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AMA alternative ?

Old 12-08-2002, 01:08 AM
  #26  
fliers1
 
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Default AMA alternative ?

Or anyone can join the Canadian modeling organization MAAC for only $32.00 US and still be able to legally fly on AMA fields. I don't know why no one has mentioned doing something like that. Wouldn't that solve everyone's problem AMA?

http://www.maac.ca/forms/form_membership.pdf

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors
Old 12-08-2002, 03:22 AM
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P-51B
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Default AMA alternative ?

Originally posted by fliers1
Or anyone can join the Canadian modeling organization MAAC for only $32.00 US and still be able to legally fly on AMA fields. I don't know why no one has mentioned doing something like that. Wouldn't that solve everyone's problem AMA?

http://www.maac.ca/forms/form_membership.pdf

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors
I see this in a separate thread also, I think this is interesting, where do I find that AMA allows MAAC members to use AMA Chartered club fields the same as an AMA member, is it on the AMA website somewhere???
Old 12-08-2002, 07:01 AM
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J_R
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Clarence (fliers1)

Normally reciprocal agreements have limitations. That, coupled with the fact that the Area of Operation is defined in the MAAC by-laws as Canada, would seem to necessitate being a Canadian resident to be a member of MAAC.

In addition, there are other issues. Most AMA chartered clubs require membership in the club to fly at their field as a member. The AMA charter requires that the members be AMA members, not MAAC members.

Because of the reciprocal agreement a MAAC member can fly in AMA sanctioned events. Because of the reciprocal agreement the MAAC member can fly at an AMA chartered club as a guest, assuming that the club allows guests (not all do). Keep in mind that most clubs have some sort of limit on the number of times a guest may fly at the club, before they must become a member.

Just as the states have reciprocal agreements with car licenses, so that you may drive from one state to another, there are limits caused by a change in residence. In the case of cars, most states require that you re-license your car in your new state of residence within 10 days of establishing residence.

If I were you, before I suggested to others sending off money to the MAAC, from a U.S. resident, I would check with both MAAC and the AMA as to the content of the reciprocal agreement that they have, and their position on such an effort.

JR
Old 12-08-2002, 09:01 AM
  #29  
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Default AMA alternative ?

JR,
I belonged to MAAC a few years ago and belonged to two AMA clubs and had no problems doing so. I'm not an insurance lawyer, but the president of one of the clubs was Canadian and he didn't have any problems with it. Why I brought it up was that so many people don't want to join AMA and if they join UMA, they would run into the problems you listed. From what I gather on related forums, perhaps some people just want insurance and MAAC might be an alternative other than UMA.

As far as I know, there are no legal problems belonging to MAAC and flying in the US permanately. My philosophy is, for every problem there is a solution, it seems it's just the opposite for too many others.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors
Old 12-08-2002, 09:20 AM
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Default AMA alternative ?

Originally posted by fliers1
Or anyone can join the Canadian modeling organization MAAC for only $32.00 US and still be able to legally fly on AMA fields. I don't know why no one has mentioned doing something like that. Wouldn't that solve everyone's problem AMA?

http://www.maac.ca/forms/form_membership.pdf

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors
For all of the above...nevermind.

But there for the grace of God, go the AMA?

http://www.rccombat.com/forum/topic....rplane+Designs

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors
Old 12-09-2002, 05:42 AM
  #31  
Capgains
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Default AMA alternative ?

This doesn't seem to follow your friendliness rule, calling someone an outlaw because they are frequencies you think are yours????? Sorry, but the government owns the frequencies not you or the AMA. But, I would venture to say that if an incident occurred because the park flyer turned on a radio near an AMA site, the AMA site and flyer would get off the hook with the park flyer getting the liability. Not a lawyer, just a guess.


I'm sorry P-51B. I was more or less repeating the context of the conversations, and inferring that some of our members act as if we AMA members own those frequencies. I know we don't, but sometimes I don't transition well from third person.

As for running for office.... maybe someday. Right now I am raising two young ones, have to teach them all that I can about modeling. My wife says that I pay too much attention to my planes.... I have heard as we get older she'll like that
Old 12-09-2002, 08:12 AM
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Default AMA alternative ?

