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Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

Old 01-10-2006, 02:23 PM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

ORIGINAL: SoCal GliderGuider

<snip>
Page 24 of the http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/500-l.pdf

So member-to-member coverage is excluded in the insurance contract, but what's the big hairy deal? As I said above (post #26), it doesn't reflect what the coverage really is, or so I am told. We discussed that in this forum about a month ago. See :
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_35...2/key_/tm.htm# (starting at post #41)

Abel
Old 01-10-2006, 03:07 PM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

Charter Clubs exist because of the insurance which gives a member some assurance of being somewhat compensated if another member injures him/her. That is what it's all about. If I only wanted AMA because of my insurance, then I would not need AMA. It's only that other Ya-Who that I want insured.
Just another of the EC's maneuvers that I could never understand what they had in mind.
I though that one member did not have (major) coverage from another member right now?
Old 01-10-2006, 04:54 PM
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ORIGINAL: mr_matt

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

Charter Clubs exist because of the insurance which gives a member some assurance of being somewhat compensated if another member injures him/her. That is what it's all about. If I only wanted AMA because of my insurance, then I would not need AMA. It's only that other Ya-Who that I want insured.
Just another of the EC's maneuvers that I could never understand what they had in mind.
I though that one member did not have (major) coverage from another member right now?

Last I heard (which could be out of date by now), the member to member coverage was reinstated because of the outcry that arose when the AMA tried to kill it off. However, member-to-family cover HAS been successfully killed off - i.e. the AMA is telling you NOT to bring your family to the flying field (unless all family members are members). Quite how telling the family to stay home counts as promoting model aviation to non members is quite beyond me though.

Gordon
Old 01-10-2006, 10:08 PM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

I went to the AMA site and looked up #'s of accidents. A joke. No details or numbers of types from what size or amount of damages.
It must really be bad, if they will not post any detailed facts for the paying owners, us.
Flying is dangerous.
Thats why the EC wants to cover no one at the field unless they have to.
How many AMA fields have a sign posting who is covered and who is not?
The statement that we are a TINY group that is a noisey bunch makes us the perfect scapegoat for wimpy politicians.
Love to see them try this at a private aiport for noise or safety.

Old 01-11-2006, 11:40 AM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

ORIGINAL: abel_pranger

ORIGINAL: SoCal GliderGuider

<snip>
Page 24 of the http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/500-l.pdf

So member-to-member coverage is excluded in the insurance contract, but what's the big hairy deal? As I said above (post #26), it doesn't reflect what the coverage really is, or so I am told. We discussed that in this forum about a month ago. See :
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_35...2/key_/tm.htm# (starting at post #41)

Abel
And the findings of that prior thread are inconclusive. What one is told by the staff and the EC and what is the actual signed agreement are two different things. The posted policy is the agreement unless it has be amended. I see no amendments within or at the end of the PDF.
Old 01-11-2006, 01:09 PM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

ORIGINAL: SoCal GliderGuider

ORIGINAL: abel_pranger


So member-to-member coverage is excluded in the insurance contract, but what's the big hairy deal? As I said above (post #26), it doesn't reflect what the coverage really is, or so I am told. We discussed that in this forum about a month ago. See :
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_35...2/key_/tm.htm# (starting at post #41)

Abel
And the findings of that prior thread are inconclusive. What one is told by the staff and the EC and what is the actual signed agreement are two different things. The posted policy is the agreement unless it has be amended. I see no amendments within or at the end of the PDF.
Awww, man!

Have you told your kid the truth about the tooth fairy, too?

After looking through about 16 pages of exclusions, I wonder just what IS covered.....and who on staff and EC is NOT covering.

Abel
Old 01-11-2006, 04:08 PM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

ORIGINAL: Gordon Mc



Last I heard (which could be out of date by now), the member to member coverage was reinstated because of the outcry that arose when the AMA tried to kill it off. However, member-to-family cover HAS been successfully killed off - i.e. the AMA is telling you NOT to bring your family to the flying field (unless all family members are members). Quite how telling the family to stay home counts as promoting model aviation to non members is quite beyond me though.

Not sure if your family are members matters or not.

This is from page 24 of the policy. Looks to me like members are excluded from personaly injury coverage from each other. But I really do not understand this type of documentation anyway.

