YNOT

This is a letter my Father wrote the other day to the AMA.


Steve,
My AMA is 20236 so I have been in the loop for some time, also I am a hobby shop owner for 27 years in the Houston, Texas area and a great supporter of AMA.
The AMA continues to complain about not appealing to the new younger members and continues to try outdated methods to cultivate these younger folks, both male and female. Let's face it, having a model building clinic during the Nats or at Muncie is not going to attract new members. So what's stopping the growth? Try this as a MAJOR problem. The staunchy old AMA members that run families off the flying fields when they show up with one of the new "hobby type" radio control planes sold by companies like Great Planes and Horizon Hobbies, or Wallgreens, or Sam's, or Sharper Image, you get the point.
We try to tell the new R/C flyer about how they no longer have to spend $400 to $500 to be in the hobby, about how the R/C community is a great place for families and youngsters to bond around a common interest, only to have the great disappointment of rudely being asked to leave the field because the don't have an "AMA License". Remember that term "license"? We no longer use that word in the store and tell the customer that is buying a full function trainer that they should join the AMA for the insurance, not because they need a license.
It is incumberent upon the AMA to educate its members that we DO NOT need a license to fly these models.
Per the letter of the law, what about the R/C car groups that run cars at a flying field. One club here in Houston actually has an R/C car track at their field and host events, are they in violation of the AMA guidelines by not insisting that these folks be members of AMA?
Steve, it's really tough to grow the hobby when so many of these old hats are still running things at the local level quoteing antiquated outdated rules that are still on the books at AMA.
We strongly suggest that the new full function R/C flyer join AMA, but he has just spent $400 buying a model and wants to fly. For those situations we put them on a buddy box and fly them until their AMA is processed.
But again, what about the new guys with the $120 to $190 radio control electric aircraft they got for Christmas, and believe me they are being sold by the thousands around the country, are we suppose to run them off or groom them as the future of the AMA. My choice would be to groom them for the hobby, but we can't do that by insisting that they spend almost $50 to join the AMA just to fly a $120 airplane. But I do believe that if treated right most of these folks will want to stay in the hobby, buy a .40 trainer and join AMA. But if we continue to treat them like they don't belong we can not expect them to want to continue in a hobby that does not welcome them with open arms!
So where do these folks fit into the AMA, are they outcast or are they the future? The AMA needs to find a place for them in our organization. Maybe a trial membership, maybe a no magazine membership, maybe anything to not run the folks off for good. Give it some thought, a lot of future menbers are being put at risk of never joining the AMA.
Currently the AMA has a greater pool of future members as in any time in its history, let's not let them get away because we can't or won't move past "the way it has always been done". Times change and so must the AMA!
Thanks for your time,
Ed Dupaquier
AMA 20236
Trains & Planes Toys & Hobbies
Houston, Texas

tailskid

My Feedback: (34)

"Currently the AMA has a greater pool of future members as in any time in its history, let's not let them get away because we can't or won't move past "the way it has always been done". Times change and so must the AMA! "

Boy ain't that the truth!!!!!!

Jerry

Hossfly

Tony / Ed Dupaquier

While your thesis about the AMA and their old operations may well hold some truths and points for strong consideration, as one of those *staunchy* old guys, I would ask you to reconsider where you place the blame for your perceived problems.

First let's define "license". >>1 a : permission to act b : freedom of action << seems suitable for our AMA purposes. AMA grants a "license" for anyone caring to join AMA to operate within AMA rules, restrictions, organized modeling activity such as competitions, and several other things that may apply, including the insurance plan.
The AMA license -- on your membership card -- is simply that, membership in the organization, and permission for freedom to act within the AMA structure.

While the legislative law may not require a license to fly models, there are organized units within the AMA structure that have every right to require the AMA "license" to fly within any area that they so control. If you are concerned with Scobee Field, you know that Harris County Parks Commission requires the tenant club, Bayou City Fliers, to police that area for AMA membership for all fliers, yet the BCF cannot require membership in the club.

Therefore if BCFs fail to honor that HCPC requirement, there is a very good possibility the facility will cease to exist. Will that help your cause?
You might be very happy that the "Old Hats" are concerned enough and possess the self discipline to perform the job of insuring the rules are followed. So many of the younger generations have never had to exercise significant self-discipline and would have no trouble creating a situation that will remove a facility from the use of all. It only takes a few bad spots to ruin the apple.

