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Li-Po Batteries

Old 04-22-2004, 11:42 PM
  #26  
Jim Branaum
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

While I agree with you, the fact is that MOST of the time we hear about new rules AFTER they are already set in 'concrete'. Like the '04 SC. DB's latest is the only way I know of to get some sort of lead time on things. Photos of VIP's sure does not communicate that. . . .

Question. How does one build a sheetrock box with out a wooden frame? Or are we all supposed to be masters of some specialized trades and that is a stupid question? Only Llort knows.
Old 04-23-2004, 12:02 AM
  #27  
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

I fly just as many e planes as glow/gas, and everyone one of them powered by lipo's. I have about 10 lipo packs now, a triton charger, and no accidents with lipos in 1 year+ of using them, with countless cycles on the packs. Anyway, from what I've seen, 99% of the accidents are caused by careless people not realizing what they are dealing with. the same sort that destroy nicad/nimh packs are now using lipos, with the same safety precautions they used to destroy other packs.

treat them with respect, use good equipment, and common sense!


btw, read their rules located at
http://www.sdwingmasters.com/flyingrules.htm

they also ban gas engines, so does that mean nobody else should fly them? not really sure what the point was of quoting some club's rules....
Old 04-23-2004, 12:02 AM
  #28  
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Question. How does one build a sheetrock box with out a wooden frame? Or are we all supposed to be masters of some specialized trades and that is a stupid question? Only Llort knows.
I think I heard somewhere that you could build things and hold them together with a wondrous material called ...glue, I think it was.

My house builder stuck some sheetrock to a concrete wall with "Liquid Nails" about four years ago. Still there.
Old 04-23-2004, 12:26 AM
  #29  
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Hi Chuck

I fail to see how trying to educate people equates to a ban on Li batteries. The danger is that some will not be exposed to the information contained in DB’s article. We need another rule like we need a hole in the head.

As far as my not paying attention, it seems to me that I was the first one to note that rule 9 appeared out of thin air. The only other recent change to the safety code that I have a problem with is the one about autonomous flight. IF Hal deBolt comes back and says the AMA had no choice but to do something, anything, at the time, due to pressure from government bodies, I will accept that as fact. It may be there was little, if any choice. In conversations that I have had with the other EC members, that is exactly the way they felt. There was no time, they had to decide now, based on the fact the safety code was to be printed within days of the vote. Hindsight is always 20/20 and this may be another case where this is true… or it may not. If Mr. deBolt comes back and says he does not believe it was necessary, that’s good enough for me, as well. It's possible that this was a rule that was passed, knowing the subject would have to be revisited later.

I have re-read DB’s column several times now, and can’t see the threat you do. Give the devil his due.
Old 04-23-2004, 12:45 AM
  #30  
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum

While I agree with you, the fact is that MOST of the time we hear about new rules AFTER they are already set in 'concrete'. Like the '04 SC. DB's latest is the only way I know of to get some sort of lead time on things. Photos of VIP's sure does not communicate that. . . .
Question. How does one build a sheetrock box with out a wooden frame? Or are we all supposed to be masters of some specialized trades and that is a stupid question? Only Llort knows.
Perhaps Bob Hunt at Model Aviation has found the ultimate answer for photos. Maybe it could be increased to 10 per district per month and keep the membership happy. http://www.modelaircraft.org/mag/focalpt/index.asp

Pull 'em out of the AMA News section and display them on the net. Just think, your picture would be available to millions instead of the meger circulation of MA.
Old 04-23-2004, 12:46 AM
  #31  
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum



Question. How does one build a sheetrock box with out a wooden frame? Or are we all supposed to be masters of some specialized trades and that is a stupid question? Only Llort knows.

Maybe FH Llort will answer you soon
Old 04-23-2004, 09:05 AM
  #32  
ChuckAuger
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

ORIGINAL: J_R

Hi Chuck

I fail to see how trying to educate people equates to a ban on Li batteries. The danger is that some will not be exposed to the information contained in DB’s article. We need another rule like we need a hole in the head.........

I have re-read DB’s column several times now, and can’t see the threat you do. Give the devil his due.
If educating the masses was the only reason for the column, why not let Carl Marony do the article? If educating the masses was the only reason, why was the column not enough? Why would the issue need to be sent to the (EC? Safety Commitee?? I don't have it in front of me) for further consideration?

I'm not privy to EC goings on, J_R. AFAIK, Dave Brown never made any statements to this effect before his last Safety Code inclusions. If his steel is set on these batteries as a "safety concern", I'll bet he's not finished with them yet. While it might sound like a benign safety alert to you, it sounds like we are in for some more of the "slip it in now, pry it out later" we have been treated to in the last few months. Dave Brown appears to be the one under autonomous control.....of the Safety Code. Whenever Dave Brown states he is concerned for my "safety", my blood runs cold.

I can apply your last sentence to LiPos: " I have used LiPos (and have lots of friends using them) for several months now, and can't see the threat. Give me a break".

