Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

In another thread there is a great wail of no rules because good folks use common sense. As I am sure you have heard, sense is not common. However, rules are a poor substitute because we are made up of folks who blindly follow the rules, even to death in some cases, and those who intentionally break them. The problem, in this case, is that rules will not fix a lack of attention or failure to think. Rules are not fixes for problems rather they should be guidance for operations.

From your description, you and the club have already provided the guidance. My complements to you for the attempted go around.

heli-cuzz

3D heli's should be in the air solo.!!!
Out of consideration, I'd never fire up my heli while another pilot was flying whether it may be a plane or heli. I know I wouldn't want a heli in my face if I were flying one of my planes, too much of a distraction.

My club has an area for heli's.[8D]

JimRoss

As a member of a club that has the no Hovering over the runway while others are flying I must make my perspective heard. I don't have any problem with the rule as I agree with it completely. However I see this as a respect and consideration issue. I make a habit of getting out of the way of the sport fliers while they are doing their thing. Now here comes the problem, after waiting until all are done and sitting down to talk, eat, or whatever, I go out and crank my plane up and take off to do my practice 3D maneuvers and invariably someone will start up and take off right under my plane.

Here is where the consideration and respect come in. If I can't do my thing while there are other guys flying, what on earth gives them the right to take off under me while I'm flying over the runway.

My parents taught me long ago that respect was a two way street. You don't demand it, you earn it.

As far as rules go, I don't think we need them. What we need is open communication between members about what style of flying we do and what conditions we need to accomplish this style of flying. There is no problem that cannot be solved with open minds and a little cooperation of all involved.

blk96gt

I've had this same problem. Hovering over the runway when noone else is flying, and then someone comes out, cranks up their motor, and then procedes to take off without any consideration that I'm right in the runway. Granted once I noticed what they're doing I got out of the way and landed, but I wait 15 minutes for them to go full speed in a circle, they can wait five more for me to finish flying.

JimRoss

I agree completely with that theory but most of the "Sport" fliers think they don't have to consider anyone else, Some of them forget that I have paid my club dues just like they have and that our club is for ALL kinds of flying, not just left hand circles.
We also have a marker that shows which way the pattern is on any particular day and which way take offs and landings are supposed to be. Some of our members completely ignore that marker and take of in their preferred direction(downwind). When I asked one about it he replied that he was uncomfortable taking off in the other direction. Where's the respect and consideration in that? Rather than ask for help or learn how to do it, he ignores the club rules and puts everyone else out.

Hossfly

Jim, you have had a very rough year, and you have my total sympathy in that respect. Yet, the Jetero Flying Facility goes on. There seems to be a divisive behavior circulating within the Club right now that never existed until a couple years ago. About then a number of new members came in from other clubs and it seems they think their old habits should also apply to the 100+ original Jetero members. IMO, any new member that joins the club should either discipline him/her self to the Club's established rules, or participate as a regular club member and show logical reasoning why the rules should be changed.

There are those that think our solo rules are too strict. Several wish to instruct, but have difficulty demonstrating those requirements.

There are those that think the PAID GRASS MOWING contracts should be done on Tuesday, as they fly on Wed. They don't like mowers on the field on Friday because these same relative new-comers fly Friday and golf on the week-ends. Well BULL SHOT![:@]
The 100 plus that may or may not fly on the weekend are the main financial supporters of the club, paying the most of the mowing contract fees.. The weekend is the show time. If they want a mowing Tuesday, then the tractors are available or these guys could shell out to the contractor additional pay for additional time.

It seems that a certain few want to come into the club and state a desire to change something, then get POed when others don't exactly fall down and praise these oh-so-wise people.

So Jim, it is your club, and you have a right to voice an opinion. Do you come to meetings regularly and provide input on a consistent basis.

Do you serve on committees without getting all huffy and quitting if there are objections to your ideas?

Did you write to the Ex. Committee about the violator of the traffic rule and request a hearing as per club rules?[:-]

If you wish the club to operate well, then it also takes some input from your position.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Hmmm... I always get an insight from real life examples…on one hand there are those (guess who) that seem to have an unending frustration with particular bureaucracies or a particular bureaucracy (guess again) but is vigilant to ensure others comply within the means of a bureaucracy that the satchel butt (one more time) has an apparent great measure of control.

Heck… maybe we should just write letters and attend meetings… to attempt… or effect changes so…. then all the problems of interaction at the flying field will just go away…since we would be too busy playing bureaucrat.