Ed / Tony: You compromise your position when you allow your emotion to overshadow your lack of knowledge. Trial Memberships (https://www.modelaircraft.org/trialmemberapp.aspx) are available, and Youth (under 19) no magazine memberships are also available.

OTOH please keep the pressure on the AMA EC for updating the programs.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

The market place has responded to the AMA feilds in this country. A segment of the market has simply said, "no thanks". Not because of something Dave Brown said to them. Not because something that Dave Brown did, or thought or is thinking or about to think. Lets face it, a segment of the people in this hobby are only in this hobby for a couple of years . The parkflyers have grabbed many of those people away. And I still maintain that the population is increasingly urban and that it is very inconvenient for them to drive 30 or 45 minutes to fly. And many of the AMA feilds have moved far to the outskirts of cities to establish safe sites. Catch 22.

fliers1

Stating that crashing is all but certain doesn't help bring in newcomers.

Offering instruction only once a week might be another problem.

How about members ignoring newbies and spectators at the field and mall shows?

Perhaps keeping our great hobby/sport a deep, dark secret for the most part might be another reason AMA isn't growing. In fact, we lost over 10,000 members last year.

Could this be another reason: http://www.rc-float-flying.rchomepag...instructor.htm

CCR

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Yes, telling prospective pilots that they won't crash (what else are you going to say when they SPECIFICALLY ASK, "Do they crash?" which is a VERY common question), will help boost participation for a while, but it won't help RETAIN those members. They crash, you lied to them, so they're so disappointed and put off that they never come back. Don't give me that line about how, "they wouldn't have stuck with it anyway." BULL. Even today, $400 isn't chump change and for many people, it's still quite a sacrifice. Best to be honest with them and make sure they REALLY want to make the financial committment, rather than LIE to them to make a sale. If it means we lose some prospective one-time members, at least we have our integrity.

fliers1

"Stating that crashing is all but certain doesn't help bring in newcomers"

No one said anything about lying to newcomers, but when asked "Do they crash?" Of course they crash, so do full size planes, but no one tells new full scale pilots that "You will most certainly crash" in the learning process, which is what so many newcomers RC pilots are told.

CCR

YNOT

I just knew either Hoss or JR would chime in on this point

I personally am aware of the trial membership, however my Father was not until I told him, after he sent the letter to AMA. This angered him more. He reads MA on a monthly basis and was unaware of the trail offer and he thinks that the shop should have been notified about it too. Every year AMA sends the store all types of info, however no info on the trail membership.

I understand the reason for AMA membership at sanctioned fields, however I do not think it was the true point of the letter.

Dad's point is two fold. 1- Membership vs License. Most of the signs use the word licence and I have always known it as a license, but its not a license. License implys some form of testing. 2- Be nice to new people. I know there is NO WAY the AMA can do anything about this. However with it would be nice if the AMA did make some form of attempt to educate all members on how deal with new pilots and the ever growing park flyer pilots. Yea, I see the articals in MA here and there about this, however when was the last time AMA contacted the clubs on this? Of the 4 clubs I belong too, 2 of which I am on the BOD, I have never once seen anything from AMA concerning helping/welcoming new pilots to the field.

Just one more thing to bring to AMA's attention.

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

Like stated in the article, being an instructor is a long, hard, usually uncompensated job. I've trained for several years, it's usually rewarding but sometimes will make you pull your hair out, lol. Our club 'sponsor's the official club training people (I'm not currently one). They give them free membership. The club recognizes that #1, a properly trained person will most likely not injure themselves or others if they are trained how to operate the aircraft properly and 2, that they will learn much quicker and have more enjoyment from the hobby with proper help. Where I think the ama falls short is that they should 'sponsor' club trainers as well. Why not give official club trainers free ama membership. It would help promote the hobby, encourage safety thru proper training, (isn't that what everyone is going nuts about right now) and bring more people into the hobby as more people would be willing/encouraged to being a trainer. The ama wouldn't be loosing anything as more people would surely join as a result!!!! It would also show appreciation for the trainer personnel, many who give there time, drive long distances to meet with the trainee all with the expenses coming out of their pocket as they enjoy the hobby!!!!