Originally posted by bpannier
...That is like saying you can only drive on I 15 with Allstate insurance and to drive on I 95 you have to have Travelers insurance....I don't think so.....
No, actually, it is like going to Britain and deciding that you prefer American traffic laws, so you are going to ignore the British ones.

I don't know why this is so difficult for people to understand. If you join an AMA sanctioned club, you must join the AMA and follow the AMA safety code in order to have adequate insurance coverage. If you fly at a UMA club, then you have to have UMA and follow their safety code. If you travel around the country to fly, I suppose you had better shell out for both.

If you travel internationally and want to fly in an FAI sanctioned event, you have to be a member of the AMA in order to obtain reciprocal insurance coverage from the modelsport organization in that country, and to be allowed to compete. As far as I know, UMA does not sanction competition, and does not have reciprocal agreements with any foreign modelsport organizations, nor with the FAI.

If you own your own quarter-section and want to fly model airplanes from your own pivot road, you can do anything you want. If you let others fly from your private site, it is up to you what you want your visitors to do, but most landlords are going to insist that the lessees get coverage from the AMA.
Old 12-09-2002, 07:59 PM
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Jim Branaum
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Default AMA alternative ?

Originally posted by ctdahle


SNIP

If you travel internationally and want to fly in an FAI sanctioned event, you have to be a member of the AMA in order to obtain reciprocal insurance coverage from the modelsport organization in that country, and to be allowed to compete. As far as I know, UMA does not sanction competition, and does not have reciprocal agreements with any foreign modelsport organizations, nor with the FAI.

SNIP

I have reviewed this very subject of reciprocity with the people in Muncie as we have (had and will have) several from European nations as club members. The single reciprocal agreement that I was told exists is with Canada. There are no others. However, the international modeler can join the AMA for a reduced rate if proof of modelsport organization membership of the homeland is provided.
Old 12-10-2002, 09:09 PM
  #34  
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Default MAAC INSTEAD OF AMA? ?? WON'T WORK

Originally posted by fliers1
Or anyone can join the Canadian modeling organization MAAC for only $32.00 US and still be able to legally fly on AMA fields. I don't know why no one has mentioned doing something like that. Wouldn't that solve everyone's problem AMA?
WON'T WORK!!!!

What follows is copied DIRECTLY from an e-mail reply from the MAAC when I sent them an E mail asking about this.

Thank you for your interest in MAAC. We have a reciprocal agreement with AMA for insurance purposes. We do not accept members from USA unless they are a member of AMA first and they refer Canadians back to us.
Old 12-10-2002, 09:16 PM
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Default Re: MAAC INSTEAD OF AMA? ?? WON'T WORK

Doesn't make any difference anyway, at least for a while, because MAAC's insurance carrier may not renew their policy anyway. Yep, forgot that when I joined many years ago, I also belonged to AMA. At the time, they didn't mention any referrals.

Thanks for clearing that up, didn't know for sure, but thought I would bring it up as I was certain that someone would find out.

Even in AMA, sometimes the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

Take care,
CCR
http://www.kites.org/rc_instructors
Old 12-10-2002, 09:18 PM
  #36  
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Default AMA alternative ?

Originally posted by P-51B


I see this in a separate thread also, I think this is interesting, where do I find that AMA allows MAAC members to use AMA Chartered club fields the same as an AMA member, is it on the AMA website somewhere???
YES IT IS... BUT see previous post by me.

I don't remember the AMA document number, but the document is titled "Flying At AMA Chartered Club Sites

Third paragraph of this document states mid-way through the paragraph...
In the same vein, if the landowner for your club's chartered club field has granted the club exclusive flying privileges, the club shoult ONLY allow AMA members and current members of the Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC) to fly at the field.
Old 12-11-2002, 12:26 AM
  #37  
P-51B
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Default AMA alternative ?

O.K. I support AMA, but with all this discussion, what if the "landlord" has a dual lease, one to the AMA club, and one to a UMA club, can everyone fly? Is this allowed? Are there two sets of rules?
Old 12-11-2002, 12:56 AM
  #38  
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Default AMA alternative ?

