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Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

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Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Old 11-26-2005, 03:38 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

I am sure you all have seen this but I believe this sums it up.

Teddy Roosevelt, on being an American:


"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American ... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."


Theodore Roosevelt 1907
Old 11-26-2005, 03:42 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

No question that the expenses should get picked up by the AMA at a certain point. There aren't too many "beer budget" guys able to afford the try out rigamorole, let alone be able to leave work long enough to compete. Let's face it, FAI competition is kind of limited to those who have considerable money and time. Kind of like EQUESTRIAN competition in the OLYMPICS. For the typical, "joe blow" type member , such as myself, it is nice to have the world champs as something interesting to glance at in the AMA mag, but I wouldn't want to see too much of the AMAs' money devoted to it, just what ever limits that have been established by the FAI. I don't remember if this was ever officially known as the truth, but before the fall of the SOVIET UNION, it was my understanding that their FAI combat teams were full time, govmt funded, professional flyers. Were / are the FAI rules this liberal about sponsorship, or was this just jealous gossip when they used to whip our tails in C/L events?
Old 11-26-2005, 07:11 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all.
Whew!!!!!!!!
Old 11-28-2005, 12:54 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Chip
I will PERSONALLY BUY YOU a STEAK DINNER if the AMA listens to the wishes of the majority of its members
and makes the correct decision on what the policy should be... I somehow feel like they will let US down again!
I will be tickled to be wrong on this.
Old 11-28-2005, 05:10 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Chip,

I have nothing to say but YES, OF COURSE they sould be US Citizens!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Terry
Old 11-28-2005, 06:36 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Ummmm...my three year old has a passport, and in and of itself a passport only shows that you are legal to reside in the U.S., this does not mean you a re a resident. For example, an exchange student on a student visa is able to get a U.S. Passport for the time period of his Visa.However this only makes hima temporary legal resident, not a citizen. A resident and citizen are in fact two different things.
Old 11-28-2005, 07:02 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

ORIGINAL: SSRCCPREZ

Ummmm...my three year old has a passport, and in and of itself a passport only shows that you are legal to reside in the U.S., this does not mean you a re a resident. For example, an exchange student on a student visa is able to get a U.S. Passport for the time period of his Visa.However this only makes hima temporary legal resident, not a citizen. A resident and citizen are in fact two different things.
Say what? Go read your three year old's passport a bit closer. They clearly state that the passport is proof of CITIZENSHIP! The US Dept of State issues passports to US citizens, not foreign students here on a visa. An exchange student would retain the passport from the country in which they are a citizen. People who become temporary, or permanent residents, get a greencard as proof of residence, but they don't get passports. In order to travel abroad, these people need to use the passport from the country in which they are a citizen.
Old 11-28-2005, 07:17 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: J_R


***********
U.S. Team Eligibility
• It is being requested that AMA instate a policy requiring U.S. citizenship for any member trying out for a U.S. team. A decision on this request is under the purview of the FAI Executive Committee. The President indicated that AMA follows the FAI policy which does not require citizenship but does require residency of the country an individual wishes to represent. He also noted that a proposal is set to go before the FAI General Conference requesting the residency requirement be reduced from three years to one year. The NAA polled the U.S. air sports organizations on their view of this proposal; the AMA President offered a resounding no. Depending on the outcome of this issue it may be necessary for the AMA to write their own policy on residency requirements. It would be extremely difficult to require proof of citizenship, as percentage wise not many people have U.S. passports. ***********
J_R

It wouldn't be difficult to check citizenship at all. Any person that would qualify for the U.S. Team, would need to have a passport to travel to the event. I don't see the difficulty in checking those passports for proof of citizenship.

Further, any individual that would be interested in trying to make the Team, would need to have the ability to prove their citizenship.

Ken Thompson
Old 11-28-2005, 07:33 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Sorry for the repetative post, I should have read the entire thread before I put my .02 in, I just repeated what several people already said.

But I still mean it

Ken
Old 11-28-2005, 07:58 PM
  #35  
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Ken

That's fine. I took the entire paragraph that was of interest to this thread and posted it. I agree, so... remove the one line and reread the paragraph without it, and then compare that to what was posted in the inital post. Particularly "Now they want to open the field so that any resident can compete."

