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Li-Po Batteries

Old 04-21-2004, 08:26 PM
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jpatter
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Default Li-Po Batteries

What is the website that Dave Brown talks about in his column in Model Aviator mag concerning the Li-Po batteries. Our club is implementing new safety rules at our site. We have several e-flyers with hoods up charging batteries. I, for one, don't want to have an explosion next to my vehicle (and the bank, too). Any thoughts or insights would be appreciated.

Jimmy P.
Old 04-21-2004, 08:31 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

2manyrulesAlreadyStopMakingRulesGeeeeez[:'(]
Old 04-21-2004, 09:11 PM
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mongo
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

izat .net, .com, .biz, or .org, chris<G>?
Old 04-21-2004, 09:51 PM
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Phil Cole
 
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

To see why LiPos might be a concern:

http://www.helihobby.com/videos/LithiumBattery.wmv


Imagine this going off in the car next to yours, and the resulting fire spreading.
This was only a small 3-cell pack for a micro heli. Up to 16 cells is quite common for regular size models.
Old 04-21-2004, 10:13 PM
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Cajun
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

With Li-poly being the obvious fire hazard that they are, I'm wondering why AMA hasn't legislated them into oblivion[>:][]

Hmmmmmm, that's probably next[:@]

Cajun[8D]
Old 04-21-2004, 10:59 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Its fairly simple to make a safety container for charging LiPos. See the battery forum. A common crock-pot works. The ceramic is fire-proof and will contain the battery so it can't jump somewhere.

Since you can pick up a crock pot at a garage sale for as little as 20 cents... (more often about $2) Its not asking too much to have the guys charging LiPos to stick them in a pot.

*********

Does it NEED to be a rule? Only if the guys that use the LiPos don't see the logic and you start having burst batteries causing cars to catch fire...

Maybe all you need is the club to buy 4 or 5 crock pots from garage sales so the pots are available at the field and then inform the E-flyers that its a good idea to use them.

It wouldn't take anything other than watching that wmv file to convince me that its pretty dumb NOT to put the LiPo where it can't cause a fire if it bursts.
Old 04-21-2004, 11:07 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

I doubt that they are much more dangerous than gasoline. Just a matter of becoming as familiar in the care and feeding process. Exercising due care is important in any endeavor.
Old 04-22-2004, 10:51 AM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

I agree, we have other materials that are just as dangerous. Its just that some people lose sense of respect and become careless / lazy. Gasoline, Kerosine, Nitrogen, Props, snakes, second hand smoke, when will the legislation end? When they have us locked up in padded rooms and living like bubble boys?

ORIGINAL: soumas

I doubt that they are much more dangerous than gasoline. Just a matter of becoming as familiar in the care and feeding process. Exercising due care is important in any endeavor.
Old 04-22-2004, 11:02 AM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

BTW, did anyone notice the Atlanta Hobby Ad between post 7 and 8 advertising LiPo's??? That was good timing or what
Old 04-22-2004, 12:06 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Just wondering if LiPos need atmospheric Oxygen to burn or do they have an oxygenate incorporated within. My concern if the latter is true a tight container may become explosive.
Old 04-22-2004, 12:33 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

ORIGINAL: the troll

Just wondering if LiPos need atmospheric Oxygen to burn or do they have an oxygenate incorporated within. My concern if the latter is true a tight container may become explosive.
This link has some chemistry info...all I've found on it so far.

http://www.chm.anl.gov/compmat/lipeo.htm

Based on the reports I have read about various failures, I would say the battery is explosive "in and of itself".
Old 04-22-2004, 01:07 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

I am not sure about the particular site Dave Brown referenced, but, as usual, I have an opinion: Red Schoefield is THE guru when it comes to batteries. He has a site he calls the R/C Battery Clinic. On that site are many articles, some about safety, and the safety of Li cells of all types. The site contains more info than most will ever want. The site is at: http://www.rcbatteryclinic.com/

In the section entitled Lithium Technology and Safety is a link back to RCU that has considerable relevance to your question.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/reviews.ph...w&reviewid=101
Old 04-22-2004, 01:27 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Thanks. pretty much answers my questions. Them batteries are prety much plastic explosives I think I will start writing letters to ban those LiPo aircraft batteries
Old 04-22-2004, 01:36 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

If you look in the electric forums on RCU and especially on RCgroups, there is plenty of information on how to charge lipos safely. A lot less people will be charging lipos at the flying fields as they cannot be "fast charged" as quickly as Nicads or Nimh. I myself have 2 lipo packs for one plane and can fly about 45 minutes on those 2 packs with a high perfomance brushless motor. Therefore I do my charging at home. I charge them in the fireplace while monitoring them.

Sure there's gonna be guys who charge them on their hood and leave them unattended. I would receommend nicely asking them if they are aware of the risks involved and if they still don't change their method, move your car and warn the others. Common sense, not more rules.
Old 04-22-2004, 01:56 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

ORIGINAL: the troll

Thanks. pretty much answers my questions. Them batteries are prety much plastic explosives I think I will start writing letters to ban those LiPo aircraft batteries
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Old 04-22-2004, 02:18 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

careful there J_R...someone might think you have a sense humor.[X(]
Old 04-22-2004, 02:24 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

ORIGINAL: the troll

Thanks. pretty much answers my questions. Them batteries are prety much plastic explosives I think I will start writing letters to ban those LiPo aircraft batteries
Troll-

Check with these people http://www.sdwingmasters.com/officers.htm

As they banned LiPo batteries at the club flying site, I'm sure they must have much research to share with you that would support you in this cause.

