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Old 05-31-2002, 01:00 AM
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Let's be reasonable. If you are in this hobby---IT IS NOT CHEAP! The thrifty will spend $50 for a kit, $12 a servo, $50 for a receiver,$12.20 a gallon for 10% fuel! Are we complaining about a $6 per year increase.
Before I flew planes I played golf. The saying was "if you can't afford the game, don't play"
A true story--Wednesday I drove up to McDonalds and ordered a large Mcflurry--when they gave it to me, I gave it back and told them there was a mistake, I ordered a large. The manager came over and told me that was a large--things had changed. ----------You do the math-------
Old 05-31-2002, 11:31 AM
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Default Ama

I think the basis of the complaint here is that one of the bennies of being in the AMA is support for the local club in certain issues. This gentleman is simply saying that they have asked the AMA to help as they advertise and their requests have fallen on deaf ears. All he seems to be saying is why pay more when they aren't doing for this club what they have promised for all.

In another thread on this forum, someone told of his friend who lost a finger in a prop. ( http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread...975&forumid=59 ) According to this fellow, he called the AMA about insurance coverage and they told him he would have to lose a thumb before he was covered. Sounds silly and farfetched, but in the light of other AMA doings that we have heard of, maybe it's not.

I don't think our friend here is being selfish. Mr. Brown refers to the AMA as "YOUR AMA". Well our posters AMA has apparently let him down.

The AMA is far from perfect, but it's the only game in town right now..
Old 05-31-2002, 12:02 PM
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Default Re: gubbs3

Originally posted by Redknight

beside , being in a club doesnt mean you wont get shot down by a toehr members radio (we are getting shot at with a gun at our field)
I believe that shooting ANY aircraft down RC or piloted is a federal offense. dont call the AMA call the police... if they wont help, call the feds. Dont wait until someone gets killed by a stray bullet find that f***er and get him locked up NOW.
Old 05-31-2002, 01:01 PM
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Default Ama

I'm going to apologize right up front..... Right now... I am going to light off here so be forewarned.
Red Knight (and other like mindeds): Find another hobby! Tell you what friend, get thee to a local hobby shop, pick up about a dozen Herr Engineering/Dumas/Guillows/etc... stick and tissue kits, jap tissue, ambroid and rubber and have at it. Don't bother with the AMA. Look around your area, you'll probably find a group of folks who fly peanut and like scaled indoor stuff. No need for the AMA at that point.
There are DAMNED few leisure activities in which you can engage that DON'T cost money. Want a comparison? Try this one: The National Model Railroad Association (NMRA). No need for any insurance there! They have a building too, in Chattanooga. No frequency or noise issues to worry about. Not much of a chance of spending $1000 on a nice brass engine and losing it on the first run around the layout. Their yearly dues? $45!!! Without their monthly periodical, $23. Add to that the option of joining a regional group, another $6 or $7....
And do you think THEY spend less on THEIR hobby than WE do? Not a chance! And there aren't any ARF layouts that I know of either....
You might consider the American Philatelic Society - It's a bargain at $28.00 per year! All that money just to collect STAMPS. Guess what? You get a magazine there too!
Perhaps the American Numismatic Association is for you? It's only $39 (which includes $20 for their monthly publication, also not an option).

What am I trying to say? Give it a rest or find another hobby.
Old 05-31-2002, 08:49 PM
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Default Ama

Nik Rende wrote, refering to Redknights AMA expense complaint:

"Perhaps the American Numismatic Association is for you? "


If Redknight cannot figure out that $48/year is $4.00/month then he realy should not join a Numismatic society!!

