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Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

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Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Old 11-30-2005, 03:50 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

I find myself in the uncomfortable position of supporting the eligibility for certain aliens to try out for the US FAI team.

In 1966 I was drafted, and went through Army Basic Combat Training with another draftee who happened to be a Colombian citizen and veteran. His name was Oscar Pelaez, and I don't recall being particularly fond of him. I do remember his stories of spending 4 years in the Colombian military before attending school in the US. If he wanted to do business in the US, he had to accept his draft notice, and he did.

Like most draftees, Oscar went on to service in Viet Nam, and if he (or someone else with those kind of credentials) wants to try out for the team... I won't vote against him.

Flame suit on, I'll stick by that one - regardless of how it makes me squirm.
Dave Olson
Old 11-30-2005, 04:39 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: J_R


ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

Oh heck...now I change my mind. I would like to see USofA win!
do you suppose there is some underlying purpose here?

LCS... boy, will Horrace be delighted that RCU now allows cross-posting. I know I am.

Yes, allowing cross posting is one of several major changes I have noted in RCU of late.
Old 11-30-2005, 05:11 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: J_R


ORIGINAL: cstevec

I will be 50 in another month & was born in the hills of WV. When I was 19 I joined the armed forces, not because of any draft but because of a sense of duty. I went on to serve for over 20 years out of a sense of pride & a sense of responsibility. Today I still serve as a employee of a company whose primary customer is the United States government. I see every day where people are eroding away at the fabric of this great country, allowing non citizens to do any number of things that should be, by all rights, privilages of the citizens of this country.

I cannot fathom anyone who would want to be represented in any form of competition against other countries or nationalities by someone not a citizen of these United States. To me it is a alien concept. By the people, of the people and for the people should not include "& them guys over there too"

Chip, you have my vote & I cannot imagine anyone not supporting you. To me this should not even be up for discussion.
That's right... and to heck with Emma Lazarus and her The New Colossus*. All of us modlers know the US should not include them guys. Like GordonMc said, we should give it back to the American Indians, and Native ones at that, if you can identify one without a passport.

*
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name,
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

I guess you just don't get it.

When we took 'em in back then they could'nt wait to become citizens.
Old 11-30-2005, 09:36 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: cstevec


ORIGINAL: J_R


ORIGINAL: cstevec

I will be 50 in another month & was born in the hills of WV. When I was 19 I joined the armed forces, not because of any draft but because of a sense of duty. I went on to serve for over 20 years out of a sense of pride & a sense of responsibility. Today I still serve as a employee of a company whose primary customer is the United States government. I see every day where people are eroding away at the fabric of this great country, allowing non citizens to do any number of things that should be, by all rights, privilages of the citizens of this country.

I cannot fathom anyone who would want to be represented in any form of competition against other countries or nationalities by someone not a citizen of these United States. To me it is a alien concept. By the people, of the people and for the people should not include "& them guys over there too"

Chip, you have my vote & I cannot imagine anyone not supporting you. To me this should not even be up for discussion.
That's right... and to heck with Emma Lazarus and her The New Colossus*. All of us modlers know the US should not include them guys. Like GordonMc said, we should give it back to the American Indians, and Native ones at that, if you can identify one without a passport.

*
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name,
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

I guess you just don't get it.

When we took 'em in back then they could'nt wait to become citizens.
I think I get it OK. I am descended from “ ‘em”, that came back then. I have never forgotten that I am “ ‘em ”. Just exactly what kind of “we” are you? It is hard to imagine that the “we” you speak of is related to “ ‘em “ I sure would hate to think it is the same “ ‘em” that I am related to. Of course, I am just a 4th generation Californian. My California “ ‘em“s are related to some Indiana “’ems” before that, so my “ ‘em”s are just kinda “Johnny come latelys”.
Old 11-30-2005, 10:00 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: Jim Branaum


ORIGINAL: J_R


ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

Oh heck...now I change my mind. I would like to see USofA win!
do you suppose there is some underlying purpose here?

LCS... boy, will Horrace be delighted that RCU now allows cross-posting. I know I am.

Yes, allowing cross posting is one of several major changes I have noted in RCU of late.
Hi Jim

I am sure Dave Brown, and the rest of the EC are aware that putting up a poll, then cross posting (going out and posting only to certain other forums on RCU) is somewhat similar to setting up an election, then going out and telling only the people at YOUR watering hole that there is an election. It's not surprising that the results are somewhat lopsided, don't you think?