OR

We can learn to communicate… to the fellows we fly with and work things out. I guess that would just be too simple.

I have yet to encounter a situation in which, by communication between pilots/flyers, that things could not be worked out… right then and there, so each and everyone can fly his style and even make a friend along the way. The only time I have seen problems is when some a-hole starts spouting rules or restrictions that may or may not exist or that may or may not apply.

Gremlin Castle

My Feedback: (14)

You are right about the rules. In our club we use a whistle and a trash bag. If someone is hovering over the runway he obviously can't tell what anyone else is doing so we blow the whistle to let him know. If he doesn't respond we walk out and pull the trash bag over his head. Generally several people will help get the pieces in the trash bag so that others can get on with their flying.

crazystix

At my club, most of us that hover do so down on the deck and 10 or 15 feet in front of ourselves. The sport flyers and IMAC guys fly at least 50 to 100 feet high 90% of the time. If someone calls LANDING, DEAD STICK, TAKING OFF, etc., we get out of the way. It works great, we can all fly at the same time because we don't use the same airspace. Not being the MOST skilled 3D flyer among us, more than once my plane has drifted towards another pilot station. When this happens, if I am confident I have 100% total control of my plane, I fly away from that person. Otherwise, I "dump it" by chopping the throttle. Not because I am afraid I will hit the person, but because I don't want them to crash THEIR plane because they were distracted or made nervous by me being too close to them. On the other hand, I've had to dive under picnic tables to avoid being hit by guys trying to regain control of their circle flyer. I've had NO complaints about my flying, and I think the other pilots feel safe knowing that I will gladly sacrifice my plane rather than risking injuring someone. BTW, Horace, I voted for YNOT.

crash99

My Feedback: (3)

Guys,

I have read the post and I am concerned with Rules, rules and more rules. I am a member of a club that flys for the fun of it. Not to many rules.

If hovering over the runway was a safety issue I am sure the AMA would have addressed it in the sifter rule bold and blunt. Like HOVERING IS NOT PERMITTED OVER THE RUNWAY.

No such rule. Ok then, I see no reason for such a rule.

As a side note, safety or lack of was hinted by this type of flyer. Wrong! Lets look at the main cause of accidents at a AMA field. According to the AMA the #1 reason is placing you fingers in the prop. #2 lost of control due to radio issues. 3D flyers fly closer than left hand pattern guys. I have never heard a 3Der say radio problems was the cause of any ruff landing.

New flyers and older flyers (vision) are more of a safety risk that the 3D group as a whole. Yes there are some careless 3D guys out there but the same can be said by all groups.

Do you need a rule? no sir you do not.

Thanks
Crash99

mikeboyd

I agree with your common courtesy statement. If we refer to page 5 our membership manual and keep the hovering at a safe and respectable distance from the other pilot stations and practice proper flight line communications, there should not be such issues. As a club safety officer, I am required to remind my fellow 3D pilots about hovering 5-10 feet from the pilots stations, because they do some flying by themselves, have seen Chip Hyde and others do it, and allow it to become a bad habit. The guy next to them, may be out trying to practice patterns, and their large 3D plane is rudely interfering with his ability to see and safely control his airplane. This kind of flying often causes tunnel vision, if a spotter is not used. The plane flying in their face may drown out a warning of a dead stick or other emergency, that is why we have distance rules for operating our aircraft.

It is up to all of us to practice common courtesy, common sense, and politely remind those that share our great hobby, when they are doing something unsafe, dangerous or out and out rude to fellow hobbiest. We don't become superior pilots until we have had the opportunity to burn allot of gas, and practice, practice, practice. Hopefully, we don't need to run the new blood to our hobby, out of it by having an elitist attitude, and get out of my way, I am the best pilot attitude.

You are absolutely correct, we already have enough rules and regulations, we don't need more, we just need to ensure we follow the few good safety rules that are already in place, and help to reinforce them when the need arises.

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

Since the helicopters in most clubs don't get to hover over the runway,
why then should anyone else get to hover over the runway?

would the FAA let anyone hover over a runway?

One 3d pilot affects the flight pattern of ALL the other pilots flying.

A rule of "no hovering over the runway" is fair to all, if you let one pilot do it, you have to let them all do it.

If you want to hover ...fly a helicopter....

Scott Dilley

My Feedback: (3)

John, that is one of the most ignorant statements that I have heard. We as modelers are a long ways away from our full scale counterparts as far as safety goes, in a different league, I mean. And as for the old school thought of if you want to hover, fly a heli...refer below to my signature. There is much more to 3D flight than just hovering.

