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US teams vs ??????

Old 12-20-2005, 10:56 AM
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Default US teams vs ??????

Well, there seems to be quite a bit of discussion about whether we should let non-US citizens fly on the US teams.

Let me give you a little background on myself first to clarify my reasoning. Ive been flying for a long time used to fly lots of nitro, I now fly mostly electric 3D foam airplanes. Call me a "parkflyer" if you like. I enjoy going to and watching pattern contests, and any type of modeling competition. My dad was a pattern flyer from yesteryear days of Ron Chidgey, Phil Kraft, and others.. He had the opportunity to fly on the German team in the finals. He was not a German citizen. He turned it down. I enjoy watching every competition I can get to go watch. Id even like to compete.

Ive watched all the top flyers including Chip Hyde, Quique, Tony, and many others. Everyone has a favorite pilot...kinda like every Nascar fan has a favorite driver. I really like watching Quique fly. He's my favorite pilot, I get a kick out of watching the smooooooth finesse he exhibits with an airplane. I'd like to see him go on the US team and take victory from the French.


That being said. I dont know Quique's status or his personal background. I dont know if he's a US citizen or not. To be quite honest, its none of my business. I do however have a personal interest in how my country represents itself. The Olympics have allowed competitors to country-hop. Honestly...its a disgrace. It disgusts me to see an American citizen competing in the Olympics for another countries honor.

In my humble opinion. There should be NO non-US citizens competing on the US team.

The World Championships are bigger than any one pilot. They are bigger than any pilots ego or flying style. It's is a competition for NATIONAL pride, recognition, and honor. The members of each nation's team should go there NOT for their personal ego's, but to represent their country in a world event.

THATS WHAT THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS ARE FOR!

Well, that pretty much sums it up for me.
Old 12-20-2005, 11:58 AM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

Well said. I couldn't agree more.


Woops
Old 12-20-2005, 12:01 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

ORIGINAL: bdavison

Well, there seems to be quite a bit of discussion about whether we should let non-US citizens fly on the US teams.
Hopefully all of the internet wags who are going to solve the "problems" of FAI world level competition from the comfort of their keyboards will also be there to help support the Teams financially when they need it. But I'm not going to hold my breath.

Old 12-20-2005, 12:33 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????


ORIGINAL: bdavison

The World Championships are bigger than any one pilot. They are bigger than any pilots ego or flying style.


I agree with your post completely...
accept the line quoted above... there are a few "top" pilots out there that can disproove that sentance[:'(]
Old 12-20-2005, 02:31 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

The Olympics have allowed competitors to country-hop. Honestly...its a disgrace. It disgusts me to see an American citizen competing in the Olympics for another countries honor.
Sorry you're wrong about that. The Olympics have strict rules against it. You must be naturalized to participate. Since it's the traditional rule over the last 2700 years, I agree with them.

But since F3A is not an Olympic sport, the Olympics being HIGHLY politcal, and most other International sports do allow it, I say let em fly. I mean ... it's a friggin' flying toy.

I do however have a personal interest in how my country represents itself.
By the way thread starter, what is your feelings again US legal residents fighting in the USA military in those combat games? I mean they fly our UAV's afterall while wearing American patch and representing your country. Does that disgust you too? Let me guess .... you're all for them taking a bullet, but not playing with Chip kicking his butt in points.

LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
Old 12-20-2005, 02:43 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

personally I do not equate flying toy airplanes with fighting in the military....

for me.. I think it should be citizens in the army...but I don't run the army do I?
Old 12-20-2005, 02:46 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

personally I do not equate flying toy airplanes with fighting in the military....
Really? I beg the differ. Legal American residents are flying UAV missions right now in Iraq. These are radio controlled airplanes that cost $1-10M each. Sounds pretty close to me. They may not be toys, but some guys don't consider their $30K radio controlled jets toys either.

for me.. I think it should be citizens in the army...but I don't run the army do I?
Here is a link to US Military website where you can post your messages to soldiers fighing in Iraq. If you let em know how you feel about that on RCU you may as well tell them before they bite a bullet tomorrow directly to them.

http://www.americasupportsyou.mil/am...you/index.aspx
- Funny that they call the website "America Supports You".