Originally posted by P-51B
O.K. I support AMA, but with all this discussion, what if the "landlord" has a dual lease, one to the AMA club, and one to a UMA club, can everyone fly? Is this allowed? Are there two sets of rules?
This is what I copied off of the UMA site:

Here are a few advantages with UMA:

Buddy cord or other UMA approved training is okay with non-members.

Complete coverage for fly-ins.

No restrictions as to who flies at your approved field.

No deductible

Family memberships available

Very few restrictions (see Safety Code)

Primary Coverage

Take care,
CCR
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Old 12-11-2002, 03:47 AM
  #39  
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Default Re: Re: Promoting the Hobby

Originally posted by Capgains


Okay, then tell me what if pbannier were to show up at your field, with his UMA insurance, as a guest of one of your club members? Is he allowed to fly? The site owner insurance should cover him right? I'd almost bet not, and that was one of the problems AMA was bringing forward. So unless the field is a publicly owned entity with it's own policy (IE a county or state park) you need the AMA site owner's coverage, and it is only compatible with AMA members. I would hope it covers the site owner against non-insured members that show up and hurt themselves. Otherwise the insurance is kind of useless. Then you would have site owner insurance that only covers the people that are all ready insured by AMA, and since the insurance company is not going to sue itself if a claim is made, everything is under control.

It would seem to me the only reason to have site owner insurance is to protect the site owner against people not covered by AMA who try to sue. Therefore you would think the UMA guy could fly there. But I still bet not.

AMA is promoting AMA membership with these tactics. How can it be promoting flying when it creates a barrier to exclude other flyers?
I am coming to this late but here is my $.02. I have flown at two different county parks, in different states/timezones, in addition to belonging to four different clubs in four different states in the last 27 years that I have been an AMA member.

One park required AMA insurance as a condition to fly there, it was checked every year, I never really looked into why they required it but that was the way it was. Even with that requirement, they had to institute a requirement to fly for a check pilot before you got the big red P on your permit that said you were a pilot who could fly alone. It wasn't a big deal, take off, fly a figure eight, make an approach downwind, then and approach and landing into the wind. Took three minutes. Why do this? Because folks showed up (with AMA/permit no less), that tried to fly without knowing how! I had personal experience, I crashed while trying to E & E from a 1/2A sized airplane launched from behind the pits with the radio off.

The other park (which I still fly at), requires AMA now, but SFA was perfectly acceptable also when it existed. I don't fly there much because the controls that were put in place at the first field are not present, and it can be dangerous to me and my aircraft to fly there if there are more than about three other flyers present.

Neither field has/had a chartered club, but the requirement was still there to have insurance coverage.

The park commissions are trying to limit liability. Sort of a spread the wealth deal. From lawsuits I have seen in aviation, everyone involved in a mishap gets sued, in our case it would be the pilot, the landowner, possibly the designer/producer/builder of the airplane (it happens with full scale homebuilts), and the various manufacturers of components. The siteowners policy doesn't protect them from us, it protects them from others who may be affected by activities on their property. You are correct, why would a company sue itself?

I would have to say I don't see where AMA is broken, either. Is it perfect? Far from, but is any process or material created by man perfect? I belong to several social and/or professional organizations, in addition to being in a union (ALPA). I am most active in the union, because without it, I wouldn't have the money to fly model airplanes, own a home, etc. CAUTION, SOAP BOX MODE: If you don't like how things are going, get involved, and make a difference. AMA is non-profit, much like many groups we belong to in model and full scale aviation. It is nothing without its members. I am happy with the way things are going with AMA so I am not active in affairs beyond voting (you did vote, right?) END SOAPBOX MODE.

For now, it is below 32F/0C outside and I have balsa and ply just waiting to be turned into and airplane for next year! Everybody build straight and strong, and fly the pants off it when it is done.

