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AMA Response was Disappointing!

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AMA Response was Disappointing!

Old 11-17-2005, 02:18 PM
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Default RE: AMA Response was Disappointing!

How about going and talking to the rouge flyers. Offer to give them one year free due's to your club (so they can try the club thing out), and have the club pay thier AMA dues for a year as well ( I believe there are only a couple of them). Total outlay should be less than $200 bucks. Pay it from the club assets and go back to enjoying flying. Inviting them over to your camp may very well work out in the end and if they decide not to stay in the club they probably will have enough respect to move out far enough as to not cause a problem.

The quoting of FCC regs and AMA rules doesn't really hold any water. Yes it is in violation of certail laws (FCC Regs) but who is going to enforce them? Just takes money, right? Take the money from that and help these guys into your world and live together. Just a thought, but seems pretty simple to me.
Old 11-17-2005, 05:55 PM
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Default RE: AMA Response was Disappointing!

John,

If I understand it correctly these guys have seen this club members at their worse and this club is not one of those good clubs to fly at. I took it as a club with to many rules and some of their hobby is not flying, it is enforcing rules.

I have not ever seen a club like that but I have read about them here. I think you will have better results in staying off their channels and try to be nice to those so called rouge flyers.

Crash99
Old 11-18-2005, 06:30 AM
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Default RE: AMA Response was Disappointing!

If I understand it correctly these guys have seen this club members at their worse and this club is not one of those good clubs to fly at.
I believe your understanding is incorrect. The original post in this thread clearly stated that they had been approached (I'll assume in a civil manner), invited to join the club (said invitation was verbally accepted, but never acted upon). I don't think the problem, based on the description, was that they thought the club was not good to fly at, it was simply more convenient for them to fly at their own field. That prompted the discussions on this thread on other actions that could be considered. There is no indication that the club in question has too many rules or too few rules, nor is there any indication of how those rules are enforced. They are simply a club that has been using the same site for 15 years, and somebody locally chose to ignore their existence and began (inadvertantly?) shooting down club members planes.

The other posts (I'm assuming my posts about possible legal recourse as a last resort) are what you may be interpreting as "a club not good to fly at" in reality are from others simply trying to help define alternative courses of action.

Brad
Old 11-18-2005, 03:33 PM
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Default RE: AMA Response was Disappointing!

bkdavy,

good point taken. You used the largest word I know ASSUME. They said quote

liabilities he or she may be exposing themselves to by allowing these modelers to operate off of their land. I.E. a plane striking a person, house or car and the legal ramifications of a potential law suite.

I do not know of any friendly club that would jump right to the words law suite. The work friendly and law suite can not go together. Maybe he mis spoke on the owner of this thread.

Here is my thoughts, There must be a reason why they do not want to fly with the 15 year old club.

Thanks
Crash99
Old 11-18-2005, 10:43 PM
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Default RE: AMA Response was Disappointing!

As soon as you turn on "MOST" transmitters you instantly begin RF broadcasting on an assigned frequency. If you did not have a receiver tuned to that frequency or some sort of scanner, how would you know that you or anyone else were broadcasting on the frequency. My point is, it would be very hard to prove that someone shot you down or you were shooting someone else down. PROVE IT!!! Even the most sophisticated scanners, which I have one, can only show you that there are packet errors when someone else turns on....Prove it that they turned on...... Forget about it...... I had a guy tell me that his transmitter (on the same frequency) was still in the back of his pickup and turned off (he came to me before I said anything to anyone...hummm)

I believe the Polk's Hobby line is the only transmitters that scans first then inhibits the RF if the channel is busy. Now why can't other mfg's do the same.... I believe that would solve all or most of our problems....... I have one and it told me that another patron had their transmitter turned on. When I went to confront him, he thought he was on a different frequency and had his pin up on the wrong frequency....WOW....
Old 11-19-2005, 04:11 PM
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Default RE: AMA Response was Disappointing!

Just for clarification, \

They said quote

liabilities he or she may be exposing themselves to by allowing these modelers to operate off of their land. I.E. a plane striking a person, house or car and the legal ramifications of a potential law suite.
This statement was not made by Giw252, the person bringing up the problem, and only representative of the club in this discussion. If you look at his posts, its quite apparent that the club wants to seek a friendly solution. My guess is the other flyers simply don't want to pay the club fees.

Brad
Old 11-21-2005, 12:48 PM
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Default RE: AMA Response was Disappointing!

Dave Brown on Park Flyers
http://www.modelaircraft.org/mag/Dec2005/president.htm



Old 11-21-2005, 01:59 PM
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Default RE: AMA Response was Disappointing!

Excellent article and so very true. Unfortunately, so few of our society have such a broad perspective. Wonder where such perspective comes from. It's not just age.
Old 11-21-2005, 02:25 PM
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Default RE: AMA Response was Disappointing!


ORIGINAL: Hossfly

Excellent article and so very true. Unfortunately, so few of our society have such a broad perspective. Wonder where such perspective comes from. It's not just age.
Hoss-

Agree with the words and the objective, but AMA needs to do something to make it happen. Note these lines from the article:

"How about setting up a day in the spring where your club members will help kids with their new models? If you restricted it to youth members and sanctioned the event with a CD, you could sign up the kids as AMA members for $1 apiece and be fully insured."