More proof why it should be a requirement for all USA "patriots" to be required to pick up a gun and learn how to hit a target with it, the right way, in the US Military (pref The Marines).
Old 12-20-2005, 02:57 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

.
Old 12-20-2005, 03:04 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????


ORIGINAL: STLPilot

for me.. I think it should be citizens in the army...but I don't run the army do I?
Here is a link to US Military website where you can post your messages to soldiers fighing in Iraq. If you let em know how you feel about that on RCU you may as well tell them before they bite a bullet tomorrow.

http://www.americasupportsyou.mil/am...you/index.aspx


More proof why it should be a requirement for all USA "patriots" to be required to pick up a gun and learn how to hit a target with it, the right way.
Why do you insist on this thought? The answer would be that while I don't agree with the policy, that doesn't stop me from thanking them for putting their life on the line for me. This idea(that I'm against non-citizens fighting for me) is a stupid as saying that when QQ helps America win the F3A World Championship, I'll be not helping to support his effort and skills.


Sincerely,
Woops
Old 12-20-2005, 03:12 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

The answer would be that while I don't agree with the policy, that doesn't stop me from thanking them for putting their life on the line for me.
Well the policy of non residents fighting as Americans in the US military has been around since before the civil war, there aren't too many policies in American history that have never been tampered with like this one. Obviously The Framers had more vision then the hypocrites in this thread and the other threads in knowing what it takes to make a nation a true democracy.
Old 12-20-2005, 03:19 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

The answer would be that while I don't agree with the policy, that doesn't stop me from thanking them for putting their life on the line for me.
Well the policy of non residents fighting as Americans in the US military has been around since before 1776, there aren't too many policies in American history that have never been tampered with like this one. Obviously The Framers had more vision then the hypocrites in this thread and the other threads in knowing what it takes to make a nation a true democracy.
I really don't care how long this policy has been around, or why it's been here. I don't agree with it. BTW, how many states were in the U.S.A. in 1776? What was the ratio of settled territory:unsettled territory in 1776? How many people in America could read in 1776?

Sincerely,
Woops

(edited spelling)
Old 12-20-2005, 03:21 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

STL

point well taken...

<----- foot firmly in mouth....

Darn you people!! I hate it when I actually have to think!

and as for toys...
there is a saying something like... the difference between men and boys are the price of the toys!
Old 12-20-2005, 03:29 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

ORIGINAL: woops
I really don't care how long this policy has been around, or why it's been here. I don't agree with it.
From the mouth of the Teddy Roosevelt:

[b]"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin." [b][/size]

Heck, but what did he know.

Here is that link again, don't tell me about your point of view, tell them, patriot.
http://www.americasupportsyou.mil/am...you/index.aspx
Old 12-20-2005, 03:32 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????


ORIGINAL: STLPilot

ORIGINAL: woops
I really don't care how long this policy has been around, or why it's been here. I don't agree with it.
From the mouth of the President that took us through WWII, Franklin D Roosevelt:

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin."


Heck, but what did he know. He only kicked the s... out of Germany and Japan.
That doesn't say anything about non-citizens serving in the military.


Sincerely,
Woops
Old 12-20-2005, 03:35 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

Sorry it was Teddy.

That doesn't say anything about non-citizens serving in the military.
EXACTLY! It says everyone.
Old 12-20-2005, 03:41 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????


ORIGINAL: STLPilot

Sorry it was Teddy.

That doesn't say anything about non-citizens serving in the military.
EXACTLY! It says everyone.
When I read:
"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin."
I think that he is talking about "discrimination against such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin." NOT because of citizenship.


Sincerely,
Woops
Old 12-20-2005, 04:17 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

Here is a nice website for the guys who are against immigrant soldiers in the USA.

http://www.ailf.org/pubed/defendingamerica.htm

First sentence sums it up, they are speaking about the US Military: Our understanding of the meaning of American patriotism would not be complete without considering the pride and commitment immigrants demonstrate on behalf of the United States.

Might want to look around at some of the links and read up on immigration and the military. I'm sure some of those people would really appreciate your "thanks for you service, but I'm against you holding a weapon for USA".