The way it has been, right or wrong, was that residents could be on the team if they could otherwise qualify, which was the reason I posted the rest of the paragraph to begin with.

I knew Chip had been appointed to the Team Selection Committee, I did not know he had been apointed Rules Committee Chairman, so, what do I know anyway?

Edit:

The move, by the FAI, as I understand, and not by the AMA, is to reduce the residency requirement from three years to one year.

FAI is not my strong suit, but, if I recall correctly, there are 13 disiplines. Chip is talking about 3. Seveal, especially those in the Space devision of the CIAM have an extremently limited number of participants... to the point where fielding a team is a problem. This is probably a good opportunity for those interested in FAI to ask questions. Who is better qualified than Chip to answer them?
Old 11-28-2005, 08:17 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Chuck,
You are absolutely right!
[sm=thumbup.gif]
Citizenship is not hard to prove...and you don't need a passport!
What do you think you take with you when you get a passport?
JLK
Old 11-28-2005, 10:23 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

JLK, check post #20. Under the assumption that this team will be traveling abroad, checking passports might as well be done anyway.
Old 11-29-2005, 06:27 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

If US citizenship was a requirement for AMA membership, then I would agree with requiring US citizenship for international competition teams. HOWEVER, nobody asked to see my passport when I signed up for AMA membership. In the end, such competitions come down to INDIVIDUAL competition without regard for nationality. I like the earlier post where it talked about competing in plain shirts with no flags. County me as a "no".

papermache
Old 11-29-2005, 01:45 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: AMA minutes via JR post

It would be extremely difficult to require proof of citizenship, as percentage wise not many people have U.S. passports.

Not having a passport would likely make it difficult to travel to the World Championships competition don't ya think?!
Old 11-29-2005, 01:46 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

This subject is very close to home for me.

Many people have represented America in both the military and sports who were not born as Americans. I personally have been through the "rites of passage" journey to become an American. I went through the L1-visa, green card, five years residency and then the citizenship test route.

I have children who were not born here and children who were born here. One child has not yet naturalised but has lived here for 23 years.

Interestingly enough, as a US resident you pay all the taxes that a citizen pays and can also be called up for military service.

By the above I could represent the USA in some sport or other (I'm too old for the military even if they would want me). My eldest son could not be on a USA team. My youngest son who has been in the USA less years than my oldest could be on a USA team. (He is also in the US navy BTW). Both sons have naturalised US citizen parents.

Despite all of the angles and wrinkles in the system it is only fair that a US team has US citizens on it. Residency is not enough.

OK! now to another aspect that is not so easy to sort out. That is the qualification system to represent a country in FAI-F3A. It is left up to the RC org in the respective countries to decide how they do that. That leads us to the case of an imaginary individual. (I'll use myself so that I don't look like anyone famous out here in the USA).

Suppose that I was still only a US resident and was good enough be in the top 20 FAI pilots in the USA - just a little stretch :-) Then suppose that I was beating all of the USA team members - a really big stretch for me but there are some who can do this. So in no way would I be eligible for the USA team, but I could possibly make the team of my country of origin. Then you find out that they pick the team by accumulating points accumulated by attending - and winning?- a series contests in that country.

Now I am in no-man's land! Can't fly for the USA. Can't fly for my mother country. The option to go back is not practical because I have made a new life in the USA. New job, home, savings plan, USA children, healthcare and retirement are all tied to being here. the only answer is to become a citizen.

Then that leads to acceptance criteria for entry into the FAI-F3A Worlds. Why can't an individual be allowed to enter?? Like the event owners exemption pick in a big golf tournament. This would be a possible solution. The RC contest resume would be a good selection tool. The individual would have to sort out their own finances etc. because they are not representing a country.

Forgive me for raising one more extension of this train of thought. Then we have a the situation where our country could easily send two teams. One selected by the country and and one "private" entry team selected by their resume's. We could even go so far as to have proffessional and amateur - I know, time to stop...

