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AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers

Old 09-01-2005, 03:50 PM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers


ORIGINAL: abel_pranger


SNIP

He can afford it and isn't complaining but it pains me that he is getting so little value for his money.

Abel

I think some discount may be in order but I am not sure it is a good idea because of the camel's nose under the tent edge issues already mentioned by others. However I am really impressed with your approach Abel.

You have moved from flight instructor to morals councilor in one simple posting where you have defined the value he gets for his investment. Isn't that what your senatorial friends from the states of NY and MASS do for a living?



Old 09-01-2005, 05:23 PM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers


ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum


ORIGINAL: abel_pranger


SNIP

He can afford it and isn't complaining but it pains me that he is getting so little value for his money.

Abel

I think some discount may be in order but I am not sure it is a good idea because of the camel's nose under the tent edge issues already mentioned by others. However I am really impressed with your approach Abel.

You have moved from flight instructor to morals councilor in one simple posting where you have defined the value he gets for his investment. Isn't that what your senatorial friends from the states of NY and MASS do for a living?
Jim-

Value is generally more important to me than 'what I can afford.' When a car salesman gets to the inevitable part of his speil where he asks "How much can you afford to pay?" I tell him I can 'afford' any ten vehicles on his stinkin' lot, but I'm not interested in doing that so let's get back the best price I can get on the one I am casually interested in owning.

What my 'friends' from NY and MA are doing is redistributing weath (except for their own, of course).

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Darnitall, wish I could remember who said that........

Abel
Old 09-01-2005, 05:27 PM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers


ORIGINAL: abel_pranger


ORIGINAL: bhole74


No disrepect intended, but if a person is 100% disabled but can still type, then they can find a job which they are capable of doing and pay up. It is not the disability which I don't agree with, many people have disabilities, my best friend included, but to live large and then whine about not being to AFFORD $58 per year is absurd.
Geez, I thought I was way over to the right of center and expect people to be self-sufficient and all that, but some of you guys are making Pat Robertson look like he's in the camp of Hillary and that other fat rich senator from Mass.

I wouldn't cry myself to sleep if the AMA extended the (optional) discount given seniors to guys with disabilities.

One of the guys I'm coaching is pretty much limited to a wheelchair and O2 tank. He has been a member of AMA and the club for the past 2 years, has made it the field perhaps 5 times, when his health and availability of somebody to drive him allowed. He watched me fly his plane and went home to correct what I told him needed fixing 3 of those times, and flew briefly with assistance on the other two occasions. He can afford it and isn't complaining but it pains me that he is getting so little value for his money.

Abel
So if we give guys with disabilities discounts, how about those that rarely get to the field, or how about those that make less than $25k a year.....where does it stop! And like I said earlier, it isn't the diability, its the "I can't afford it" part I don't agree with. IMHO, If a person can spend $180/year for internet service to complain about $58, they have no room to complain.
Old 09-01-2005, 06:54 PM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers

Abel,
While I have no argument with your definition of value for you, there is significant grief for your defining value for another. Hence my jab in your general direction. I think the source of your quote is Marx or Lenin and fits all who think they can determine value for someone else. But that is just my bad attitude showing.

The real issue is that I think he feels he is getting a good value because he keeps coming back to you. If he were complaining, there might be a good case for changing something.


As Gene and others have said, while there seem to be good reasons to give a discount here and there the question rapidly becomes once we start where do we stop? I add to that the question of who is paying the load to support the discounted membership? I point you back to your quote.


BTW, I try valiantly not to buy very many cars because of the intellectual dishonesty seen at auto dealerships. They don't have salesmen any longer, just order takers and con men. It really bugs them when I know more about their business than they do...
Old 09-01-2005, 07:57 PM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers


ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum

Abel,
While I have no argument with your definition of value for you, there is significant grief for your defining value for another. Hence my jab in your general direction. I think the source of your quote is Marx or Lenin and fits all who think they can determine value for someone else. But that is just my bad attitude showing.
Jim-

Why would my perception of value for another bother you more than the perception most seem have about what is affordable to another. I don't know where this popular "if you can't afford AMA you can't afford to fly model airplanes" slogan came from, gut I do know there are a whole lot of people flying model airplanes that aren't buying it. I know you've seen as often as have that distain aimed at parkflyers, as if they will be shamed by it and so join AMA, and AMA will be saved. Lotsa luck! They aren't buying because they don't see any value in it, not because they can't afford it.