Old 11-30-2005, 10:41 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: J_R



Hi Jim

I am sure Dave Brown, and the rest of the EC are aware that putting up a poll, then cross posting (going out and posting only to certain other forums on RCU) is somewhat similar to setting up an election, then going out and telling only the people at YOUR watering hole that there is an election. It's not surprising that the results are somewhat lopsided, don't you think?

Well... it beats shaking babies and kissing hands.
Old 11-30-2005, 11:23 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

ORIGINAL: J_R
I am sure Dave Brown, and the rest of the EC are aware that putting up a poll, then cross posting (going out and posting only to certain other forums on RCU) is somewhat similar to setting up an election, then going out and telling only the people at YOUR watering hole that there is an election. It's not surprising that the results are somewhat lopsided, don't you think?
Sure, it's got to be another of those AMA plots. After all, it couldn't possibly be that Americans want to know that the team they are supporting and cheering on is comprised of fellow Americans.
Old 12-01-2005, 07:12 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Did you ever notice that whenever the AMA is wanting something from the members they always send out a letter/msg askingfor our support. When it is something that the members would definitely have an interest in such as the makeup of our teams for international competition they are silent until it comes to our attention through other channels? Even then sometimes. I would expect with something like this, we would be given the opportunity to voice our opinion. In some cases I guess the elected officials don't feel we are qualified to decide who will represent us.
Old 12-01-2005, 08:04 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

I suspect if you polled the general population of the AMA about an issue like this you will find that while they've got an opinion, when asked, for the most part they really could care less about something like a World Champ team. It would be easy enough to test. Put an article about it in MA and include an email address for responses. See how many emails come in. Most likely it would be a very small percentage of the overall membership.
Old 12-01-2005, 09:33 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: piper_chuck

I suspect if you polled the general population of the AMA about an issue like this you will find that while they've got an opinion, when asked, for the most part they really could care less about something like a World Champ team. It would be easy enough to test. Put an article about it in MA and include an email address for responses. See how many emails come in. Most likely it would be a very small percentage of the overall membership.

Agreed. Given how few people cared enough to vote about something as important as who the AMA president is, I doubt that very many would be galvanized by an issue like this that has so little tangible effect on the vast majority of the membership.
Old 12-02-2005, 02:14 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

If we can have foreign born in out government, both Federal and State (Kissinger, Swartzenager etc) and putting their lives on the line in our military, it seems that we should also accept them in our toy airplane teams.
However, if the consensus doesn't agree, we should then consider making it a 110% U. S. effort; have the chosen use only American made radios, engines etc., and have them build their own airplanes.
Old 12-02-2005, 09:47 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: EloyM

If we can have foreign born in out government, both Federal and State (Kissinger, Swartzenager etc) and putting their lives on the line in our military, it seems that we should also accept them in our toy airplane teams.
However, if the consensus doesn't agree, we should then consider making it a 110% U. S. effort; have the chosen use only American made radios, engines etc., and have them build their own airplanes.

I think the question was in regard to "U.S. Citizen", it did not specify where one was born.
Old 12-02-2005, 10:19 AM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Shouldn't the question be; Should foreign nationals be allowed to compete on the US World Champ Team is the positions need to be filled?

Professional ball teams are doing it, why can't the AMA?

Scott
Old 12-02-2005, 10:39 AM
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ORIGINAL: P-51B
I think the question was in regard to "U.S. Citizen", it did not specify where one was born.
That depends on whose post you read. One guy wanted it to be "US Born" only.
Old 12-02-2005, 12:12 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

I was going by the question in the poll. Point taken though, Gordon.
Old 12-02-2005, 01:35 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

ORIGINAL: scottrc

Shouldn't the question be; Should foreign nationals be allowed to compete on the US World Champ Team is the positions need to be filled?

Professional ball teams are doing it, why can't the AMA?
How on earth are professional baseball teams related to this discussion? They're representing themselves, not the US.

A better example would be to look at the criteria for participating on something like an Olympic team. Wanna know what they say? "Each athlete must be a citizen of the country of the National Olympic Committee which he/she represents..."
Old 12-02-2005, 01:50 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: scottrc

Shouldn't the question be; Should foreign nationals be allowed to compete on the US World Champ Team is the positions need to be filled?

Professional ball teams are doing it, why can't the AMA?

Scott
This is from the FAI Sporting Code (link below to the Sporting Code), which covers full size as well as model aviation. The AMA is a small chip in the overall FAI. What is the position of the U.S. full scale guys on this issue? How much of an odd ball should the AMA be in representing the United States in the FAI?