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Old 01-11-2006, 09:25 PM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

Looks like I have failed to keep up with things. I have emailed DB, DH, & SF about this asking for an answer and to NOT push it off on a salaried employee merely doing what he/she is told to do. I promised no public forum until Saturday, however I do be a day late and a dollar short --AGAIN!!.

PLEASE, if you're going to the show in CA this weekend, then get some answers. DO NOT -- repeat -- DO NOT even consult with Maroney about this. Only D. Brown and D. Holland should receive the questions. Anyone else will simply be a waste of your time.

They will do everything in their power and whatever they can to redirect you to Maroney. No need to overload that circuit!! [:-]

Old 01-11-2006, 10:57 PM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

Late arriving information. Sender not to be identified, at this time, maybe never.

>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;
At any rate in insurance terminology "personal injury" refers to things like libel, slander, copyright infringement, etc., among other things. It does not refer to physical injury. While I don't remember the exact date, this exclusion was added to the policy sometime shortly after the Missouri incident and the incident in CA where a club member filed against his club and newsletter editor for comments made in one of the club's newsletters.<<<<<<<<<<<<&l t;

I do remember the Missouri incident very well. There was a fire in the facilities at a public field. Club blamed a certain few. Certain few collected handsomely for defamation of character, libel and slander.

Anyway give 'em a tough time at the show this weekend. Some good scaring doesn't have to be reserved for Halloween.
Old 01-12-2006, 12:13 AM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

Late arriving information. Sender not to be identified, at this time, maybe never.

>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;
At any rate in insurance terminology "personal injury" refers to things like libel, slander, copyright infringement, etc., among other things. It does not refer to physical injury. While I don't remember the exact date, this exclusion was added to the policy sometime shortly after the Missouri incident and the incident in CA where a club member filed against his club and newsletter editor for comments made in one of the club's newsletters.<<<<<<<<<<<<&l t;

I do remember the Missouri incident very well. There was a fire in the facilities at a public field. Club blamed a certain few. Certain few collected handsomely for defamation of character, libel and slander.

Anyway give 'em a tough time at the show this weekend. Some good scaring doesn't have to be reserved for Halloween.
Hey Hoss-

Do you have a lawyer you can trust (fat chance!) that can explain the difference between "personal injury" and "physical injury" to your body? For those AMA members that are counting on it, the question deserves more of an answer than twisting of words by legal weasels. Your respondent may be buying it - I'm not.......though if AMA's insurance guru endorses it publicly, on the record, and unambiguously (the fact that the exclusion does not apply to bodily injury to another AMA insured), I might, with due caution.

Abel
Old 01-12-2006, 12:48 AM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

http://www.abbottsystems.com/personalinjurylaw.html#P
Old 01-12-2006, 10:44 AM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

Troll, that is a great piece of law you found.
Thanks, Rich.[sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif]
No wonder the AMA wants a no sue clause. They are trying to please everyone a little, and failing everyone.
Every major spectator sport has suffered horrible accidents. What they did to increase public protection after the accident, is what seperates the good organizations from the useless.
And until we get people with enough backbone to change speeds , distances, out of control planes that have no real failsafe for the public, AMA is doomed.
Old 01-12-2006, 03:16 PM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

ORIGINAL: abel_pranger

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

Late arriving information. Sender not to be identified, at this time, maybe never.

>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;
At any rate in insurance terminology "personal injury" refers to things like libel, slander, copyright infringement, etc., among other things. It does not refer to physical injury. While I don't remember the exact date, this exclusion was added to the policy sometime shortly after the Missouri incident and the incident in CA where a club member filed against his club and newsletter editor for comments made in one of the club's newsletters.<<<<<<<<<<<<&l t;

I do remember the Missouri incident very well. There was a fire in the facilities at a public field. Club blamed a certain few. Certain few collected handsomely for defamation of character, libel and slander.

Anyway give 'em a tough time at the show this weekend. Some good scaring doesn't have to be reserved for Halloween.
Hey Hoss-

Do you have a lawyer you can trust (fat chance!) that can explain the difference between "personal injury" and "physical injury" to your body? For those AMA members that are counting on it, the question deserves more of an answer than twisting of words by legal weasels. Your respondent may be buying it - I'm not.......though if AMA's insurance guru endorses it publicly, on the record, and unambiguously (the fact that the exclusion does not apply to bodily injury to another AMA insured), I might, with due caution.

