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3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

Old 09-20-2005, 09:08 PM
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Propwash in Pa
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Default 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

Does your club have any rules or guidelines related to 3D and hovering activities? Can this be done over the runway, adjacent to the pits, etc. We have no guidlines currently and came real close to a incident with a 3D into the pit area. (our pit is very close to the flightline).

Your comments are welcome.
Old 09-20-2005, 09:29 PM
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abel_pranger
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club


ORIGINAL: Propwash in Pa

Does your club have any rules or guidelines related to 3D and hovering activities? Can this be done over the runway, adjacent to the pits, etc. We have no guidlines currently and came real close to a incident with a 3D into the pit area. (our pit is very close to the flightline).

Your comments are welcome.
No such rule at either club I belong to. Have you never had an incident with other models coming real close to the pit area? Given that your pit area is is 'very close' to the flight line, I suspect that it's a given that close encounters are bound to occur. One of the fields where I fly is similar in that the pits are near the usual point where models leave the ground on take-off. The chain-link fence separating the pits from the runway has proven it's worth on several occasions.............

Abel
Old 09-20-2005, 09:45 PM
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Propwash in Pa
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

Thanks, our old flying site had a physical barrier between the flight line and the pits. This one does not. It is a nice piece of property but the owner does specified no barriers or obstructions. We have a very high grass buffer this time of year.
Old 09-20-2005, 09:50 PM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

Yeah, I'll have to agree with the boy from St Augustine. Our pit fence is about 30' from the runway but our spectator area is about 70' from the fence. We've had a lot more problems with accidental flying over the pit and spectator area than anyone hovering. We've had a number of folks land and smack the fence. With a continual 90 degree crosswind to land in, it is even more acute.
I don't think the hoverers present any more problems than the rest, in fact probably less.
If they bash, it's usually a short drop for them. Crunch.

3dbob
Old 09-20-2005, 11:24 PM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

ORIGINAL: Propwash in Pa

Does your club have any rules or guidelines related to 3D and hovering activities? Can this be done over the runway, adjacent to the pits, etc. We have no guidlines currently and came real close to a incident with a 3D into the pit area. (our pit is very close to the flightline).

Your comments are welcome.

JETERO RC CLUB FIELD RULES REVISED AND ADOPTED
Jan 27, 2005, Page 2 of 3


14. Pilots will not HOVER aircraft or perform 3D maneuvers over the runway when any other pilot station is occupied.
The exception is for when only electric powered airplanes under two pounds are flying.


Field has five protected stations. First 15 feet beyond pilot stations is sterile area other than Taxi. Runway is then 100 ft. wide, contoured grass.

edit: formatting
Old 09-21-2005, 06:02 AM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

The club that I belong to has had more problems with people flying over the pits than hovering into the pits. I do feel that even though we don't have a rule, 3D should not be done over the runway while others are flying, but I don't think that there anyone in the club is concerned with that. My whole issue would be with flying over the runway.


Woops
Old 09-21-2005, 09:19 AM
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blk96gt
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

For me it's just common courtesy not to hover around over the runway while others are flying. I know I would hate someone hovering in my face over the runway obstructing my view while I'm trying to fly. There is one person at my club that I will do 3D while hes flying, and I made sure it was alright with him first. If I'm hoving on the runway, all he has to say is deadstick, or I'm coming in, and I'm out of there.
Old 09-21-2005, 01:09 PM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

ORIGINAL: blk96gt

For me it's just common courtesy ...
Exactly right!

It really SHOULD be about common courtesy and communication. If PILOTS are tolerant, patient and WILL communicate like a MAN, everyone can get their particular style of flying done.

Worst case... it may be wait for few minutes for his fuel tank will run dry...then have at it YOUR way. I have found that if MEN will take the time to respect each OTHER, communicate in PERSON and share, little wash WOMEN would not have to hide behind some rules.

I have found, without exception, here and everywhere else, that the weakest flyers want the most restrictive rules.[:@]

Here, at this local field, the pilots…err…I mean…the persons that rarely, IF ever, fly or fly poorly want the most restrictive rules and the BETTER pilots that fly here regularly want the least rules.

.

My answer to that is...GO FLY! And change your perspective



At the local field here, the most whining, sniveling and complaining bunch are also the worst flyers. And they sure are a PAIN in the arse to the real enthusiasts!!!

When I read this forum it becomes obvious what is the proficiency of the pilot that is posting by his position about rules.