Another good link about America revitalizaion and immigrants: http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_revitalize_index.asp

Presidents talking about immigration:
http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_presidents_index.asp
Old 12-20-2005, 04:30 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

The military is a WHOLE different story.
First of all, being a former active duty US military member in a LONG chain of US military family members. I think Im qualified to chime in on this.

I firmly believe that the people flooding into this country to take advantage of our way of life, constitutional protections and freedoms, prosperity, religeous freedoms, etc should be willing to protect it. Regardless of whether they are citizens or not. It would not be fair to all the US citizens and naturalized citizens if they were expected to defend the country while all the immigrants got a "free ride". NO immigrant has been forced to go fight in Iraq. They are all VOLUNTEERS. They signed up. And BRAVO...well done brothers in arms. I salute you. All of our fine men and women in the military think so much of this country and its freedoms that they are willing to die for it. If you dont like all the responsibilities of residing in the US....then get the hell out. That's another US freedom...you dont have to stay if you dont like it.


Competing in a World Championship has NOTHING to do with defending the country, its beliefs, or freedoms. To suggest that a Model Aircraft Competitor is equal with a US military member in that respect is completely out of line. A pattern competitor represents his or her country in competitive games. Defending our country is NO game. At the end of a pattern competition, both parties go home alive to their families.





Old 12-20-2005, 04:44 PM
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ORIGINAL: STLPilot

Here is a nice website for the guys who are against immigrant soldiers in the USA.

http://www.ailf.org/pubed/defendingamerica.htm

First sentence sums it up: Our understanding of the meaning of American patriotism would not be complete without considering the pride and commitment immigrants demonstrate on behalf of the United States.

Might want to look around at some of the links and read up on immigration and the military. I'm sure some of those people would really appreciate your "thanks for you service, but I'm against you holding a weapon for USA".
I'm sure they would, but why don't they want to be a U.S. citizen? If they are truly "Americans",(as you asserted as your adjective deffinition in the previous thread that this was discussed) why not become the noun deffinition?(BTW, do you even know what an adjective is?)Now, I do understand some issues where the U.S. might need a citizen of another country to help.(as in a spy etc.)I think that becoming a U.S. citizen ensures the fact that you want to help America. I think that it helps keep the door shut that might lead one to "buy talent". I also think that the IOC should allow only athletes who are citizens of the state that they represent.

Sincerely,
Woops


(BTW, you have made me think about if it's my own prejudices getting in the way of my real opinion. I'll have to think about it after I take care of a rat the size of a chipmunk.[:-])
Old 12-20-2005, 05:02 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

To suggest that a Model Aircraft Competitor is equal with a US military member in that respect is completely out of line. A pattern competitor represents his or her country in competitive games. Defending our country is NO game. At the end of a pattern competition, both parties go home alive to their families.
You have some valid points. But your point about an American representing this country in arms does have many similarities and Americans representing themselves in sport or game for the USA. One of the most obvious similarities is that they both wear an American Flag as a symbol on their body to distinguish them from the people they are up against. I could go on with a list of dozens of other similarities as well if you would like to hear them, just ask, I have them ready to roll.

The Olympics Games were founded on the basis of manuevers, tactics and weapons of the Greek and Roman Military. The javelin, the discus, the hammer and chain, the pole vault and many others were all military games converted into sport. My point being that "games of the civilian world" are much in fact very much like those in the military, you can easily compare the two. These military games are still in use today in the modern Olympics.

Now if you tell me you can't compare the Olympics to F3A, that's just a load of crap. Sport is sport, whether it's played on a chess board or a football field. Go play linebacker against top rated offense and see how close sport can compare to war.

Also there are people in this thread that are in fact not only against people playing in our sport, but are predjudice against immigrants fighting in our military. Luckily you at least show that you respect the legal immigrants half as much as some people.

And I too have proudly served in the military as well.
Old 12-20-2005, 05:18 PM
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ORIGINAL: STLPilot
Also there are people in this thread that are in fact not only against people playing in our sport, but are predjudice against immigrants fighting in our military. Surprisingly it seems they have the same opinions about both which is they should not volunteer to fight or to play in sport, which is INSANE.