The real issue is that I think he feels he is getting a good value because he keeps coming back to you. If he were complaining, there might be a good case for changing something.


As Gene and others have said, while there seem to be good reasons to give a discount here and there the question rapidly becomes once we start where do we stop? I add to that the question of who is paying the load to support the discounted membership? I point you back to your quote.
Seniors get a discount on membership, on the presumption that many are on fixed incomes and affordability is an issue. Many that are eligible don't take it - affordability is not an issue for them. The same is true for juniors, the one buck membership thing. So, it's already started. In your opinion, is it out hand and should it be stopped? I wouldn't expect disabled persons to take advantage any more than the seniors that choose not to. If it doesn't mean Skippy vs. hamburger, I expect most would go full fare. I know some that would go with the Skippy to pay full fare to AMA. Having a disability doesn't usually diminish one's pride.


BTW, I try valiantly not to buy very many cars because of the intellectual dishonesty seen at auto dealerships. They don't have salesmen any longer, just order takers and con men. It really bugs them when I know more about their business than they do...
Bypass them. Pay $50 bucks to AAA, get a referral to a pre-negotiated deal on the vehicle you want ($XXX.XX over invoice, a figure you and the dealer both know going in), and walk right past the showroom suede shoe boys to the fleet sales guy that has the contract printed out when you arrive in his office. Kick the tires, sign the contract, write a check - takes about five minutes to buy a car and know you got the best deal you're gonna get.

Abel
Old 09-01-2005, 08:46 PM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers

Abel,
I am sure you have noticed that there are a great many who exhibit serious disdain for anything they did not think of or that might impede their infringing on others. That fairly well describes what you have seen in the 'if you cannot afford XYZ then you cannot afford the hobby'. The lack of value seen in the AMA by the park flyers has been earned by the lack of communications from DVP's and the clear hiding of factual issues from the membership by the powers that be and the constant history of significant dues increases for white elephants. We both know that, so the next question is what can we to to change (improve) the situation? Clearly not enough care to change things at the ballot box so the rest of us are going to have to figure out how to keep the boat afloat - I think.

As for the discounts already starting, you are right. Are they out of hand? I know the camel's nose is under the tent flap, so where will it stop? The whole is greater than the sum of the parts, but making us into parts will destroy the whole. When do we stop dividing our organization up into little special interest groups that all have 'rights' and yell about them?


Old 09-03-2005, 08:40 PM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers

Is it an issue about affording it? Are you guys so cold harded to keep someong from flying? Hum ............................. My son (Has autism) we keep flying every weekend but, I know when I am gone My club will still support him in flying.

Crash99
Old 09-04-2005, 12:25 AM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers

No, that is NOT the issue. That is an issue some want to wail about, but the real issue is are we a group or are we parts? Seems to me you already have a very good answer to that, which is what I was trying to imply.
Old 09-04-2005, 12:45 AM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers


ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum

No, that is NOT the issue. That is an issue some want to wail about, but the real issue is are we a group or are we parts? Seems to me you already have a very good answer to that, which is what I was trying to imply.
Jim-
You probably won't like the answer, but here it is: We are parts. That is, we are individuals that think for ourselves, not a homogeneous bunch of groupies that allow some ruling control freak(s) think for us. Does that resolve the issue?

Abel
Old 09-04-2005, 04:28 AM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers

WOW HE just asked a question for crying out load!
I didn't take the question as looking for a free hand out
at all !
Old 09-04-2005, 11:03 AM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers

most AMA fields are not set up nor pass the disability law. The same requirements needed to obtain disability statis from your city , county, state could be used by the AMA to provide a discount in dues. Just get a park flyer, forget the AMA and go fly.
Old 09-04-2005, 03:57 PM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers


ORIGINAL: abel_pranger


ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum

No, that is NOT the issue. That is an issue some want to wail about, but the real issue is are we a group or are we parts? Seems to me you already have a very good answer to that, which is what I was trying to imply.
Jim-
You probably won't like the answer, but here it is: We are parts. That is, we are individuals that think for ourselves, not a homogeneous bunch of groupies that allow some ruling control freak(s) think for us. Does that resolve the issue?