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

With the rising cost of living and huge amount of money that is rapidly leaving our country, you don't need a college degree to see the truth. There are alot of people who come up to me [while I am flying] who tell me they would LOVE to be able to take part, but can't because they don't have the money or time to throw into something that looks like a pretty risky venture. They can see the fun we are having, but the commitment of time and money just isn't there. And I am showing them the extreme low end of the hobby most of the time[C/L and RC combat]. The average guy who could be out there having fun at an AMA field is already $8000 in debt to his credit card company and does not want to rearrange his financial priorities to make room for the AMA. I wonder what would happen if the AMA offered a "rag free" membership? $24 a year for a card and no magazine? I like it.

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

I was wondering that also but I think I heard for the ama to keep its non profit status they have to send out some sort of news letter/paper, so they'll probably never let go of the mag

J_R

YNOT

The by-laws of the AMA include, as a purpose for the existence of the AMA, the following statement in article II, Purposes: “(m) To license model aircraft and fliers thereof for competition.� Although competition is not as big a part of the AMA as it once was, the promotion of competition is still a major reason for the existence of the AMA. Call it a license, a membership or simply an AMA card, as you please. Letting people leave with the impression that the AMA is no more than an insurance company is counterproductive to the AMA. It seems to me that hobby shops, above all other places, have the duty to explain the AMA to customers. Without AMA chartered clubs, many RC focused hobby shops would cease to exist. Explain why it is a license, and go forward.

The subject of trial memberships is one that annoys me beyond reason. The EC made the commitment to trial memberships. Advertising was placed in other magazines, at hobby shows, and the money to promote the new program was spent. Why does it annoy me? The HQ staff, although fully aware of the effort, dropped the ball. The AMA website, which was referenced in the ads was not ready, although there was substantial lead time. The initial reaction to the program had no place to go for fulfillment, not just for days, but for months. Perhaps the new ED, who, among other things, is a previous EC member, will be able to set the priorities of staff members and have those priorities acted upon. Maybe we will see a realignment of resources to reflect the goals set forth by the EC, instead of having those resources redirected by non-staff individuals, who believe the crisis du jour is more important. Certainly, a part of the effort to promote trial memberships could have and should have included hobby shops.

YNOT, you might have your dad contact Sandy Frank, your AMA VP. Dr. Frank has been active in trying to establish programs for indoor park flying, among other things. Sandy asked for volunteers to help sometime back. I posted his request here. Has your shop volunteered? There are a lot of us that would agree that the potential for growth in the AMA exists NOW, in numbers never before seen due to the inexpensive park flyers. You and your dad are on the firing line. You probably have substantially more to do with the way the AMA is viewed than even a club does.

While I do not understand the attitude, and personally oppose it, there are clubs that do not want new members, spectators, or even their existence known. They do not want the AMA telling them how to run their clubs. While there appear, arguably, to be some efforts to tell clubs how to be run, the basic approach has been, and still is, for the AMA to keep their hands off. Telling those clubs they must be nice to newbies would be fruitless, and potentially, counterproductive.

The way we have, as a group, received inquiries has always been suspect. How much? I spent $2000 for this plane alone. How often do you crash? As a new pilot, you will probably crash a lot. Why do I need an AMA membership? Insurance. The simple fact is that we, as individuals, are asked so many times, over the years, that we become calloused to the newbie. It’s going to be hard to change that.

Just as a last thought, you might mention to your dad that contacting the members of the EC might be more effective in changing the operation of the AMA than contacting staff.

J_R

Difficult to do considering the cost of the mag is somewhere around $8 per member. On the other hand, I gues the rest of us could make up the difference by paying more for our dues.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Well pick a number, any number. A no frills membership option would increase the membership. It would also serve as a wake up call for the guys in the magazine dept. This idea has been brought up many times before, I wonder what they are afraid of?

Hossfly

AMA has already stopped free memberships to CDs, officers and such. Now these people do earn a 50% discount if they perform their duties. However that is fairly easily made up as the elected officers are allowed expenses and those expenses not reimbursed may be partially recaptured through deductions against taxable income, subject to the 2% rule, and at business rates. Appointed officers can use volunteer rates and all that is subject to if one itemizes deductions.