For crying out loud, lots of things are potentially dangerous. I'm stunned that Dave hasn't tried to outlaw props. The single most dangerous thing on a plane. Yet somehow, we members stumble on in the dark running props without Dave to shelter us from whirrling destruction. That, and banning props would kinda put a damper on the whole "Model Aviation" aspect of the hobby.

Stand by your man, J_R. And remember: The only safe hobby is one that doesn't exist.
Old 04-23-2004, 10:19 AM
  #33  
J_R
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

ORIGINAL: ChuckAuger

<SNIP>
Stand by your man, J_R. And remember: The only safe hobby is one that doesn't exist.
Chuck

Up until your last two posts, I had always viewed you as fairly well informed. You have now proven that you have an opinion and do not care to read or consider any one elses opinon but your own.
Old 04-23-2004, 10:42 AM
  #34  
ChuckAuger
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Oh please. I'm not going to set aside and not voice my opinion, and if my opinion isn't shared by you (or others), I can live with that. And I have considered your opinion, I just don't share it. Truth is, I hope you're right. I hope Dave Brown just lets the LiPo issue drop with nothing more than an article in a magazine. Do I think he will?? No.
Old 04-23-2004, 11:08 AM
  #35  
J_R
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Funny. I was not even referring to DB, his article, or your opinion of him.
Old 04-23-2004, 11:15 AM
  #36  
rmh
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Safety issues -
Opinions-
If one does not agree- does that imply that they have not considered the issue?
Here is another opinion from an expert.
(I really am an expert . maybe not a good expert but I am listed as an expert is various states for purposes of giving testimony on various accidents).
So here is my expert opinion.
Adding safety features and creating numerous rules does not increase safety.
It can easily create more unsafe conditions.
Example.
Various people have determined that if the government can make a "safe" car, accident damage to users will be reduced.
A very possible result of the "safe " car, is that it will be operated in an unsafe manner because th operator believes it is safer to operate.
You doubt it?
Look at the SUVS which turn turtle every time snow falls .
These things are hawked as being safe/sporty FUN etc..

They feel safe but as history shows - they have a higher incidence of certain accidents.
Why?
The operators easily feel they have "built in safety and control ".
It is a potential trap.
How do we really make things safer?
Educate people as to the risks -before allowing them utilize potentially risky products.
Is this where our hobby is going?
Absolutely not.
Money drives this hobby -as surely as it drives the type of cars we own.
In our hobby - the Holy Grail is a new model which can be purchased -then taken directly to a the field and operated by anyone.
You doubt this ?
It is true -not just an opinion
A real safety issue is how to handle the new modeler (?) who has no desire or sees no need to learn about safe operation. just buy and fly .
The model suppliers have very mixed reactions about this because they do not want to scare off potential customers.
Dave Brown is caught in the middle here -
How do we get growth in a hobby (and industry ) and still control risks?
Personally, I don't see a unforseen risk in LiPos , that is any worse than the other unforseen risks that abound in any hobby having fuels - engines radio guided missles etc..
Will education about product safety issues cure this?
For the people who actually think about safety issues - maybe
For others , maybe not.
The one sure thing is that the technology of LiPos has improved the performance of electrics and there is NO turning back short of replacing this technology with a different one .
-----------Which has no risks ----------
So rather than stop use or rule against LiPos ,
put forth some positive information on how to properly get the best performance in a safe manner.
Old 04-23-2004, 11:30 AM
  #37  
ChuckAuger
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

ORIGINAL: J_R

Funny. I was not even referring to DB, his article, or your opinion of him.
Oh, my bad. That's pretty much what my prior 2 posts were addressing. I thought that's why you referenced them.

You lost me there, J_R. So I muddle off on my own....
Old 04-23-2004, 12:17 PM
  #38  
J_R
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Anybody that actually reads the stuff posted in this forum is aware that not only am I not in Dave Brown's camp, but that I oppose a 4th term for him. I have expressed my support for Dave Mathewson, should he run, more than once.

That in no way means that DB did not write a column that I believe has considerable value to safety involving Li batteries.
Old 04-23-2004, 12:45 PM
  #39  
ChuckAuger
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

ORIGINAL: J_R

Anybody that actually reads the stuff posted in this forum is aware that not only am I not in Dave Brown's camp, but that I oppose a 4th term for him. I have expressed my support for Dave Mathewson, should he run, more than once.

That in no way means that DB did not write a column that I believe has considerable value to safety involving Li batteries.
Humble apologies for not reading all of your posts here, J_R. I honestly had no idea who you backed, but you sure sounded like a DB drumbeater there for a second...

And not a thing wrong with a column about safety. If it was anybody's column except Dave Brown, my skin wouldn't have started to crawl.

Please forgive me, and feel free to correct me, if I place you on the wrong side of the fence in the future..
Old 04-23-2004, 02:46 PM
  #40  
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

I am just glad turbines are out of the spotlight (for once)
Old 04-23-2004, 04:07 PM
  #41  
Strat2003
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

After watching that video, I'll be surprised if the manufacturers of those batteries aren't sued out of existence within 5 years! Enjoy them (safely) while you can.
Old 04-23-2004, 04:19 PM
  #42  
ChuckAuger
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Oh, that's nothing! Look Here!