Abel
Abel,
You are in real form this weekend sir, real form. Now, give me a break because you know better - I think.

I was speaking of the community to which we all belong, not making reference to any control freaks similar to some of the elected AMA officers we know of. You know, like the District VIII AMA VP who has repeatedly played the coward and threatened at least one AMA member with lawsuit and membership status changes. It is clear to many that he is unhappy and that he is not in total control of much (take that as far as you want to!). Before his head got too large and his ego became the main driver, he was considered one of the good guys...



Old 09-04-2005, 07:36 PM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers


ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum

Abel,
You are in real form this weekend sir, real form. Now, give me a break because you know better - I think.

I was speaking of the community to which we all belong, not making reference to any control freaks similar to some of the elected AMA officers we know of. You know, like the District VIII AMA VP who has repeatedly played the coward and threatened at least one AMA member with lawsuit and membership status changes. It is clear to many that he is unhappy and that he is not in total control of much (take that as far as you want to!). Before his head got too large and his ego became the main driver, he was considered one of the good guys...
Jim -

I didn't intend to be facetious. The community to which we all belong has many and varied aspects. The only thing we really have in common is a passion for things that fly. The scope of model aviation is so broad that few of us will ever get exposed to, much less appreciate all the special interests involved in it. I've been doing it for 50 years, yet have never seen an an indoor microfilm model, nor a competition FF model. Even within the R/C subgroup, there are many different interests. Half of AMA members don't belong to a club, yet I think you'll agree that AMA is to a major extent dependent on organized modeling that takes place at club venues for its very existence. Clubs are subsidized by the individual membership dues we all pay, club members and not. How about that camel in the tent?

Lets get back on the specif topic of this thread. What if....................
A reserve fund were established by AMA, funded by voluntary 'premium' dues above the rate for Open members.
It would be used to
- Assist people for whom affordability of AMA dues is an issue (by their own determination). Include disabled persons and college students whose budget priorities don't fully accommodate AMA dues.
- Temporarily cover guys that had a glitch resulting in refusal of a credit payment for dues. This would allow the 'instant membership' to be restored. It was eliminated by fiat of Dave Brown after it was discovered that an AMA member involved in a liability situation had his credit card payment for dues bounce.

In addition to Open members voluntarily paying a premium rate, it might also get funds from seniors eligible for a discount under current policy to designate the difference to this reserve fund when they voluntarily pay full fare.

Tell you the truth, I'd much sooner pay a premium in dues for this purpose than buy a gold brick to pave a walkway at the HQ Mecca.

Thoughts?

Abel
Old 09-04-2005, 09:01 PM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers

You wrote:
Lets get back on the specif topic of this thread. What if....................
A reserve fund were established by AMA, funded by voluntary 'premium' dues above the rate for Open members.
It would be used to
- Assist people for whom affordability of AMA dues is an issue (by their own determination). Include disabled persons and college students whose budget priorities don't fully accommodate AMA dues.
- Temporarily cover guys that had a glitch resulting in refusal of a credit payment for dues. This would allow the 'instant membership' to be restored. It was eliminated by fiat of Dave Brown after it was discovered that an AMA member involved in a liability situation had his credit card payment for dues bounce.

In addition to Open members voluntarily paying a premium rate, it might also get funds from seniors eligible for a discount under current policy to designate the difference to this reserve fund when they voluntarily pay full fare.

Tell you the truth, I'd much sooner pay a premium in dues for this purpose than buy a gold brick to pave a walkway at the HQ Mecca.

Thoughts?



Abel,
I happen to think that this idea of yours, like many others you have expressed from time to time, is another good one. The problem is that it gores too many of the wrong oxen and presents too much of a potential for abuse, like social security funds have for congress critters. Proof of that potential can be found in the widespread knowledge of what the AMA's annual budget looks like. With that information which I have asked for and been told it is too secret for modelers to have, we can start serious discussions about what direction 'WE' are going. Until then stand by, with or without the Vaseline, for yet another dues increase to pay for insurance that has not gone up or some other such tragedy used as a front to redistribute wealth among modelers.