The Contest Directors are the ones that get slapped in the face. They are not recognized as volunteers, so no deduction unless they claim it and take the *risk management* of an audit. As you state about some instructors, CDs are out significant expense and time simply to promote the sport. Of course many have abused the rating of CD which is so easy to do. Send in a *Jackson* and sanction a Hand Launch Glider Contest for a Tuesday at 11 AM closing at noon. Go out throw a glider, send in a report and you've just earned 9 yankee dollars. Simple. (used to be the full dues)

To give some financial breaks to "Instructors" would require some standards from AMA and some form of MORE RULES over the clubs and their instructional processes. MORE BIG BROTHER right down on your neck and back![:'(]

So just what is an instructor? In my 35 years of RC experience it's just someone that will help another through trial and error while the "another" gets the hang of keeping the machine from regularly crashing.
Contest fliers are too busy with practice to be good instructors.
Relatively new guys that are hot for some 3D or whatever fad is going are only interested in their self-enjoyment and don't really care for instructing, even though they were well ready to receive it.

For 9 years I have tried to mold some good instructors in my club. There are a few that will do so, only they don't remain well disciplined in the art of instructing as they always resort to whatever techniques they use for themselves. There are 3 good instructors in the club. One is an airline pilot however he had many hours as a civil flight instructor and knows how an airplane flies and how to instruct. One has no background in 1/1 scale but is both a good guy and knows how to fly well plus the reasons that the machine flies. He is not readily available as his job is very time demanding. The other is myself and I learned my instructional techniques as a flight instructor in USAF's T-33 and T-38 plus being an academic instructor in several undergraduate pilot training courses. In addition I was a Wing Instrument Training Officer in two units, plus instructor in operational bomber squadrons. Great experiences for teaching RC.

So my points are (1)that each club needs to determine how the Instructor fits into its specific operation, not AMA's legislation. (2) Only a local club can and should be the determining factor of what and who is called Instructor and (3) if AMA provides any resource allocation to such a classification, not only will AMA have a hand in those determinations, eventually everyone will be an "Instructor" and continue on as now -- doing nothing to assist the newbie.

edited to correct CD earnings.

wolfie_47

[quote]ORIGINAL: YNOT




Dad's point is two fold. 1- Membership vs License. Most of the signs use the word licence and I have always known it as a license, but its not a license. License implys some form of testing.

You need to re-think your definition, as the owner of a hobby shop I would have thought you would have had to enter some licence agreements to display company logos and advertising in your store, in fact the computer you wrote this message on required "licensing" before you were able to use it... no testing required for either, you simply agree to certian terms.

2- Be nice to new people. I know there is NO WAY the AMA can do anything about this.

Perhaps its not always the club members that iniate this problem, I've seem many newbie's appear at our field with the attitude that they had some kind of entitlement to our facilities just because they owned a model airplane...Wrong!

Another point that needs to be remembered is that although they may not want to pay $58 to fly a $149 model they have the same potential to cause damage and more important, negitave public opinion as those flying multi thousand dollar planes. While I agree with the trial membership concept I don't agree with the implied idea that we should allow these folks a free ride.

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

I agree about not wanting more rules for the club or for the instructors. I think that each club based on size could be allotted a certain amount of 'instructors' that are basically certified thru the club. Of course the club could decline to have instructors if they don't want the club to grow.... I would hope that the ama would recognize the club requirements for the instructor but..... and I totally agree. I was asked to become a CD. I've thought about it on and off for a couple of years but with the way the ama has treated the cd's I have little desire to go thru the hoops + then send them another $20 for the app fee so that I can be a half paid employee, <JK>.......

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

I guess instead of sponsoring as much large things that most of us will never see, muncie, the model show etc, why not sponsor some things that all of us can see and use on a club level?

Mike in DC

I think Ed Dupaquier's letter makes a lot of good points.

To illustrate, I'd like to tell the story of my sorriest day in this hobby. I was out at the field flying, and there weren't too many other guys around. A mom pulls up with a very enthusiastic teen (14 or 15), his brother and a couple of friends. The kid loves model airplanes, and is the very proud owner of a Firebird or some foam electric plane that he's been saving up for months to buy. The mom, bless her heart, knows nothing, but has driven them 30 miles or something because the kids heard of our field and talked her into it with their enthusiasm. They came over to introduce themselves, and I'll never forgive myself for this, but I was new to the hobby, and didn't know any better, and I told the group I was very sorry, but rules were rules, and they couldn't fly here, due to no AMA card.