That's about the only way an AMA club can reasonably accomodate the newbie park flyer. If he is not an eligible youth member, he'll probably have to plunk down $58 for AMA before he can fly his new model at the club site. If the club has an Intro Pilot (about one in six does) and he is available, a newbie could fly his own model under the supervision of the IP for his taste of flying at a club field. No other option available - not even one buddy box flight, as that would be restricted to the host AMA member's model only.

DB did some digging into the exclusionary AMA rules to choose his example carefully. The goal is fine, but AMA needs some changes before we can put out the welcome mat at our club fields for PF newcomers other than kids.

Abel
Old 11-21-2005, 02:47 PM
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Default RE: AMA Response was Disappointing!

Abel

Maybe there is hope. The following excerpt is taken from the latest EC meeting minutes (emphasis mine). While buddy-boxing may not be the ultimate answer where park flyers are concerned, because so many are on 27mHz, at least someone has remembered the subject of buddy-boxing to entice more people to visit clubs has been suggested to the EC by you.

“Membership Development”

“The Axiom study indicated that 60% of members consider the number one priority is flying sites. Suggestions from the committee include moving the monthly flying site assistance columns toward the front of the magazine; possibly include a flying site assistance helpful hint section; ease the renewal process; and as the Axiom study shows 93% of readership is RC related consider balancing this in the magazine. Programs being looked at directed toward new members include a new pilot program (similar to the ‘Be a Pilot’ program); revise the advertisement for the $19.95 introductory program; and create a buddy-box program. Data was provided to show the size of the non-member market.”

Old 11-21-2005, 10:35 PM
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Default RE: AMA Response was Disappointing!


ORIGINAL: J_R

Abel

Maybe there is hope. The following excerpt is taken from the latest EC meeting minutes (emphasis mine). While buddy-boxing may not be the ultimate answer where park flyers are concerned, because so many are on 27mHz, at least someone has remembered the subject of buddy-boxing to entice more people to visit clubs has been suggested to the EC by you.

“Membership Development”

“The Axiom study indicated that 60% of members consider the number one priority is flying sites. Suggestions from the committee include moving the monthly flying site assistance columns toward the front of the magazine; possibly include a flying site assistance helpful hint section; ease the renewal process; and as the Axiom study shows 93% of readership is RC related consider balancing this in the magazine. Programs being looked at directed toward new members include a new pilot program (similar to the ‘Be a Pilot’ program); revise the advertisement for the $19.95 introductory program; and create a buddy-box program. Data was provided to show the size of the non-member market.”

JR-

While I'd really like to see current restrictions on buddy-boxing lifted and think it would contribute a lot to attracting new club and AMA members, it isn't a panacea. I think your observation that it wouldn't generally accommodate the park flyers is correct. Not just because they may operate in different allocations of the radio spectrum, but also because their owners may be be much more competent to fly them than their host on the master Tx in the buddy-box scenario. They do fly differently, generally quicker in maneuvering than traditional models, and I perceive the objective is to attract the experienced park flyers, not just the newbies.

I have thought for some time a good approach might be to offer guest day passes to fly at AMA chartered sites. There are various ways it might be implemented, say allocate a number of passes to each club based on membership numbers initially and then provide incentive by increasing the allocation per club (or individual) based on the number of sign-ups for AMA membership that result. Whatever plan were decided upon it wouldn't happen overnight, as the insurance contract would need to be changed to cover the users of day passes, as are those under the Intro Pilot Program. Takes some time, but seems easily doable.

I suspect that the real hurdle to overcome to make such a program palatable to the folks in Muncie is some assurance that it won't be abused by the unscrupulous. It's easy to imagine that some might hold passes intended to attract new members to cover non dues-paying freeloaders in the event of an accident, issuing them ex post facto. That's a potential issue I don't a have good concept formulated to deal with. Having the club secretary/other POC sign and date/time them as to their effectivity prior to distribution might be enough in a more perfect world, but I don't think that would be considered enough at HQ. I'd like to hear from anyone with ideas as to how a one day guest pass might be implemented with a reasonable level of control to prevent abuse.

Abel
Old 11-22-2005, 04:48 PM
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Default RE: AMA Response was Disappointing!

GIW252
I would like to hear the latest update on this situation.
How is your club handling this?
Old 12-07-2005, 01:39 PM
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Default RE: AMA Response was Disappointing!

It boils down to the 10% rule. My Marine Corps drill instructor told us there would ALWAYS be 10% of the people screw it up for everyone. He was right. All through life I find it to be true. That appears to be the case here. And I assure you, the more complaints the FCC gets from us using these freq's, the more apt we are to lose them altogether. My recommendation, keep it in house, low key, fix the problem. It sounds like this club is getting shafted by a couple of jerks. I know they (Jerks) break no laws by flying where they do. But quit splitting hairs and call a spade a spade. They seem to be in the wrong.
BTW, AMA regulations should be considered an established standard. Because it is. It isn't rule of law, but it is a standard. Model kit manufacturers even point to them for guidelines in their kit's instruction manuals. To me, that is established.

Sorry, I do not know how to tell you to fix the problem you face.
Old 12-28-2005, 01:33 PM
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Default RE: AMA Response was Disappointing!

I got the strong feeling they want nothing to do with you. And that is the end of the matter with them.
What would you do if 2 more groups popped up the same distance away?
The AMA wants members and dues. Not confrontation with non-paying people.
Everyone is not lawsuit fearfull.
Each group having a set of frequencies is the only--IF-- agreeable--- way out.

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