Ed S
Old 05-31-2002, 09:02 PM
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If you can afford 500 dollars to get started in this hobby whats another 50 or so bucks. AMA and Club dues are about the cheapest things in this hobby. If you cant afford them then get out of the hobby. This hobby is expensive and not everyone can afford it, and for those who cant afford it, its simple, find a new hobby.
Old 05-31-2002, 09:27 PM
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Default Re: Ama

Originally posted by Redknight
If they do raise, then I might have to not renew and just get a few back yard flyers and fly in my backyard and at the city/state park.

thank you for your time
This statement is one of the reasons why a local city came to us to over see a R/C park. Great news for us, someone actually asking us to make an airfield rather then them telling us to scram. Thier concern was with the increased activity at the local parks with park flyers. They are concerned with liablities arising from potential accidents. Even as small as they(park flyers) are they still present a hazard if struck in the face or hit a small child in the wrong place. Then there is the problem of frequency control. Who controls that if just a "bunch" of flyers start gathering in a certian area. So by having an AMA structured club in thier city park and restricting all R/C activity to this field then they feel they have better liability protection.

Boy if this could get nation wide attention just think... AMA would have more people to help in other areas rather than having to help clubs retain or get flying sites.
Old 05-31-2002, 09:30 PM
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Default Ama

How 'bout paying the dues and not even geting the insurance???
I'm located in Honduras - Central America; some fellow fliers pay AMA to get the magazine but since we're out here insurance doesn't cover so I guess we're very altruistic

Down here things are easy: youbreak-you repair, you crash-you repair; you crash into something-you PAY;
you hit somebody (hasn't happened yet) - you try to help and get it to the nearest hospital (no 911 available)
You kill somebody- first you run for shelter (or the nearest police station) and turn yourself in and then deal with the consecuences
no insurance, no protection.

Things cost 3 times as much ans usually are not available, so we tend to be a bit conservative in flying since no ARF's arrive en less than 3 weeks and a 30% bird is almost un-replaceable since it's a luxury item you either bribe customs (you didn't hear it from me ) or pay 100% tax

So as I have mentioned before... you don't know how easy you have it.

Support AMA!!!! I wish I had something akin!!!

Best Regards,
Patrick
Old 05-31-2002, 10:32 PM
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Default Ama

Redknight, Only one thing to say. I think you need to go back to racing cars. I've never had to use the insurance but I know one member that did. You know what? I bet he'd gladly pay 100.00 yr. I have never held any thing higher than a C. D. rating and club president but I tell you right now i wouldn't do Dave Brown's job for 100,000 a yr. Too many whining crybabies! I remember back when we only had 7 frequencies I believe it was. Can you imagine if it was like that now.
Old 06-01-2002, 01:27 AM
  #35  
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Default Ama

Hello Redknight:

You are fighting a losing battle, so you can either adjust to what happens in the future for the betterment of the hobby - or bow out now. Take your toys and go play somewhere else.

I have been a member of AMA for 61 years, having joined in 1941. I couldn't locate my original AMA card, but I do have one from 1945. Let me tell you what it says:

Your model was insured for FIRE, LIGHTNING, or EXPLOSION when the model was in a building - up to $25.00, excluding loss caused by self ignition.

Your model was covered up to $25.00 if it was destroyed as a result of an accident while it was being transported in a vehicle, excluding bicycles, motorcycles, or motorscooters.

You had a policy for BODILY INJURIES TO THE PUBLIC , liability imposed by law, with a limit for any one accident of $500.00

You had a policy for PROPERTY DAMAGE TO PUBLIC, liability imposed by law, with a limit for any one accident of $500.00

That's it: For all of the above, and as I remember, the cost was $3.00/year. There was NO magazine included.

Now in 1945 you could buy a new car (if you could find one - there weren't any available) for about $1000.00 or less. Today that same car costs about $30,000 - obviously thirty times greater. On the same scale, therefore, the dues today for AMA should be 30 x $3.00 = $90.00/yr. BUT - they are only HALF of that - they are only $48.00/year - and look at what you are getting for that measly amount: good insurance in the millions of dollars (quite an increase over the $500.00 limit imposed in 1945): a very good magazine that covers all aspects of the modeling fraternity; an organization that lobbied hard and long for the many frequencies that are used for R/C; and the list goes on and on.