Lipo fire?? Nah, gasoline straight from the pump.
Old 04-23-2004, 04:42 PM
  #43  
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Is this legit? I just got it, if it is I am sure everyone got it?

EMERGENCY SAFETY ALERT

Lithium Battery Fires
Lithium batteries are becoming very popular for powering the control and power systems in our models. This is true because of their very high energy density (amp-hrs/wt. ratio) compared to NiCads or other batteries. With high energy comes increased risk in their use. The, principal, risk is FIRE which can result from improper charging, crash damage, or shorting the batteries. All vendors of these batteries warn their customers of this danger and recommend extreme caution in their use. In spite of this many fires have occurred as a result of the use of Lithium Polymer batteries, resulting in loss of models, automobiles, and other property. Homes and garages and workshops have also burned. A lithium battery fire is very hot (several thousand degrees) and is an excellent initiator for ancillary (resulting) fires. Fire occurs due to contact between Lithium and oxygen in the air. It does not need any other source of ignition, or fuel to start, and burns almost explosively.

These batteries must be used in a manner that precludes ancillary fire. The following is recommended:


Store, and charge, in a fireproof container; never in your model.

Charge in a protected area devoid of combustibles. Always stand watch over the charging process. Never leave the charging process unattended.

In the event of damage from crashes, etc, carefully remove to a safe place for at least a half hour to observe. Physically damaged cells could erupt into flame, and, after sufficient time to ensure safety, should be discarded in accordance with the instructions which came with the batteries. Never attempt to charge a cell with physical damage, regardless of how slight.

Always use chargers designed for the specific purpose, preferably having a fixed setting for your particular pack. Many fires occur in using selectable/adjustable chargers improperly set. Never attempt to charge Lithium cells with a charger which is not, specifically, designed for charging Lithium cells. Never use chargers designed for Nickel Cadmium batteries.

Use charging systems that monitor and control the charge state of each cell in the pack. Unbalanced cells can lead to disaster if it permits overcharge of a single cell in the pack. If the batteries show any sign of swelling, discontinue charging, and remove them to a safe place outside as they could erupt into flames.

Most important: NEVER PLUG IN A BATTERY AND LEAVE IT TO CHARGE UNATTENDED OVERNIGHT. Serious fires have resulted from this practice.

Do not attempt to make your own battery packs from individual cells.

These batteries CANNOT be handled and charged casually such as has been the practice for years with other types of batteries. The consequence of this practice can be very serious resulting in major property damage and/ or personal harm

Safety Committee
Academy of Model Aeronautics

5161 E Memorial Drive
Muncie, IN 47302
Old 04-23-2004, 04:49 PM
  #44  
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Matt,
I got the e-mail also. Must have been a mass e-mail to all AMA members with an e-mail address.
Jon
Old 04-23-2004, 04:50 PM
  #45  
J_R
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Hi Matt

It's real. I recieved it too. Seems very similar to what DB put in his column.
Old 04-23-2004, 05:09 PM
  #46  
J_R
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

The AMA put out the "push safety notice" at the urging of Don Lowe, safety committee chairman. Dave Brown and Joyce Hager concurred in the final draft that has been sent.

The item is not a specific item on the EC agenda, but, will probably be a part of the Safety Committee report to the EC this weekend.

Apparently, there was substantial discussion about the potential hazard at Toledo, and that brought this all to a head.
Old 04-23-2004, 05:20 PM
  #47  
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

The reason I posted the video was to show that Dave Brown was not crying wolf. Lithium batteries do have associated hazards, and they are new, so not everyone may be aware of the hazards. At the same time, the risk they pose is acceptable if the users know what they are doing.

I would have the same reaction to someone pouring gasoline with a lighted cigarette in their mouth as I would to someone charging a Li battery in an unsafe situation. Someone who's managed to not start a fire after performing either act many times can get complacent, and defensive if you point it out to them.

At the same time, I didn't anticipate reactions like the Wingmasters'. I can see some replies here whose authors may have the impression that LiPo packs are flying incendiary devices. Others say they have a large number of successful LiPo powered flights.

What I want is that everyone is at least aware of the Li battery hazard, AND that there are simple precautions that will reduce the hazard to acceptable levels, as there are precautions to be taken with the use of gasoline, kerosene, and methanol.

What I don't want to see is club members who see the LiPo and say "I heard these are dangerous. We have to ban them", as happens with helicopters, turbines, and other things that result from the application of technology. The Li users also need to acknowledge the hazards and not ignore them. I have yet to see a LiPo user that doesn't acknowledge the potential hazard, but there will be a few, like the people who think you can drive an SUV like a car.


Edit: grammar correction
Old 04-23-2004, 05:39 PM
  #48  
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Hey Matt,
Didn't I see you charging your Lipos on top of your 5 gallon can of jet fuel?
Old 04-23-2004, 06:25 PM
  #49  
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Positive reinforcement at it's best --
Old 04-23-2004, 06:26 PM
  #50  
J_R
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

BB

Keep it up. The may be selling Voodo dolls of you on RCU soon.

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