and the guy running it has played on the hobby.

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

Yep, and the AMA simply had to promote separation of traditional model aircraft and drones, and I believe we (traditional modelers) would be in a much better position. You have to use your brain.

Astro

franklin_m

I don't think the other stakeholders (commercial interests, military, and DHS) really care if modules are not available. In fact, that may be part of their grand strategy. The market for them is so small, they won't be commercially viable. Therefore folks will be driven to (1) DJI type (with integrated RID), (2) flying only at FRIAs, (3) flying illegally, or (4) switching to sub-250. And switiching to sub-250 is by far the easisest for those w/o a driving "need" to fly larger stuff. Thus I predict demand for FRIAs will decline over time. Heck, as some noted, just the logistics of getting to/from will make it harder. Yet another reason making sub-250 look attractive.

ECHO24

Tim Mckay on YouTube is good place to start for traditional RC planes under 250 grams. He has several Guillows planes converted to electric. I'm not sure if this is the same company that put out the balsa airplane kits I built as a kid that you covered in tissue paper back then. Tim just likes these small planes. The rules now have some of us taking a second look. It's definitely different and tiny but RC flying is just a fantasy anyway.

franklin_m

Thanks for the link.

I've got a garage fill of big stuff, but to be honest I haven't been to an AMA field in quite a while. To me it was what I call "logistical overhead." By the time I pack the car, drive there, unpack and setup, it's the best part of an hour or even a bit more. With RC being just one of my hobbies (reloading, hunting, beer making, watch repair, among others) plus some honey-do list items, it's just not enough value/time trade off. So I made conscious move to small stuff I can fly in my yard on in a small park-let less than 100 yards away. But that's not for everyone, but it works for me.

I just think that the powerful stakeholders are rolling the dice that the module market won't last in the long run, and that the younger folks will go small (no Transpo to fields) and the dwindling die hards will go to FRIAs ... with latter becoming unsupportable due to declining membership.

ECHO24

You have the numbers. Give us the breakdown of paid full members, Park Pilot Program members, under 19 years-old, seniors, family members, and honorary members.

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

If you're a member, go ahead and give your VP a call.