Go Back  RCU Forums > RC Airplanes > AMA Discussions
Reload this Page >

Time for the AMA to step up

Notices
AMA Discussions Discuss AMA policies, decisions & any other AMA related topics here.

Time for the AMA to step up

Old 05-02-2023, 05:18 AM
  #1  
Lifer
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Lifer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 4,504
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes on 22 Posts
Default Time for the AMA to step up

Time for the AMA to step up and get involved in the real-world needs of its members. I saw an ad for Remote ID devices on page 51 of the current issue of Model Aviation. I checked out the device and learned it is easy to operate, runs 2 hours on a charge and would serve its intended purpose. Then I checked the price...$299.

I promise that the law would be greatly ignored at this price. The AMA needs to get together with its industry partners and come up with a device in the $30 range if they want compliance with this requirement.

Any thoughts?
Old 05-02-2023, 06:00 AM
  #2  
speedracerntrixie
My Feedback: (29)
 
speedracerntrixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Happy Valley, Oregon
Posts: 9,426
Received 160 Likes on 137 Posts
Default

Thoughts? Misplaced anger?

How do you suppose AMA is going to facilitate having any manufacturers to produce a RID module at a loss?

Last edited by speedracerntrixie; 05-02-2023 at 06:05 AM.
Old 05-02-2023, 06:32 AM
  #3  
Lifer
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Lifer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 4,504
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes on 22 Posts
Default

I'm not convinced that the device needs to be complicated nor expensive.
Old 05-02-2023, 07:37 AM
  #4  
speedracerntrixie
My Feedback: (29)
 
speedracerntrixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Happy Valley, Oregon
Posts: 9,426
Received 160 Likes on 137 Posts
Default

Lots of things to consider with a transmitting device. It must meet standards of the FAA and FCC possibly others. Getting things qualified can be time consuming and expensive. Those costs need to be absorbed by the end user. We are talking about a very limited market as well. What I see happening is come September the prices will still be above $200 possibly prompting the FAA to push the date for a second time.
Old 05-02-2023, 08:48 AM
  #5  
BarracudaHockey
My Feedback: (11)
 
BarracudaHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 26,674
Received 312 Likes on 252 Posts
Default

My personal opinion, there's going to be some shaking out between now and the deadline.

I'm curious what you think the AMA needs to be doing though. We recently held a round table discussion with most of the radio manufacturers so its not like we are ignoring the issue. We have told the FAA from the beginning that price of any module will be a major factor in compliance and originally they (the FAA) kept putting out that module based RID should be in the sub 50 dollar range.
Old 05-02-2023, 10:24 AM
  #6  
Lifer
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Lifer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 4,504
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes on 22 Posts
Default

Sounds a lot more workable than the $299 option they advertised in the MA ad.

One idea of a pro-active approach is to send out notice to many different sources that there exists a potential market for 100,000 of these devices but they need to hit a specific price point. Let the free market do it's thing. This is an opportunity for the AMA to take the lead in the situation. It seems to me that they have not done that yet.
Old 05-02-2023, 10:41 AM
  #7  
BarracudaHockey
My Feedback: (11)
 
BarracudaHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 26,674
Received 312 Likes on 252 Posts
Default

You say that but please refer to what I already said, the AMA led a round table conference call with all the major players and manufacturers and have been in constant contact with them since this started. You might not be aware because you're not in that group but trust me this has been forefront for many months. We are also are and have been working on our wants for the next reauthorization as soon as the elections were finished and we knew who we were working with.
Old 05-02-2023, 10:52 AM
  #8  
Lifer
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
 
Lifer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 4,504
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes on 22 Posts
Default

Good to know. Thanks for your input.

I am curious who all the major players might be? Seems to me that stepping outside of the traditional model aviation circles might be a good step. Contacting electronics manufacturers on the Asian continent might be the way to go rather than the same major players we deal with now.
Old 05-02-2023, 07:28 PM
  #9  
ECHO24
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,281
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Thoughts? Misplaced anger?

How do you suppose AMA is going to facilitate having any manufacturers to produce a RID module at a loss?
In an AMA podcast a year ago with Chad Budreau and (barely coherent) Rich Hanson, Tyler Dobbs said AMA was working with Remote ID module manufactures at AMA headquarters and claimed prices would be below $200 by rollout in September 2022. Maybe the hobby and therefore demand has died and those guys decided to bail.
Old 05-03-2023, 03:17 AM
  #10  
franklin_m
 
franklin_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 4,549
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
... the AMA led a round table conference call with all the major players and manufacturers and have been in constant contact with them since this started. You might not be aware because you're not in that group but trust me this has been forefront for many months ...
Reminds me of a quote from Ernest Hemingway: "Never confuse movement with action"
Old 05-03-2023, 04:58 AM
  #11  
aymodeler
My Feedback: (3)
 
aymodeler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 549
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

I would expect that RID modules will follow the same pricing pattern that every consumer grade electronics device ever made has followed we will see prices dropping once competition sets in. I am sure that the manufacturers well understand the relationship between pricing and market adoption and understand that a $299 price point will be a "no sale" most. The question that remains open what the actual market size will be. Is there be sufficient demand from non-FRIA flyers to create a market large enough to make a lower cost product viable?

p.s.: I suspect that the driving factor in determining price will be volume. The "features" in most consumer electronics are typically secondary to production costs when compared to production volume.