A direct linear proportionality is the rule. More rules desired= worse pilot skills acquired!

AT ANY RATE… to answer the question at hand...It depends on who YOU ask here and what day just what are the RULES here! The interpretations of rules HERE depend on WHO it is promulgating them and to WHOM it is directed.
Old 09-21-2005, 03:31 PM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

In my 55 +/- years of organized modeling, my experience is that those that complain the most about basic informative club rules are the most undisciplined individuals most likely to never show any respect or courtesy for their fellow pilots.

Courtesy and respect go hand-in-hand with self discipline. Those that are self disciplined really don't need rules, yet there are always those few that simply hold the light bulb while the world revolves around themselves, and they simply just have to do stupid things and then complain that no one told them better. [:@]

That is why the AMA Safety Code is so restrictive, simply because those that cannot discipline themselves just have to have Big Brother there taking care them. [:'(]

Likewise large clubs have to hold the hands of the few smart-*****es that think the world was made strictly for them.
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Old 09-21-2005, 05:19 PM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club


ORIGINAL: Hossfly

..... my experience is that those that complain the most about basic informative club rules are the most undisciplined individuals most likely to never show any respect or courtesy for...



Likewise large clubs have to hold the hands of the few smart-*****es that think the world was made strictly for them.

Hmmm...Horrace your complaint is duly noted

BTW I and most other civil minded folks really do not think the AMA is all that restrictive. Matter of fact I was a proponent, along with many others to go strictly by the AMA rules at the local club but it was rejected in lieu of more subjective rules.
Old 09-21-2005, 05:33 PM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

"I have found, without exception, here and everywhere else, that the weakest flyers want the most restrictive rules." Funny I've never seen you here or anywhere else I've flown.


A direct linear proportionality is the rule. More rules desired= worse pilot skills acquired!
Can you back this up with any facts?

This is killing me, Does your club have rules for hovering or 3D yes or no? Here we don't need them due to the fact that we are all grownups and can police ourselves. Why not just answer the poor guys question without all the B.S. Mike
Old 09-21-2005, 06:40 PM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

Yes, one of the three clubs in which I hold membership has guidelines regarding hovering and 'foamie' flying out of necessity, since the flying site's fixed wing section has a restricted pattern due to construction of a starter mansion subdivision on the Eastern property line.

With the rather tight Eastern approach/departure pattern, all fixed wing operations occur parallel to the runways, e.g. to the North of the runways (asphalt and parallel grass). 3D and foamie ops are done over the grass runway on a not-to-interfere basis. With a fairly close-in tree line North of the runways, and with the runway only about 15' out from the pit area/flight line, and zero room on the Western end of the runway or pit area, there is scant room for 3D/foamie ops anywhere else. We get by, and mostly the guys at this site don't have any problems because common sense really is the rule. See and be seen (or heard) comes into play a lot at this site, and it works.

The second club's site is huge and there is no need to restrict any particular type of flight operations, but the customary patterns are helis to the right of the pit/club house area and in front of the equipment storage shed, fixed wing except foamies use the main runway (grass) and the typical overflight area on the far side of the runway, and 3D ops generally happen where ever the pilot desires on a not-to-interfere basis if traffic is light, or to the left of the pit/club house area and in front of the parking lot.

When the _real_ 3D guys show up (the truly lunatic spastic palmtree drivers), almost everyone at the site lands so they can gawk at the insane and violent maneuvering those guys do routinely. I never will have had the ability to do that kind of flying (not without throwing up, that is) and I'm always impressed with the shows these gents put on when practicing for a heli event. Jes' plain awesome !!

The third club is more of a zoo from a safety standpoint, but there are so few flyers (and members) that 'incidents' consist largely of trying to get the model somewhere over the runway when it quits flying or spending time rescuing a model from the safety fence webbing. There are a very few accomplished 3D types in this club, but they are some kinda very good flyers and to a man they pay attention to other traffic and act accordingly.

Old 09-21-2005, 09:04 PM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

No rules or guidelines at my club.
There are several 3d flyers but apparently no
problems have surfaced. Or not enough to bother with.

Regards
Roby
Old 09-21-2005, 10:07 PM
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Propwash in Pa
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

I feel I need to respond to why I asked the question that started this tread. As the Safety Officer for the club and one of the instructors, I have an obligaton to listen to concerns brought up by fellow members and help facilitate resolution or make the final decision. I utilize this forum as a way to expand my universal understanding and wisdom on the topic. The leadership of the club wants to provide a flying field that can support the variety of flying from fix wing to helicopter, and from 3D to folks like myself who fly classic pattern, to foamies.



ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

ORIGINAL: blk96gt

For me it's just common courtesy ...
Exactly right!

It really SHOULD be about common courtesy and communication. If PILOTS are tolerant, patient and WILL communicate like a MAN, everyone can get their particular style of flying done.

Worst case... it may be wait for few minutes for his fuel tank will run dry...then have at it YOUR way. I have found that if MEN will take the time to respect each OTHER, communicate in PERSON and share, little wash WOMEN would not have to hide behind some rules.

I have found, without exception, here and everywhere else, that the weakest flyers want the most restrictive rules.[:@]

Here, at this local field, the pilots…err…I mean…the persons that rarely, IF ever, fly or fly poorly want the most restrictive rules and the BETTER pilots that fly here regularly want the least rules.

.

My answer to that is...GO FLY! And change your perspective



At the local field here, the most whining, sniveling and complaining bunch are also the worst flyers. And they sure are a PAIN in the arse to the real enthusiasts!!!

When I read this forum it becomes obvious what is the proficiency of the pilot that is posting by his position about rules.

A direct linear proportionality is the rule. More rules desired= worse pilot skills acquired!

AT ANY RATE… to answer the question at hand...It depends on who YOU ask here and what day just what are the RULES here! The interpretations of rules HERE depend on WHO it is promulgating them and to WHOM it is directed.
Old 09-22-2005, 12:20 AM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club


ORIGINAL: rcmiket



This is killing me, Does your club have rules for hovering or 3D yes or no? Here we don't need them due to the fact that we are all grownups and can police ourselves. Why not just answer the poor guys question without all the B.S. Mike
Although you replied to Horrace, I believe your question is directed to me since you quote me… I guess[sm=confused.gif]

Anyway you must have missed my answer so I will repeat it.

"AT ANY RATE… to answer the question at hand...It depends on who YOU ask here(meaning the club nearest me) and what day just what are the RULES here! The interpretations of rules HERE depend on WHO it is promulgating them and to WHOM it is directed."

Yea that’s right...autocrats are the order of the day here! It really does depend who you ask, who does the asking and when asked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just for your info I not only belong to the club that is near my house I also belong to two other clubs that are not too far from here and those clubs do not have any such silly rules ...they actually encourage hovering over the runway and such! They are real enthusiasts into controlling model airplanes instead of controlling people which is to often the hobby of some…especially those HERE.

Am I clear enough now?



Old 09-22-2005, 01:06 PM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club


I think your answer(s) were right on target! I also belong to multiple clubs and find that some of the incapable autocrats can really ruin your flying day. I guess it is a fact of life that we have to deal with those kind in this hobby too. Oddly enough, they seem to get more of a charge out of creating new rules to enforce than flying, but you already implied that.

BTW, I like your sig as it clearly says it all about this subject.
Old 09-23-2005, 09:58 AM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

i am a former club president of a large club that expereinced a growing 3D interest. In my opinion, it is not appropriate for pilot's to be flying 3d out in front of themselves if there is more than one or two airplanes in the pattern, and especially if the pilots of the other airplanes want to make passes down the runway. it's asking for a mid air. on the other hand, some simple rules for 3d are: one, that the pilots never fly inside of the runway centerline, and two, that they position themselves in pilot stations. Now, the problem with that is the better 3d pilots like to walk with the airplanes and be very close to them. That's fine, as long as everyone agrees that the runway will be closed to other activity when these guys go out to play. And the hard and fast rule remains, the airplane will not come over the runway centerline, and the pilot will always be between the airplane and the pits...always looking away from the pits, never into them. there's no reason that this can't work, but it takes cooperation on both sides. 3D is an innovative and often interesting way of flying, but at the same time it's no fun flying a p51 around the patttern with a DA 150 a few feet off your nose. Last, it's up to the club to keep 3d flying safe...the AMA safety code has recently been updated not to allow certain activities that were growing within the 3d community.
Old 09-23-2005, 10:18 AM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club


ORIGINAL: PaulBK

the AMA safety code has recently been updated not to allow certain activities that were growing within the 3d community.
What was changed?
Old 09-23-2005, 10:34 AM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club


ORIGINAL: PlanePlanter


ORIGINAL: PaulBK

the AMA safety code has recently been updated not to allow certain activities that were growing within the 3d community.
What was changed?
DUDE! You better find out cause I've seen the rules and regulations the Fun Nazi's came up for your field and would hate to get written up for violating them 'specailly being on the board and all
Old 09-23-2005, 11:36 AM
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J_R
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

Like most club rules, one size does not fit all. Some clubs may choose to prohbit 3D, or flying down the runway, or whatever, while other clubs allow something entirely different. It has always been left to the individual clubs to make the choices. Personally, I think that is the way it should remain.