Abel
Abel I am learning more and finding more.

Got an answer from SF:

Sent a reply. Waiting to learn even more.

>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>
In a message dated 1/12/2006 2:46:18 AM Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes:
Please research the difference between:

Personal Injury

and

Property Damage

and

Bodily Injury

"""libel, slander, copyright infringement"""

Have not been within AMA Liability for a LONG TIME !

This is nothing new.
<<<<<<<<<<<<&l t;<<<<<<<<<<<< <
Sent to Sandy, DB, AMA

Perhaps some additional research on Yours and AMA's part is also required. In the law Personal Injury is NOT limited to the word-of-mouth harm. It also covers bodily injury.

The more I think about and research, I find one conclusion: You people are letting the Insurance Company screw you over and therefore the AMA membership is being defrauded because they trust you to do what you say you do, yet you are not performing as you say.

You just let poor Carl go his way, and IMO he just trys to get along. The greatest of persons, however as an Insurance person, I think of him as a number of military (government) people I knew along the way, that could move mountains of paperwork from desk to desk, office to office, and accomplish absolutely ZERO of anything of any importance.

For the small liability things AMA covers out of the self-insurance i.e. deduction. In a big one someone is going to be left holding the bag, and in the end it will be very likely the Officers of AMA because they failed to act within Par. 2 below.



FOR EXAMPLE:

17 Personal Injury
1. Introduction

2. What is a personal injury?

Any injury you suffer is of course 'personal', but you can claim compensation only if a person, company or some other organisation is at least partly to blame for your injuries. The person or organisation must have been careless about the way something was:

done;
not done, when it should have been; or
made or repaired.
The person or organisation that was careless ('negligent') may have to pay you compensation for your injuries.

A personal injury can happen, for example:

at work;
in a road accident;
because of a faulty product;
because of a mistake during medical treatment ; or
because you tripped on a paving stone or slipped on a wet floor in a shop.
An injury may be psychological as well as physical, so you may be able to get compensation for distress or upset after an accident as well as for the physical injury.

You may have been injured in an assault (attack) - see 'What if I am a victim of a crime?' for more about this.

What you should do first
If you have been hurt, you will first need to deal with the pain, shock and distress you may be feeling. After that, you may want to think about claiming compensation and getting practical, personal or financial support to deal with the injury and its after-effects.

//SNIP// (Just procedures for record keeping & reporting)


Horrace Cain

edited; wrong word.
Old 01-12-2006, 03:28 PM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

ORIGINAL: cyclops2

Troll, that is a great piece of law you found.
Thanks, Rich.[sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif]
No wonder the AMA wants a no sue clause. They are trying to please everyone a little, and failing everyone.
Every major spectator sport has suffered horrible accidents. What they did to increase public protection after the accident, is what seperates the good organizations from the useless.
And until we get people with enough backbone to change speeds , distances, out of control planes that have no real failsafe for the public, AMA is doomed.
Yeah.............but.

Plodding into the policy again, I find that it does separately use the terms "personal injury" and "bodily injury" and it is apparent, if not immediately crystal clear that they mean different things. Definitions of the 'special meanings' are provided in Section V, where "bodily injury" is found on P. 54 (but superced by another definition on p.38), but I didn't find "personal injury" unless it is included in "personal and advertising injury," which may include consequential "bodily injury," on page 56. Not common usage, but internally to the document it is consistent. Looks like whomever replied to Hoss knew what he was talking about. Keep him in mind, Hoss.

So............before you libel somebody make sure he isn't an AMA member, but if he is you're covered if you are an agent of AMA Inc. or if you hit him with a model airplane (but not with you fist, as that would be consequential to personal injury, I think) unless the cause of your hitting him was radio interference (Exclusion T on p.13). It's all perfectly clear now.