In other words, I think you have presented something a great many of us would sign up for and fund. However, please do not go on a diet awaiting action from AMA because it will not happen as too many will view (justifiably??) it as yet another way for the AMA to get into our pocket books. Until those issues are resolved, I prefer the solution Crash99's club has taken. It is clean, those involved know exactly what is being done, and there is little or no question about abuse.



Bad attitude #2856
Old 09-04-2005, 09:08 PM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers

//SNIP//

Lets get back on the specif topic of this thread. What if....................
A reserve fund were established by AMA, funded by voluntary 'premium' dues above the rate for Open members.
It would be used to
- Assist people for whom affordability of AMA dues is an issue (by their own determination). Include disabled persons and college students whose budget priorities don't fully accommodate AMA dues.
- Temporarily cover guys that had a glitch resulting in refusal of a credit payment for dues. This would allow the 'instant membership' to be restored. It was eliminated by fiat of Dave Brown after it was discovered that an AMA member involved in a liability situation had his credit card payment for dues bounce.
Abel, your thesis and ideas are very kind and are definitely what should be in our human community, YET ???.

Unfortunately, compare such a program within our AMA with another grand old document: (EMPHASIS added)

Article I, Section 8.
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and GENERAL WELFARE ...."

Just look at the above quote and consider what those last two words have done to this Republic in the additional costs levied on those individuals willing to earn their keep, while so many depend on the government and other taxpayers to provide for their personal welfare.

Personally, while I believe in general welfare, I am very wary of those definitions and programs that remove responsibility for one's welfare from one's own personal planning.
Old 09-06-2005, 11:34 PM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers

WOW !!!!! I didnt expect to make so many people angry. All I wanted to know if there was a discount. Plain and simple......yes or no. About a year ago I did write a letter to someone....sorry I do not remember the name but I was told he was going to be the new president......or new area VP or District of tha AMA......heck I dont remember. It was a thread on one of the groups and I PMed him just after I was hurt and asked If I voted for him what could he do to look into the matter of a discount. I received an e mail back and it stated that he would look into the matter. I never heard another word from this man again. There are many programs for disabled people. I thought the AMA just might have something for a guy on a limited income, who doesnt fly very often. I know many have read other post by me.....yes I did make good money, before I was hurt. I do buy lots of R/C stuff and still do. I did belong to the AMA. I do not belong to any clubs as the local club only wanted my money and then told me to go buy a trainer plane and they would teach me. I showed up 2 diffrent times with my new plane and both times the instructor was out drinking the night before and never showed up in the morning. I gave up and never went back.I tried to learn to fly on my own. Guess what......... I crashed. Not once but many many times. I went crazy buying things on e bay....on the r/c message boards......meeting people hundreds of miles to pick up planes so I could try again. Still with the same outcome. I still am not a good flyer and crash pretty much every time I go out and try. So why should I renew my membership? All of the places I fly at dont require it. I put all of the glow and electric planes away in storage and learned about Slope Soaring from a few locals here in the board. Epp foam will bounce at 70mph straight into the ground. Pick it up....dust it off and try again. I guess in due time I will get better and some day I will pull out the other planes I put in storage, after I fix them, and try again. Many organizations offer discounts for many diffrent reasons......In fact heres a lil info that I will pass along. Carls Jr fast food resturant here in the Southern California area will let you purchase a 99 cent hamburger......and If you are disabled or a senior they through in a free small soft drink. Oh ya the drink is 1.29 (free) go figure. This is there way of saying thanks for doing business here. After all of the surgerys.....the moraphine pump.....drilling of the spine......electronic leads running through 4 disks to ease the pain. Yes I am considered disabled. I am in no way as bad off as many others I have come across. I can drive, I can type, I can fly (well sort of hahaha) I am not looking for a free hand out. Just wanted to know if the AMA might knock off 5 or 10 bucks for a guy in my situation. Yes I can afford the dues. but it didnt hurt to ask. If you dont ask for cream for your coffee........you get it black.....right? I was just asking. God Bless T.J.
Old 09-07-2005, 06:05 AM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers

My hats off to you.
You have remained calm and rational after some pretty hard knocks by a lot of these other "people" ("people" because the rules say we have to remain polite here no matter what those "people" say)

I started reading this thread because I too am disabled and as such it pertains to me also. The disability is also a back problem, similar to yours, that leaves a person not only disabled but in constant pain 24/7. I don't have the morphine pump yet, but the doctors are already talking about it.