Regarding the Muncie establishment, I also will probably never see it - but that doesn't mean that I won't support it. The AMA is a GREAT organization, and we can be thankful that it has stood by us modelers over the years and looked out for our interests. I can tell you that without the AMA, we wouldn't be enjoying the hobby like we do today. So my advice to you (like JFK once said) is this: Ask not what the AMA can do for you - but what can you do to make the AMA better.

Perhaps you might start by ending this thread, and apologize to Dave Brown and the whole AMA staff who are doing the best they can do, so that YOU can fly your R/C airplane safely within the AMA established guidelines anytime your heart desires.
Old 06-01-2002, 03:00 AM
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Bravo Jim!!!!

When I read Redknight's initial message I decided to fire off a lengthy reply as to why we should happily pay a dues increase. However, as I read on I see that most everything I was going to say has already been said very eloquently by many other members. Thanks to everyone for your pro AMA comments, I am in complete agreement.

When I read Dave Brown's latest article I found it mind boggling that there is actually a contingency of members that wanted cuts in AMA services just to keep the measly $48 dues down.

Dave and his staff should do their best to be good guardians of our dues, and they should avoid waste as much as possible. But why in the world should they reduce their services and possibly jeopardize the future of the hobby just so everyone can save the cost of a trip to McDonald's? Give me a break!!!!

Everyone in AMA better be darn glad that the insurance is a cheap as it is!!! My other insurance policies (health, home owners, car) have just gone up 30% or more and I haven't made any claims !

Dave Brown, quite agonizing over this, just raise the dues and those who don't like it can join the Numismatic Association .

BTW, those that don't want to pay AMA dues can always go fly in a field somewhere by themselves and *hope* they don't get it trouble or crash into anyone. And if they do damage something or someone that $48 dollars will look pretty insignificant.

Redknight, regarding your issue with lack of response from AMA , I've been involved in many business relationships, deals, negotiations, etc. One constant theme I've seen is that if someone is assigned to get a response from another party and the party doesn't respond there is a simple solution. PUT SOMEONE ELSE IN CHARGE OF THE RELATIONSHIP! Simply put, some people have what it takes to get things done, others don't! Be persistent, polite and reasonable and I'm sure the AMA will help you.

Finally, complainers always send letters to organizations gripping about things, like the dues increase. To offset this those of use in favor of a dues increase should send letters in support of the increase.

KeithB
Old 06-01-2002, 05:00 AM
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Default Ama

I have attached a picture below. This was me at age 5. I now have three girls below the age of 7. My 4 year old is starting to fly and that means she is on the flight line. If something happens and a plane becomes uncontrollable and was to do this type of damage to my girls, you can bet that the pilot, being me or someone else, would be very glad to pay the $48 a year then to have to pay for the doctor bills on cosmetic surgery expenses. $100 a year would be a great deal if you had to pay for this out of your pocket.

The picture is what a dead stick .049 engine can do. The planes that we have now are alot bigger and faster.
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Old 06-01-2002, 10:58 AM
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Default Jim Messer

A friend of mine that I have made thru our club had a house fire last year, he lost over 12 planes and 5 radio system, all AMA paid him was 175.00 for his lost, not per plane, for all of it..

Yes I do Like the AMA, ok, dont get me wrong they have done alot, but if they contuine wasting money on things that they dont need, and keep raiseing the dues for the members then what ?!?

from one letter I got from Dave, they are thinking of rasieing the youngers dues, taking away the 20% discount on senior member's(you might get the 10%) and of course raiseing the reg members dues.
Dave says in his column that it is the Field owners and clubs that are making the insurance rate's high, ok, then rasie their membership dues, if they are the one's causeing all the problems

As for the 2.5 million doller insurace, you all might want to read what the fine print says, according to one person at AMA that I spoke too, the insurance is Suppamental, which means it only pays after your insurance pays.