Regards,

Eric.
Old 11-29-2005, 03:56 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

ORIGINAL: P-51B


ORIGINAL: AMA minutes via JR post

It would be extremely difficult to require proof of citizenship, as percentage wise not many people have U.S. passports.

Not having a passport would likely make it difficult to travel to the World Championships competition don't ya think?!
Yup, unless they're being held here.
Old 11-29-2005, 05:15 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

ORIGINAL: YNOT
Born in the USA pilots should make up the US Team. No offense to the great pilots from other countries that live and work in the US now.
LOL. So, if someone was born in the USA, then renounced the US and took up residence in Afghanistan, working for Mullah Omar - that person is acceptable as a representative of the US in your crazy scheme, ... yet someone who was born outside the US but has been naturalized for 20+ years and who has even served the US military in the front-lines is not ? What a ridiculous idea.

BTW, if you wanna keep adding more & more restrictions, why stop at "born in the USA only" ? Why not decide that only pilots who can trace direct lines of ancestry to the Mayflower should be allowed ?

Better yet - since they folk on the Mayflower were nothing but a bunch of immigrants too, go one better ... only Native American Indians should be allowed to represent the US. NOW we're talking sense !!

Geeze.
Old 11-29-2005, 05:24 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

How about US citizens on USA FAI teams? This is pretty straight forward in my mind.
I can prove my citizenship.... seems that each country should have the burden of
verifying citizenship for its own team members.

If there are not enuff USA citizens to populate a team, then maybe the AMA oughta rethink
any funding for that particular activity.

Old 11-29-2005, 11:52 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

i agree. it should be us citizens. everything we have is goin over seas. all our factorys and jobs.. so id say the way our country is getting. yes it should be us citezens in that. its only fair.. im sure we could not go elsewhere and be there pilots.. !!!!!!!!!! bill
Old 11-30-2005, 01:45 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

How many non-citizens have ever represented the US in F3A, ever? Is there someone in particular that is at issue? If so, who?
Old 11-30-2005, 12:37 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

I will be 50 in another month & was born in the hills of WV. When I was 19 I joined the armed forces, not because of any draft but because of a sense of duty. I went on to serve for over 20 years out of a sense of pride & a sense of responsibility. Today I still serve as a employee of a company whose primary customer is the United States government. I see every day where people are eroding away at the fabric of this great country, allowing non citizens to do any number of things that should be, by all rights, privilages of the citizens of this country.

I cannot fathom anyone who would want to be represented in any form of competition against other countries or nationalities by someone not a citizen of these United States. To me it is a alien concept. By the people, of the people and for the people should not include "& them guys over there too"

Chip, you have my vote & I cannot imagine anyone not supporting you. To me this should not even be up for discussion.
Old 11-30-2005, 01:08 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

"How many non-citizens have ever represented the US in F3A, ever? Is there someone in particular that is at issue? If so, who?

Yes, Quiqui S.
Old 11-30-2005, 02:13 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Oh heck...now I change my mind. I would like to see USofA win!
Old 11-30-2005, 02:35 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: cstevec

I will be 50 in another month & was born in the hills of WV. When I was 19 I joined the armed forces, not because of any draft but because of a sense of duty. I went on to serve for over 20 years out of a sense of pride & a sense of responsibility. Today I still serve as a employee of a company whose primary customer is the United States government. I see every day where people are eroding away at the fabric of this great country, allowing non citizens to do any number of things that should be, by all rights, privilages of the citizens of this country.

I cannot fathom anyone who would want to be represented in any form of competition against other countries or nationalities by someone not a citizen of these United States. To me it is a alien concept. By the people, of the people and for the people should not include "& them guys over there too"

Chip, you have my vote & I cannot imagine anyone not supporting you. To me this should not even be up for discussion.
That's right... and to heck with Emma Lazarus and her The New Colossus*. All of us modlers know the US should not include them guys. Like GordonMc said, we should give it back to the American Indians, and Native ones at that, if you can identify one without a passport.

*
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name,
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Old 11-30-2005, 02:37 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

Oh heck...now I change my mind. I would like to see USofA win!
do you suppose there is some underlying purpose here?

LCS... boy, will Horrace be delighted that RCU now allows cross-posting. I know I am.

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