To those of you, like Red, that have replied negatively to this mans simple question, all I can say here, without getting outside the rules is, God help you if you ever become disabled.

I too had a good income before. 20 years ago, when I flew RC before, I also belonged to the AMA. Now that I'm starting back in the hobby with a little EPP foam SuperFly electric, I'm flying at a friends farm.

I was thinking about joining the AMA again, but after reading many of the replies, like Reds, - I don't think so anymore.
Why would I want to be associated with people like that? Simple answer is - I don't.

As for the political statements - I don't understand your thinking (and don't care to ether)
I voted for our President, and I'm glad I did. And can't stand those Senators from Mass. or what they try to promote.

If you don't want to answer the mans question, at least don't add to his pain. You have NO IDEA what he is going through.



<edited for>
This hobby has changed alot from when I was part of it before. Some things like the foam planes and park flyers are a welcome addition. While some changes, like how the AMA has changed, and some of the people in it, are anything but welcome. Maybe the AMA has out lived its usefullness and has become "too big for it's britches" - as one old saying goes. Or another way of putting it - If it doesn't represent me, why should I bother with it?
Old 09-07-2005, 08:59 AM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers

Hummm....

AMA is liability insurance. If some one is disabled--regardless of the disability--why would an insurance company want to discount premiums for an individual who presents an increased risk? Thats like saying I have a hart condition so my health insurance should be less than someone who is healthy.

Old 09-07-2005, 10:09 AM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers

Hmmmmm ...... and Hmmmmm ...
AMA is (or was) modelers that banded together to have an organized group of people with like interests to promote the hobby, have organized contests and meetings and to present a united group to petition the FCC for rights to our frequencies. And they also provided some additional liability insurance which kicks in AFTER your homeowners insurance pays first, and as a liability insurance coverage for those that rent and don't have homeowners insurance.

And some more Hmmmmm .....

I've got a good homeowners insurance which pretty much negates any insurance benefits from AMA, and they would be the first to point that out in the event of any accident.
Old 09-08-2005, 08:17 AM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers

I can no longer afford to pay yearly dues,
Yes I can afford the dues.
Which is it?
Old 09-08-2005, 10:53 AM
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Hey bhole74, we found the plane!!
Old 09-08-2005, 12:53 PM
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Old 09-09-2005, 09:07 PM
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Default RE: AMA Discounts for Disabled Flyers

I can no longer justify to pay the yearly dues. If that answeres your question..... Well....... Maybe I can. That wasnt the point. No place I fly at requires it. Only the club I went to did, but they never taught me so a guess it was a big waste of money, except for the cool mag I got with the membership. Now there are some local events that I really want to try some day.....they require it. sooooo who knows? If forced to buy then I will. I will have no choice but to either buy the membership, or not fly in an event. So many choices LOL
God Bless
Guru
Old 09-10-2005, 04:26 PM
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...Proof of that potential can be found in the widespread knowledge of what the AMA's annual budget looks like. With that information which I have asked for and been told it is too secret for modelers to have, ...Jim Branaum AMA 1428

Jim, I'm not trying to change the subject of the post, but are you saying that the AMA won't provide the annual budget? If that's the case, I find that extremely troubling. I never thought about it until your post. They (We?) obviously don't publish it anywhere then? Thanks!
Old 09-10-2005, 05:17 PM
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ORIGINAL: RWLewis2nd

...Proof of that potential can be found in the widespread knowledge of what the AMA's annual budget looks like. With that information which I have asked for and been told it is too secret for modelers to have, ...Jim Branaum AMA 1428

Jim, I'm not trying to change the subject of the post, but are you saying that the AMA won't provide the annual budget? If that's the case, I find that extremely troubling. I never thought about it until your post. They (We?) obviously don't publish it anywhere then? Thanks!
It doesn't appear they know what a budget is. The last time the dues were increased, I asked my DVP if the projected budget justified the amount of the increase. He told me there was no budget presented, a fact that troubled him and made it hard for him to support the dues increase proposed (so he didn't). Don't feel left out - the EC doesn't get to see it either.

Abel

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