Jim
Old 02-05-2022, 12:54 PM
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Wow,
I'm surprised this hasn't risen from the dead over the last 20 years!
Old 02-05-2022, 02:45 PM
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It just did.
Old 02-05-2022, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by LinerDrivr View Post
Wow,
I'm surprised this hasn't risen from the dead over the last 20 years!
mainly because the UMA or whatever they were called folded, so, no reason to resurrect.
Old 02-06-2022, 10:19 PM
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I have been the RC airplane hobby some 28 or 29 years and I think the Sport flyers assoc was in business when I first got into the hobby. After AMA sued Sport Flyers and they folded
there has been talk from time to time about another org to compete with the AMA and attempts have been made to start such a org but non seem to get very far.

IMO unless the AMA folds there wont be any other org like it really being able to get up and running and the simple reason is AMA has at least 95% of all organized flying
sites in country charted to them and tell the sites to only let AMA members fly at the sites. Any organization that wants to offer the same services as the AMA will
need flying sites for its members and since none of the existing sites are able to dual charter that pretty much kills any attempts of new organizations to get started.
Old 02-07-2022, 07:01 AM
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I’ve heard multiple times that AMA would not allow a chartered field to accept SFA insurance. I’m not sure I buy that. In the 2001 time frame the SCCMAS club in Morgan Hill California would accept either. I was well enough connected in the club that if AMA were making threats I would hope I would have heard about it.

My understanding with the lawsuit between AMA and SFA is that in order to gain members the SFA were making false statements about the AMA.

So back to the topic, I 100% agree with Ira that unless/until the AMA folds, there will not be any sort of organization offering us a comparable package. Things are born out of necessity and right now that need is being fulfilled. Most only care about the insurance and card that grants them access. Beyond that most don’t pay any attention to what the AMA does. Once that is gone we may see some alternatives spring up. Maybe the special interests groups will ban together such as NSRCA, LSF, NPRA, MAMBA etc.
Old 02-07-2022, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Iíve heard multiple times that AMA would not allow a chartered field to accept SFA insurance. Iím not sure I buy that. In the 2001 time frame the SCCMAS club in Morgan Hill California would accept either. I was well enough connected in the club that if AMA were making threats I would hope I would have heard about it.

My understanding with the lawsuit between AMA and SFA is that in order to gain members the SFA were making false statements about the AMA.

So back to the topic, I 100% agree with Ira that unless/until the AMA folds, there will not be any sort of organization offering us a comparable package. Things are born out of necessity and right now that need is being fulfilled. Most only care about the insurance and card that grants them access. Beyond that most donít pay any attention to what the AMA does. Once that is gone we may see some alternatives spring up. Maybe the special interests groups will ban together such as NSRCA, LSF, NPRA, MAMBA etc.
I don't know what they could do, but they do have skin in the game.
AMA Government Advocacy Coalition | Academy of Model Aeronautics
Old 02-15-2022, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie View Post
Iíve heard multiple times that AMA would not allow a chartered field to accept SFA insurance. Iím not sure I buy that. In the 2001 time frame the SCCMAS club in Morgan Hill California would accept either. I was well enough connected in the club that if AMA were making threats I would hope I would have heard about it.

My understanding with the lawsuit between AMA and SFA is that in order to gain members the SFA were making false statements about the AMA.

So back to the topic, I 100% agree with Ira that unless/until the AMA folds, there will not be any sort of organization offering us a comparable package. Things are born out of necessity and right now that need is being fulfilled. Most only care about the insurance and card that grants them access. Beyond that most donít pay any attention to what the AMA does. Once that is gone we may see some alternatives spring up. Maybe the special interests groups will ban together such as NSRCA, LSF, NPRA, MAMBA etc.
I remember when one of the public fields I flew at accepted either, but you had to have one. I had the same understanding of the lawsuit, it wasnít the competition, it I was the libel (or slander Iím not a lawyer) that went on.

If you donít have enough private land to fly on insurance is a fact of life. AMA from what Iíve seen is trying to be more responsive than it was when the latest surge first started. Our local public field/park has made provisions for FPV, multi-rotor, and rockets that they didnít have years ago. You still have to get a permit from them by furnishing your AMA and FAA numbers. Safety is still an uphill battle along with education.

We have people calling the police on completely legal 107 drone ops because the property was adjoining an elementary school! (Sorry folks, little Bobby picking his nose on the playground isnít THAT interesting!)

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