Last edited by aymodeler; 05-03-2023 at 05:01 AM.
Old 05-03-2023, 05:13 AM
  #12  
rgburrill
 
rgburrill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dallas, Tx CT
Posts: 2,831
Received 76 Likes on 67 Posts
Default

Remote ID is not required at a FRIA.
Old 05-03-2023, 07:01 AM
  #13  
aymodeler
My Feedback: (3)
 
aymodeler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 549
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by rgburrill
Remote ID is not required at a FRIA.
Yup!

Truth be told, there are probably more non-AMA flyers out there who won't be flying at FRIAs than AMA club FRIA flyers, and that population is likely to grow while the AMA club "FRIA flying" population is likely to continue to continue to "age out". But how many of those non-AMA members are actually going to be concerned about compliance?
Old 05-03-2023, 07:07 AM
  #14  
speedracerntrixie
My Feedback: (29)
 
speedracerntrixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Happy Valley, Oregon
Posts: 9,426
Received 160 Likes on 137 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by aymodeler
Yup!

Truth be told, there are probably more non-AMA flyers out there who won't be flying at FRIAs than AMA club FRIA flyers, and that population is likely to grow while the AMA club "FRIA flying" population is likely to continue to continue to "age out". But how many of those non-AMA members are actually going to be concerned about compliance?

Not sure I would agree with this. Based on what I have seen over the years, more club guys then not. This conclusion comes from real world observations. Granted based on what goes on with these forums, one could easily conclude the opposite. YMMV.
Old 05-03-2023, 07:31 AM
  #15  
aymodeler
My Feedback: (3)
 
aymodeler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 549
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Not sure I would agree with this. Based on what I have seen over the years, more club guys then not. This conclusion comes from real world observations. Granted based on what goes on with these forums, one could easily conclude the opposite. YMMV.
I think that club guys tend to socialize mostly with other club guys (and likewise with non-club guys). I am basing my speculation (and it is admittedly that) on things like the popularity of FliteTest and other non-AMA centric social media sites. FliteTest currently has over 2.1 million subscribers. I suspect that many are outside of the US and many more don't actually fly, but even if only 10% of that number are US based active flyers, it still bigger than the 190 thousand AMA members and this population is growing while the AMA population is continuing to decline.

p.s.; There is probably crossover between FliteTest flyers and AMA members too, but I still think the general trend holds up.
Old 05-04-2023, 09:15 AM
  #16  
franklin_m
 
franklin_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 4,549
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Not sure I would agree with this. Based on what I have seen over the years, more club guys then not. This conclusion comes from real world observations ....
Based on objective data, in this case AMA's own IRS990 filings and adjusted for inflation to ensure constant year dollar comparisons, hear what we see. The AMA membership revenue + AMA club fees + AMA event fees:

2001 - 2021: DOWN 27%
2011 - 2021: DOWN 13%
2016 - 2021: DOWN 21%

Add: Charter club fees dropped 7% just in the year 2020-2021!
Old 05-04-2023, 10:28 AM
  #17  
speedracerntrixie
My Feedback: (29)
 
speedracerntrixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Happy Valley, Oregon
Posts: 9,426
Received 160 Likes on 137 Posts
Default

Objective data VS one sided data. Riddle me this Professor, how many guys fly with you at your local school yard? How many members in your local club?

To assume that AMA membership is down but non AMA memberís remaining in the hobby as consistent is hardly an accurate accounting.
Old 05-04-2023, 01:20 PM
  #18  
franklin_m
 
franklin_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 4,549
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by aymodeler
Truth be told, there are probably more non-AMA flyers out there who won't be flying at FRIAs than AMA club FRIA flyers, and that population is likely to grow while the AMA club "FRIA flying" population is likely to continue to continue to "age out". But how many of those non-AMA members are actually going to be concerned about compliance?
Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
...Based on what I have seen over the years, more club guys then not. This conclusion comes from real world observations...
Originally Posted by franklin_m
Based on objective data, in this case AMA's own IRS990 filings and adjusted for inflation to ensure constant year dollar comparisons, hear what we see. The AMA membership revenue + AMA club fees + AMA event fees:

2001 - 2021: DOWN 27%
2011 - 2021: DOWN 13%
2016 - 2021: DOWN 21%

Add: Charter club fees dropped 7% just in the year 2020-2021!
Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Objective data VS one sided data. Riddle me this Professor, how many guys fly with you at your local school yard? How many members in your local club?
Irrelevant, as those are single data points and do not support any conclusions. Unlike the AMA filings, which are - as I noted - are objective data from the organization itself.

Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
To assume that AMA membership is down but non AMA memberís remaining in the hobby as consistent is hardly an accurate accounting.
Never said that in my post. And besides, even if non-AMA members remaining in the hobby fall at a faster rate, there's substantially more of them based on FAA registration data. And of course that doesn't change the multi-decade trend of the AMA.
Old 05-04-2023, 01:27 PM
  #19  
aymodeler
My Feedback: (3)
 
aymodeler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 549
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Objective data VS one sided data. Riddle me this Professor, how many guys fly with you at your local school yard? How many members in your local club?

To assume that AMA membership is down but non AMA memberís remaining in the hobby as consistent is hardly an accurate accounting.
We know that AMA membership is declining, that is a hard fact. Based on anecdotal data from the clubs I belong to, I also believe that a big part of that decline is that members are aging out of the hobby (as opposed to losing interest in the hobby or just giving up their AMA membership but remaining in the hobby). This is not a hard fact, but I think it is a reasonable assumption.

There is no direct way to know how many people participate in the hobby who are not AMA members, but one way to get a sense of the trend might be to look at overall trends in the RC aircraft hobby industry. Are sales trending up or down? That can't give you a count of participants, but it would probably provide a reasonably meaningful metric on the trends (i.e.; sales growing likely means more people in the hobby). Anyone know where to get that data?
Old 05-04-2023, 01:30 PM
  #20  
aymodeler
My Feedback: (3)
 
aymodeler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 549
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by franklin_m
Never said that in my post. And besides, even if non-AMA members remaining in the hobby fall at a faster rate, there's substantially more of them based on FAA registration data. And of course that doesn't change the multi-decade trend of the AMA.
The problem with the FAA registration data is that it is very, very heavily skewed by drone flyers who I do not consider to be relevant to this discussion. The vast majority of drone flyers will be buying DJI style drones equipped with Standard RID built in and will not require RID modules.
Old 05-05-2023, 03:45 AM
  #21  
BarracudaHockey
My Feedback: (11)
 
BarracudaHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 26,674
Received 312 Likes on 252 Posts
Default

Or the number of registrations that flew once or twice and moved on. I'd be interested in seeing the registration renewal numbers.
Old 05-05-2023, 04:03 AM
  #22  
speedracerntrixie
My Feedback: (29)
 
speedracerntrixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Happy Valley, Oregon
Posts: 9,426
Received 160 Likes on 137 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
Or the number of registrations that flew once or twice and moved on. I'd be interested in seeing the registration renewal numbers.

Last time I checked the renewals were about half of the first round registrations. We all know that regeneration numbers arenít a good way to gauge AMA membership VS non members due to a large number using drones as a photographic platform. Problem is there is no way to break it down so Franklin will keep running his farce.
Old 05-05-2023, 05:31 AM
  #23  
franklin_m
 
franklin_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 4,549
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
Or the number of registrations that flew once or twice and moved on. I'd be interested in seeing the registration renewal numbers.
^^^^^ - Everyone note above...
No comment about what he DOES KNOW, which is AMA's declining revenue trend (in constant year dollars) over the last two decades.
No comment about how every time they raise dues, the total revenue declines to less than it was before the hike within just a couple years.
No comment on the wisdom of raising dues on a discretionary activity heading into tough economic times.
Old 05-05-2023, 05:32 AM
  #24  
franklin_m
 
franklin_m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: State College, PA
Posts: 4,549
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
Last time I checked the renewals were about half of the first round registrations. We all know that regeneration numbers arenít a good way to gauge AMA membership VS non members due to a large number using drones as a photographic platform. Problem is there is no way to break it down so Franklin will keep running his farce.
And if it was half, that's still FIVE TIMES as many as AMA members (which revenue is also declining). And who cares about how they're used, in the eyes of the law and regulations they're ALL recreational sUAS. You're making a distinction as if there's a difference in the only terms that matter, the law and regulation.
Old 05-05-2023, 06:01 AM
  #25  
speedracerntrixie
My Feedback: (29)
 
speedracerntrixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Happy Valley, Oregon
Posts: 9,426
Received 160 Likes on 137 Posts
Default

Iím fully aware that if YOU donít care then you feel nobody should care.

Although you are incapable of seeing it, the FAA has been making the distinction themselves. By allowing events/competition that they are aware of exceeding 400í. By implementing the FRIA concept ( no RID modules ), higher altitudes for sanctioned events, eventually most FRIA sites will have either 800í or 1200í altitude limits.

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.