A person at a AMA club base field got a huge gash in his leg from a runaway plane, the other person's insurance had to pay for the one person's ER bill and stay in the hospital, when they tryed to get AMA to pay, AMA told them they would have paid if he lost the leg !?!, hows that for insurace ??

xp8103, I am glad you dont fly here and I would never have someone with a disameaner as your's for a friend, I hope your not the prime example of whats it's going to come down to to fly a plane, if it does, then I will be happy to cruch all my planes and take up needle piont, this hobby is and was ment to be for all that want to do it, not just for a few that think if you dont have the big bucks you cant join...

Taildragger, the reason I got out of racing cars is because there is no place to race them here, no one wants to race, if there was then I would go back to racing..the reason I started flying is that I live just a few miles from our field (less then 3), and there are alot of nice people there...


If you all want to flame me for my views then fine, your doing a great job if it, but this in this post is just a drop in the bucket for all the e-mails I have gotten from members that support my veiws, and think of beters ways that AMA could save money.

thank you for your time and abuse.

please close thread, my last post here
Old 06-01-2002, 01:26 PM
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Default Ama

Redknight,

Why should the AMA pay for loss of your friends airplanes in his house fire? I have supplemental insurance on my homeowners insurance that covers the contents of my modelling shop, and the shop itself. I also carry a personal liabilty umbrella policy to the tune of around $600 a year for $5 million in coverage! If AMA increases the dues pay them and stop complaining. The orginization represents your voice even if your voice is not the status quo. If you got all these emails in support how come those guys are not posting in your defense here? Is it only the pro-AMA faction that has balls enough to speak out? I don't like all the policies that AMA has but they are the only orginization that represents our intrests so if you are going to be in this hobby pay the loust $48, and whatever the increase in dues is!

Otherwise enjoy your needlepoint.

David Reid
Old 06-01-2002, 03:36 PM
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Default ama

The ONLY reason I bought my AMA is for joining my club, otherwise I think its useless for where I fly at (my school). I think Redknight has a right to be mad. If your house were to catch on fire and you lost everything including your airplanes I'm sure you would try and get them back. If IMO AMA was a truely great company wouldn't they at least be willing to help? I don't know exactly all the rules and regulations but I think and I hope ALL the money goes for a good cause.

One more thing like someone said earlier. One of this guys friend started an engine and lost in pointer finger, he called AMA and said that he would have to lose his thumb in order to get coverage for it. How in the world could someone say that!
Old 06-01-2002, 03:54 PM
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Default Re: ama

Originally posted by Shortman

One more thing like someone said earlier. One of this guys friend started an engine and lost in pointer finger, he called AMA and said that he would have to lose his thumb in order to get coverage for it. How in the world could someone say that!
Thats pretty much standard dismemberant for all insurance policies. Unless you pay for or upgade a policy.

The whole point is having some organization and direction. Let us not lose the whole point of AMA. Its a hobby and to some a sport. Unless we comply to some degree and "help" support it
it no longer is a hobby(fun).

PLease direct you energies to to the right people, your district rep. and enjoy what has made AMA what it is today.

Time to go flying... hmmm, now where did I put my AMA card?
Old 06-01-2002, 07:16 PM
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Default What do you think the AMA insurance is for?

I think maybe the issue here is that there seems to be different views of what the AMA insurance is for.

It would never have crossed my mind to file a claim with the AMA if my planes burned in my house or if I was injured by my own prop. I've really never considered the AMA insurance applicable to this type of claim. For this type of situation I have health insurance and home owners insurance (though I'm sensitive to the fact that not everyone has health insurance).

I've always considered the AMA coverage more liability insurance in case one of my planes goes out of control and does damage to so someone else or their property. And for that matter, I probably wouldn't file a claim unless the damages were pretty serious and the injured party was coming after me for big bucks.