And I too have proudly served in the military as well.
STLPilot, I don't appreciate the name calling. It degrades yourself as one who has opinion and doesn't consider anyone's opinions as potentially valid. I do listen to your opinions and respect them. (I also respect Abel's, Hoss fly's, etc.) At this time, I've come to agree with bdavison when he writes this:
I firmly believe that the people flooding into this country to take advantage of our way of life, constitutional protections and freedoms, prosperity, religeous freedoms, etc should be willing to protect it. Regardless of whether they are citizens or not. It would not be fair to all the US citizens and naturalized citizens if they were expected to defend the country while all the immigrants got a "free ride". NO immigrant has been forced to go fight in Iraq. They are all VOLUNTEERS. They signed up. And BRAVO...well done brothers in arms. I salute you. All of our fine men and women in the military think so much of this country and its freedoms that they are willing to die for it. If you dont like all the responsibilities of residing in the US....then get the hell out. That's another US freedom...you dont have to stay if you dont like it.


Competing in a World Championship has NOTHING to do with defending the country, its beliefs, or freedoms. To suggest that a Model Aircraft Competitor is equal with a US military member in that respect is completely out of line. A pattern competitor represents his or her country in competitive games. Defending our country is NO game. At the end of a pattern competition, both parties go home alive to their families

Sincerely,
Woops
Old 12-20-2005, 05:25 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????


ORIGINAL: bdavison

The military is a WHOLE different story.
First of all, being a former active duty US military member in a LONG chain of US military family members. I think Im qualified to chime in on this.

I firmly believe that the people flooding into this country to take advantage of our way of life, constitutional protections and freedoms, prosperity, religeous freedoms, etc should be willing to protect it. Regardless of whether they are citizens or not. It would not be fair to all the US citizens and naturalized citizens if they were expected to defend the country while all the immigrants got a "free ride". NO immigrant has been forced to go fight in Iraq. They are all VOLUNTEERS. They signed up. And BRAVO...well done brothers in arms. I salute you. All of our fine men and women in the military think so much of this country and its freedoms that they are willing to die for it. If you dont like all the responsibilities of residing in the US....then get the hell out. That's another US freedom...you dont have to stay if you dont like it.


Competing in a World Championship has NOTHING to do with defending the country, its beliefs, or freedoms. To suggest that a Model Aircraft Competitor is equal with a US military member in that respect is completely out of line. A pattern competitor represents his or her country in competitive games. Defending our country is NO game. At the end of a pattern competition, both parties go home alive to their families.

I find this uncomfortable, but I'm still going to point out that i was drafted in 1966 and went through basic combat training with an alien named Oscar Peleaz. Oscar was Colombian, as I recall, and went through everything I did and more. His prior Colombian military service and U.S. student status didn't keep him from being drafted, and he wanted to do business with the US. As far as I know he's still a Colombian citizen, and if he wants to compete for our teams, I can't vote against him. He earned it.

I don't think that aligns with the logic in your post, so I guess we'll have to disagree.

Good luck,
Dave Olson
Old 12-20-2005, 05:28 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

What is name calling? Calling you predjudice? Sorry, but that's not name calling. If you don't believe an legal Ameican immigrant should fight in the military, that's prejudice by definition, it's not an insult. If I called you a smelly bear, then that's name calling since I've never smelled you before.
Old 12-20-2005, 05:31 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

To suggest that a Model Aircraft Competitor is equal with a US military member in that respect is completely out of line. A pattern competitor represents his or her country in competitive games. Defending our country is NO game.
Hey I just thought about something else. When they have RC Combat as an International sport, what happens then? It's funny when I thought about "RC Combat", if you can't compare "RC to Combat" and they are contradictive to each other then that makes the term "RC Combat" officially an oxymoron!!!!
Old 12-20-2005, 05:37 PM
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Default RE: US teams vs ??????

Just so I am clear. An immigrant has the right, almost the responsibility, to go fight and perhaps die, to protect our freedom to tell them that they cannot fly toy airplanes in pursuit of our national honor on the model airplane field of battle.


Cool. Makes perfect sense to me.

Just about as much sense as people telling me that others have laid their lives on the line to defend my freedoms, including my freedom of speech, so I better shut the hell up and stop questioning what we are doing.

And one more time - How many of you are going to step up to the plate and help support the US Teams when they need money to go defend our national pride???

And BTW - I served in the military (US Navy) as well. But that does not make my opinion any more or less valuable.

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