8.1.3.6.2 A resident of a country who is not a citizen of that country may be issued a sporting licence to
represent the NAC of his country of residence :

http://www.mariosantos.com/pdf/scg.pdf

Old 12-02-2005, 01:57 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: piper_chuck

How on earth are professional baseball teams related to this discussion? They're representing themselves, not the US.

A better example would be to look at the criteria for participating on something like an Olympic team. Wanna know what they say? "Each athlete must be a citizen of the country of the National Olympic Committee which he/she represents..."
Perfect case in point. The U.S. Olympic Committee does not have the final say in who may compete. It is controlled by the worldwide organization. In the case of our models, that is the FAI, and the FAI codes are different than those of the Olympics.
Old 12-02-2005, 02:34 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

ORIGINAL: J_R


ORIGINAL: piper_chuck

How on earth are professional baseball teams related to this discussion? They're representing themselves, not the US.

A better example would be to look at the criteria for participating on something like an Olympic team. Wanna know what they say? "Each athlete must be a citizen of the country of the National Olympic Committee which he/she represents..."
Perfect case in point. The U.S. Olympic Committee does not have the final say in who may compete. It is controlled by the worldwide organization. In the case of our models, that is the FAI, and the FAI codes are different than those of the Olympics.
Actually, the USOC DOES have the final say, they can implement criteria above and beyond that of the IOC. And, the governing body of the sport in question can also implement additional criteria.
Old 12-02-2005, 03:14 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Are you saying that the USOC can allow non-citizens to compete in spite of the statement you posted the the athlete MUST be a citizen?
Old 12-02-2005, 03:51 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: J_R

Are you saying that the USOC can allow non-citizens to compete in spite of the statement you posted the the athlete MUST be a citizen?
Hey JR-

Just to muddy the waters, Puerto Rico fields an Olympic team, though Puerto Ricans are legally native born US citizens, and PR is not a sovereign nation. Maybe Texas could too!

I didn't vote in the poll, as I'm not sure it's really the right question. The US is a nation of immigrants. Maybe Lawful Permanent Residents (LPRs) should be allowed, but not non-immigrant aliens? It appears that at least some of the US Olympic teams allow LPRs on condition that they will be eligible for citizenship before the next Olympics.
I also think the potential for discrimination suits by LPRs excluded from US FAI teams should be investigated before AMA commits to a position that excludes them. Not to infer that I know the answer re their rights as citizens-in-waiting - I don't, but somebody should before they step in the doggy-doo.

Abel

Old 12-02-2005, 03:56 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

Hi Abel

Texas? Definately!

There was a time when a US citizen could not hold dual citizenship. Now one can. Lots of quirks.

I agree, let's get a lawyer and let him/her decide.

best 4 of 7 opinions from a lawyer?
Old 12-02-2005, 05:31 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

That will make the bumper sticker the kids want really mean something....

It says:

"I am from Texas, what country are you from?"

Might become important in the future..[8D]
Old 12-02-2005, 06:35 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens

ORIGINAL: J_R

Are you saying that the USOC can allow non-citizens to compete in spite of the statement you posted the the athlete MUST be a citizen?
No, I am saying the USOC can decide, within their rules, and those of the IOC, who can and can't be on the US team. The IOC cannot tell the USOC who will be on the US team, the USOC decides that. The rules determine eligibilty, and the individual countries have the final say about who, within the scope of these rules, will be on their team.

Why do you insist on twisting what I said into something different? It was an example of an international competition that requires a country's team to be made up of their own citizens.
Old 12-02-2005, 06:40 PM
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Default RE: Should positions on US World Champ Teams be filled by US Citizens


ORIGINAL: J_R

Hi Abel

Texas? Definately!

There was a time when a US citizen could not hold dual citizenship. Now one can. Lots of quirks.

I agree, let's get a lawyer and let him/her decide.

best 4 of 7 opinions from a lawyer?
Nay, nay!

I wasn't saying get a lawyer, for Pete's sake!! You know I despise the vermin.

I'll be more specific:

To Chip: It might be worth your while to ask USCIS the question re civil rights/guarantees of protection from discrimination as it applies to LPRs before taking your case for a citizenship qualification for FAI Team selection to AMA for sanction.

And for Jim Branaum: I'm looking to you to get a movement underway for IOC recognition of the Texas Republic. Bull riding is one the few spectator sports I really enjoy. I usually prefer having a go at it myself over watching - but never had enough cajones (or beer) for that venue............

Abel

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