As they were all sadly piling back into the car, one of the more experienced club members came over to me and asked what that was all about. I told him, and he started yelling at me, "You fool!", and ran after the group, and said of course you can fly here, and spent 1/2 hour or so helping them get the plane into the air. The plane was really underpowered, but the kids didn't seem to mind and they had a ball until after many crashes it would no longer fly.

While I'm still greatful for that club member that saved me from the meanest thing I've ever done in my life, I still think the AMA set me up for it. There are all these warnings and signs about AMA membership (I don't like the "license" term either) being required, and I didn't seen any exceptions for enthusiastic kids with a harmless plane and the best Mom in the state.

All that said, I still don't know what the answer is. If the kids had done a slight amount of research, they should have seen the "AMA required" notices. The AMA has junior and trial memberships, but it's not really the money. Probably the kids should have just flown the plane in their local park, but I think they wanted to be a part of the bigger club experience. They wanted to hang out with others who shared their excitement, and on paper, our club seemed like a hospitable place.

Maybe just "winking" at the rules is the best approach, but not everybody is wise enough to do that (I wasn't). This is why Dupaquier's letter resonates with me. It just seems that maybe there could be some exception for tiny planes that really have zero chance of injuring anybody. Do you really need additional insurance to fly a plane that can barely stay up in the air?

rw Guinn

You have fallen prey to Politically Correct thinking.
Rules and policys are not rigidly invarient, cast-in-concrete ways of doing things. They are supposed to be ways to get things done, not something to hide behind to keep from having to exercise judgement

"Not only are the octopus and human eyes nearly identical--they share the trait of hiding behind large quantities of ink when confused or upset" Paraphrase of Terry Pratchet comment.

Roger

mongo

My Feedback: (15)

mike:
i prety much disagree with most every thing you say. that last post of yers, however, is spot on.

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

Ok, this is my first time posting in this half of the forums. I have been a member of the AMA, but have since let my membership lapse. I do intend on rejoining.

Here is my stance on why the problems are happening.

A new flyer goes into a store, sees all the airplanes. He shells out his savings acct to get all the stuff he needs to fly. After he passes over all the money he has to pay for his new plane, the shop owner asks him...do you want to join the AMA.

The new flyer says "Whats the AMA?"

The shop owner replies "Its like a modelers club that offers insurance, and you get a magazine."

The new flyer says "How much is it?

The shop owner says "50 bucks"

The new flyer ponders this for a moment, and thinks to himself "hmmm $50 bucks for some insurance and a magazine, or .....that new brushless motor, couple of gallons of nitro....uh, Ill take some nitro please, I'll join the AMA later"

The problem is that most of the flyers and shop owners dont really know about all the AMA offers. If you want to make the new flyers get interested in the AMA, you have to tell them whats behind door number 3.

They need to print a pamphlet that includes a description of the AMA, what its for, what services it offers, and what types of events it sponsors. Then ship them all to every hobby shop in the country, put one in every new plane kit that goes out the manufacturers door, and pass them out at every fly in, competition meet, and PTA meeting you go to.

Next when you go to the field, and you see a new flyer, stop by and encourage him to join the AMA, and tell him why....give him one of those pamphlets you got from the hobby store.

The only way to get people to join is to tell them what ya got.

Just look at this thread, and see how many times someone was corrected as far as to what services the AMA has. I have no idea what all the AMA offers anymore. Im sure there are some things in there that would justify the $50 cost of the membership.

The other problem is that nine times out of ten, the shop owner also tells the new flyer that if he wants to fly at the local field (which just happens to be the only flying field in 200 miles) he needs to be a member of the local club and a member of the AMA.

For a guy that shells out $500+ for a plane, and then gets told he needs to blow another $70+ bucks to be able to fly it with out having to dodge the trees and cows in the field behind his house is not helping anything.

I think alot of this is why the small electric 3D planes and parkflyers are getting so popular. They are cheap, you dont have to go fly it where they require a AMA and club membership, and when it crashes, 10 min later and some foam safe CA and your flying again.

Just my two cents worth

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

Sounds like the ama may be going into the warning sticker business too..... <JK>

mrbigg

My Feedback: (21)

what's the real deal with the AMA's insurance? i heard that if you have a claim you have to exhaust your home owners insurance first. is this true?

Woody218

My Feedback: (24)

You are correct, your homeowner's insurance is primary, unless you don't have homeowner's insurance. In that case, AMA insurance is considered the primary, and you're covered.