I guess my club has something wrong in the makeup of the membership. We have about 150 members who can still talk to each other in a mostly civil manner, and resolve isssues without making rules.
Old 09-23-2005, 12:18 PM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club


ORIGINAL: Thunderhead


ORIGINAL: PlanePlanter


ORIGINAL: PaulBK

the AMA safety code has recently been updated not to allow certain activities that were growing within the 3d community.
What was changed?
DUDE! You better find out cause I've seen the rules and regulations the Fun Nazi's came up for your field and would hate to get written up for violating them 'specailly being on the board and all
DUDE! I know![8D] Thats why I wanted to know what the AMA has "recently" changed....... Hope the Fun Nazi's dont get ahold of it!
Old 09-23-2005, 01:26 PM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

The bottom line is that the phrase about the weaker the flying skills then the more rules that person wants is true. We have a handful of fellows at our club that cannot fly worth s$$$ but insist on stupid rules. It is a problem everywhere.
Old 09-28-2005, 12:00 PM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

So, kinda ironic that I started this tread so as to gain understanding from the general community. I find the dialog about "those who want more rules because they are not skilled flyers" to be not only wrong but very shortsighted. Allow me to describe what happened at the field today. While flying my P-51, a fellow flying a foamy stood in the slot next to me. I was having engine trouble, made a loud announcement about this fact and that I was landing. I proceded to drop the gears, lower flaps half way, and line-up on final. As I crossed the threshold of the runway, he flew (hovered) directly in my path. I added throttle and climbed to about 30' and my engine quite. Let's see, slow and low, not a good combination. I flew it out and "landed" in some high weeds. No damage.

Several of the club members said that I should have flown through him. I decided to talk to him about the situation. He was apologetic. I do not believe this will be a problem (with him) in the future. The strange this is that there is a nice area set aside for 3D and helis at this club.
Old 09-28-2005, 12:50 PM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club


ORIGINAL: Propwash in Pa

So, kinda ironic that I started this tread so as to gain understanding from the general community. I find the dialog about "those who want more rules because they are not skilled flyers" to be not only wrong but very shortsighted. Allow me to describe what happened at the field today. While flying my P-51, a fellow flying a foamy stood in the slot next to me. I was having engine trouble, made a loud announcement about this fact and that I was landing. I proceded to drop the gears, lower flaps half way, and line-up on final. As I crossed the threshold of the runway, he flew (hovered) directly in my path. I added throttle and climbed to about 30' and my engine quite. Let's see, slow and low, not a good combination. I flew it out and "landed" in some high weeds. No damage.

Several of the club members said that I should have flown through him. I decided to talk to him about the situation. He was apologetic. I do not believe this will be a problem (with him) in the future. The strange this is that there is a nice area set aside for 3D and helis at this club.

In this case I really don't see how a RULE would have made any difference...the fellow would have been just as oblivious either way. Face it… if he will not heed an immediate notice I doubt any other notice or rules would have make a difference. Of course, as you experience level increases you will feel more comfortable in a similar situation should it arise again and will be able to make your landing despite an aircraft...especially a foamy being over the runway I land under other aircraft all the time without any concerns at all…but…I am experienced at doing so

Ok… couldn’t resist…so before your panties get all bunched up…In all seriousness, when it comes to runway use there is a logical priority. Dead-sticks or any trouble is foremost…landing is next…then take off and finally any maneuvering i.e. Flybys, touch n’ goes and of course 3-D.

In the end, it really is about communication (which you did do)… all any rule allows is a means to admonish/punish someone AFTER something happens but… there is always other means that work very well.

Yes… that pilot was inconsiderate and wrong but it doesn’t take a RULE to figure that out....
Old 09-28-2005, 01:38 PM
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Default RE: 3D & Hovering Guidelines in Your Club

Rules will not change people with no common sense or who are just inconsiderate.

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