PlanePlanter

My Feedback: (9)

Scott, THANK YOU!

Yup! you are right....... aint it GREAT!

Thunderhead

abel_pranger

Apparently it varies from site to site, and those I have seen are different from what you have seen. I have seen many helis, 1:1 and model scale, hover over runways routinely, particularly during landing approaches.

Yup, if they have provided clearance for an aerobatic demo. Saw it done last weekend at Miramar MCAS, by several rotorcraft and a Harrier. I presume if area clearance for aerobatics has not been granted by FAA, then they don't allow hovering over the runway. Do your model club allow aerobatics, or just left-hand turns?

So does the guy that calls "I ain't got it!!" or "Dead stick!!"

I'm confident that the vast majority of 3D enthusiasts would, in the interest of fairness, oppose any rule restricting Scale Warbird et al enthusiasts from hovering over the runway.

If you want to make rules, open a pre-school.

Abel

Scott Dilley

My Feedback: (3)

One more note...at my field, those of us that fly hardcore 3D will always ask the others flying "Do you mind if I bring it down right in front of us?" And there are some who are uncomfortable with that and they feel free to make their concerns known. But they do not try to keep us from doing it all the time, just when they are flying. And once again, that is not a rule, only a little courtesy.

As a rule, the 3D community polices itsself pretty well, because if someone who is incompetent is endangering people, it is not only asking for rules prohibiting 3d, but also endangering our family that most of us bring out with us.

tpstorey

Of course, in preschool they teach you about taking turns..something my club does very well. 3D pilots fly for awhile, warbird pilots fly for awhile, 5 guys that like to fly formation fly for awhile, etc. And we all respect and enjoy each other. What a concept!

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Scott

Were you in Hot Springs this weekend?

abel_pranger

Right on Tim, and that is what many people have tried in various ways to say in this thread. Unfortunately, we can't have unlimited freedom to do our own thing in any group without interfering to some degree with each other's said freedom. So we, ideally, come to agreements (rules) between us as to how we will 'take turns' and prevent conflicting with each other, in a manner that treats each member of the group to an even apportionment of the freedom that remains.
Departures from that ideal seem all too commonly to be the 'rule' rather than the exception. In the post I reacted perhaps a bit harshly to, the advocate of the club rule characterized it as "fair to all." Doesn't seem so to me. His share of freedom to do his thing is increased by the rule, while the 3D guy loses his. That's fair and democratic rulemaking in the same sense as democracy defined as two coyotes and a sheep voting on what's for lunch.

Abel

georgec

At our club we have alot older guys who don't see to good so when we hover they like us to do it in close so they can see the plane.

No really we take turn CJs fly awhile than the 3Ders have there turn.

J_R

Your point is made, Scott

Propwash in Pa

Of all the positioning and eloquent statements in this tread, I believe Able’s hit the mark. I started this thread to not only gain view points from the collective community, but also to better understand the ideological differences between the “have to make rules for everything” crowd vs. the “do thine own thing and leave me alone” crowd. The intent again was to enable our club, community, and landowner to coexist by each giving and taking a little. The other club officers and myself do not believe we need to be so prescriptive as to offend or oppressively impact any of our members as long as some basic (almost common sense) parameters can be agreed to by the membership.

Scott Dilley

My Feedback: (3)

No, I haven't been doing much traveling lately. I have had to get used to 2 new planes this year

Hossfly

Scott, you make a good argument. However in Jetero RC(130 members) one member is a youngster, Brett Wickizer, someone you may know or at least heard of. He can make that 40%er kiss his rear-end. I have witnessed 3D since its inception and I have never seen anything like this youngster. None here have any trouble getting off the field when Brett flies. He makes a great show, and is very nice and courteous, plus unbelievably skilled and safety-minded. Brett won his Pattern Class at the NATs this year. No problems.

OTOH there are several wanna-bees that are a danger just holding a transmitter. Personally I have no intention of having them even fly close to me much less try to hover and torque roll within a 100 feet of me. A couple of these guys push the envelope WITH RULES and would be untenable without rules.

Unfortunately rules have to exist because of those "common-sense" and undisciplined individuals. If it were not for the police enforcing the speed limits, just how many MORE of these "common-sense" speeders, drunks, and racers would be on the roads killing innocent people? While I dislike many of the restrictions imposed by AMA's Safety-Code, I understand why they exist. (Oh, that hurts to say. )

On the local flying field level, there has to be some manner of control. My interpretation of common-sense and courtesy certainly is not everyone else's.