Let's say that my plane got loose in the pits and busted another club members plane. It wouldn't even cross my mind to file an AMA claim. I'd offer to fix his plane, or if he preferred pay for the damages. Hey, I broke it, I should pay. The only reason I'd call in the AMA is if this club member tried to sue me for big bucks. In fact, I've always thought of the AMA coverage as liability coverage for damages I cause to those not involved in the hobby, though admittedly I can see situations where I may have to file a claim for someone I damage that is in the hobby.

For $48 bucks a year (or slightly higher), we really can't expect the insurance to serve as our health, and personal property loss insurance. At least that's the way I've always thought about it.

KeithB
Old 06-01-2002, 08:29 PM
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Default Ama

The AMA is secondary coverage. If your house burns and your planes go with it, that's on your home owner's policy first and foremost. $48 isn't much money. Neither is an additional $6. If that's too much, take up a different aspect of the hobby. Paper planes from an 8.5x11 are cheap!
Old 06-01-2002, 10:51 PM
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AMEN!
Old 06-02-2002, 12:07 AM
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Default Ama

I live in Kansas...it's always hot dry and dusty. Finding a place to fly is easy...if you don't mind rough dry cracked dusty overgrown farmland. Finding a good place to fly isn't as easy. We have a local club with a beautiful manacured field, concrete runway, even a couple paved taxi ways. If I was told it would cost me $50 a year to use it I wouldn't blink and gladly pay up. The field is open to anyone with an AMA card, belonging to the club is not required. We use a radio. We are not even required to have an FCC license to use it...but if I was told we needed one and it cost $50 a year, I would gladly pay it. I already have car, health, and renter's insurance (a hell of a lot more than $48 a year too!) so I'm good there. The mag and liability insurance are a bonus to what is a very low cost hobby to get in to. It could be a lot worse.
Old 06-02-2002, 01:35 AM
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Default Ama

Well.....originally I was going to close this thread....however the last few posts have somewhat turned this around slightly. I say slightly though.

I don't want to see anymore comments about Redknight, and his situation please. He is totally entitled to his views and was wanting those that share his views and situation to write to the Pres. That's what this is about...not him trying to sway anyone into anti AMA, or knocking anyone for having it. It seems he's having questions and wanting to deal with it in what should be constructive manner here.

How about some ideas for him as to how he might raise some funds to offset the cost should the AMA fees go up. Or even a note to the Pres(as RK originally wanted) with your views, and ways/ideas so it won't be raised. Alot of us are fortunate that $6-$10 a year or more won't even be seen or missed, remember though...some of us aren't that fortunate.

I just don't want to see what might be viewed as personal attacks, and this could be an important issue for some, that's the only reason it's open for now. If you have some constructive thoughts on the subject we would appreciate those.
Thank you for understanding.

This is being followed closely for everyone's interests.
Old 06-02-2002, 03:40 AM
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Fair enough. Perhaps the easiest way to think of the $54 (or whatever the dues will be next year) is to make a kitty in small incriments. Maybe tossing in a quarter or fifty-cents for every flight a person makes this summer? Or just put in a dollar a week?
Old 06-02-2002, 10:09 AM
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Default Ama

I've always thought the AMA could make the Mag optional, cut the cost to those who don't want it, and save a ton of publishing money.
Old 06-02-2002, 10:49 AM
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I have belonged to clubs in times past who would help members who had a problem meeting their dues--(AMA and Club). It is better to offer a few dollars to keep a member than to lose a positive influence and knowledge at the field. The bad news is after that they never seemed to show up anyway.
Old 06-02-2002, 05:43 PM
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REDKNIGHT,I hope something or someone will help you change your views of this AMA issue.YIEK's!!! a fire, my planes and radio's are the last on my list of concern's, and prob. the easiest to replace of our household item's.I'd be to upset over the loss of unreplaceble family photo's and momento's , OH NO!!,OUR FERRET's!! gotta go Buzz

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