Abel
Old 04-22-2004, 02:38 PM
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J_R
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Abel

What odds will you lay that those that passed the ban talked to each other with a phone with a Li battery stuck in their ear, or tried to document the "problem" by sticking a digital cam, with an Li battery, in thier own face?
Old 04-22-2004, 05:49 PM
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ChuckAuger
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Well, it was inevitable. Those little 3D foamies that everybody is flying these days are usually powered with LiPos. Dave Brown senses that they are not too dangerous if damaged in a tail touch (a Frisbee probably weighs the same and travels faster), so he had to come up with a different angle to get them outlawed/grounded. Outlaw the batteries, ingenious!! That'll nip this new form of fun in the bud and teach those 3D whippersnappers once and for all who is in true command. And I plead guilty....I used the 11oz foamy as an example of a 3D plane that couldn't be considered dangerous. Now Dave has taken me to task on the matter. He claims 50 reported instances of fires related to LiPos. At least he's going after something this time with ANY reported instances.

Damn I look funny in bowling shoes, guess I better get used to them.
Old 04-22-2004, 08:41 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Re: the container that is suggested... a covered crock-pot is far from being a sealed container. I would doubt that the more common size LiPo cells bursting could visibly lift the lid. Maybe one of the extreme packs that are starting to show up (saw one used in a 10 lb airplane at aPattern contest recently) cuold lift the lid... but the pack wouldn't fit in the pot. (he was charging his packs off to the side with them on concrete... with no flamables nearby. Looked fairly safe to me as far as fire hazards.... can't comment on the rest of the setup due to unfamiliarity with such large LiPo packs.)

ORIGINAL: P-51B

ORIGINAL: the troll

Just wondering if LiPos need atmospheric Oxygen to burn or do they have an oxygenate incorporated within. My concern if the latter is true a tight container may become explosive.
This link has some chemistry info...all I've found on it so far.

http://www.chm.anl.gov/compmat/lipeo.htm

Based on the reports I have read about various failures, I would say the battery is explosive "in and of itself".
Old 04-22-2004, 09:05 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Fh

My concern was not your crock pot recommendation...unless you think someone would wrap duct around it to keep the lid on.[X(] The crock pot might work well but many have a plastic lids and other parts nowadays and those type might not be a good candidate tho.

Why be so defensive?

BTW it occurs to me a box made from 5/8 sheetrock could work very well also…just a thought
Old 04-22-2004, 09:28 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

I know at least one of you guys uses LiPos-
the rest just sound like they are parroting what they have heard.
For those who DO use them - how many have actually seen fires? or caused them - or --
On th little foamies - the typical user has one 3 cell pack
IF- one uses a charger which is designed not to cram in all the possible charge as fast as possible - what is th real concern?
I have never had any of my --11 packs (that's eleven) even get warm except from flying them
and never hot .
I use a simple Hobbico Pro charger for all of the packs .
Cheeze -If you look up nitromethane on a web site - you may find that nitro is used in horrible explosives . and it carries it's own (gasp) oxygen.
How do we dare use it!!
A tempest in a teapot - excuse me --- a crock pot.
Old 04-22-2004, 09:48 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Hush Dick..common sense is not allowed here! Says Chuck with 12 fire free lipos (And quit trying to count his flights months ago), and who charges his in a 3lb coffee can with a plate on the top.
Old 04-22-2004, 10:58 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

It finally occurred to me that, since I had not seen the article by DB, it might be on the AMA site. Sure enough, it’s there. http://www.modelaircraft.org/mag/0604/president.htm

Recently I have complained that not enough information is being passed to the membership through Model Aviation. After reading the article, it is obvious that it is an attempt to inform the membership of a potential hazard, not an effort to ban Li batteries, but, instead, to make users aware of the potential safety hazard. This, in my opinion, is exactly what Model Aviation should be doing. I will leave it to each reader to determine whether this is a legitimate use of the magazine, or whether there is some hidden agenda.

It seems to me the answer to this potential safety problem is education, and DB has taken a stab at that. If you are one of the AMA members that do not feel the last dues increase was justified, this is the type of information that just might delay another. If we don’t educate the membership, and anything, including batteries, become a real safety issue, you can count on the insurance premiums increasing and the cost of AMA membership rising.

In my opinion, this is exactly what should be in the president’s column, and that of every other VP in the organization.
Old 04-22-2004, 11:35 PM
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Default RE: Li-Po Batteries

Good point, J_R, but maybe you ain't been keeping up on current events.

When Dave Brown decides to address a "safety issue", seems like it ends up in the AMA Safety Code first, then it's left up to the members to try to get the code revised.

While I am touched that Dave Brown is concerned for my safety concerning LiPos, I don't really need their use banned at any AMA field/event to safeguard me. You might.

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