Abel
Old 01-12-2006, 04:59 PM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

Well easytiger, you are wrong again with me. Last time you called me a "drug user".
This time "I can not get RC collision and lawsuit insurance".
For $32 a YEAR more, I will have $1,000,000 of full coverage for hitting a person or property accidently with my model airplane.
It is ALL PRIMARY COVERAGE. No begging 3 rd rate insurers to MAYBE cover my problems.
--------When are you actually going to learn something before lashing out at people and topics you know nothing about
A apology would be a start.
-
So Cal Glider guy, Thanks a million for waking me up to do the right thing. [sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif]
Old 01-12-2006, 05:21 PM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

To all members of the Forum.
WAAAAAAAAAAA!!
I blindly believed the, "Modelers looking out for modelers". I thought that was the AMA pure and simple.
Somebody said there is NO Toothfairy ??
Always left me a $.25 or $.50 [sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif]
Old 01-12-2006, 09:53 PM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

ORIGINAL: cyclops2

Well easytiger, you are wrong again with me. Last time you called me a "drug user".
This time "I can not get RC collision and lawsuit insurance".
For $32 a YEAR more, I will have $1,000,000 of full coverage for hitting a person or property accidently with my model airplane.
It is ALL PRIMARY COVERAGE. No begging 3 rd rate insurers to MAYBE cover my problems.
--------When are you actually going to learn something before lashing out at people and topics you know nothing about
A apology would be a start.
-
So Cal Glider guy, Thanks a million for waking me up to do the right thing. [sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif]
cyclops2-

Primary coverage doesn't really mean all that much to the insured, though it does mean $$ to the insurance providers. Reason is a thing called "subrogation." If more than one insurer covers the same risk and one of them pays the claim, they will seek (and usually obtain) a share of the compensation from the other insurer(s). The AMA (Westchester) policy includes a formula for how it will subrogate claims (see Condition 4, Other Insurance, Amended on page 24 of the policy posted on the AMA web site). It mattered to me as I have properties in a locale where HO providers would just as soon not do business, and since I didn't want to kick the sleeping dog, I looked for primary coverage of my model airplane and other recreational activities from another provider. Turns out it wouldn't matter - if the insurer of my rec activities paid a claim, they would go after my HO providers for a share of the payout. AMA makes a big deal out of the insurance for the landowner being primary and IIRC says a claim won't impact other insurance he may have, but I haven't figured out how that is possible.

I see the big advantage you have in return for $32/year is being able to get a grasp on what you are actually buying. If it's anything like the umbrella policy I have, it has few exclusions (for mine, it is one exclusion - no human passengers), and is self-contained regarding the terms. What I find very little to like about the AMA insurance is the number of conditions and exclusions (A. thru W., plus several addenda), the exclusions added as means of bypassing the EC in making AMA policy (recent request to Westchester to change policy to exclude "UAVs" from coverage so as to outlaw autonomous control of model aircraft), and references to other, sometimes arcane, sources for excluded activities (Exclusion R. "Bodily injury" or "property damage" arising from use of equipment that has been ruled obsolete by FCC). Do you have a list of R/C equipment that FCC has ruled obsolete? I don't.

Dang that's a more long-winded rant than I intended. I'll end with agreement that you have bought a good deal in terms of "peace of mind" for your 32 bucks.

Abel


Old 01-12-2006, 10:14 PM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

I've written prolly a thousand contracts in my life and I don't recall ever creating one without a hold harmless or indemnification clause. Nor do I believe I've ever received a contract without a hold harmless or indemnification clause. Heck many states have laws that you can't even sue your own employer unless a third party is involved.

This is the same thing. They are basically saying, "we'll insure you and we'll do a good job, but you can't ever sue us for anything".

That's practically boiler plate for the entire business world and the AMA is a business.
Old 01-13-2006, 12:17 AM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER


Get it on paper. Put your money where you mouth is. Go call up your "very experienced insurance agent" tomorrow and tell him you want it specifically stated. Take a photo of said document and post it here.
I do not have to see it on paper, I have seen it happen. Was out flying at one of our local fields and Two guys were on the same frequency. One guy gets done flying and lets the other one
know, so he goes flying. While he is flying the other guy forgets about it and turns on his radio and raises his antenna. Well a $5,000 dollar airplane became a scrap lumber pile.
The gentelman who shot the airplane down got a hold of his insurance company and they paid the claim on the airplane without a problem.
John
Old 01-13-2006, 12:17 AM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

If we honestly thought The AMA was doing a reasonable job, this topic would have dropped dead in 5 threads of it.
They are not doing what the membership has entrusted them to do.
The more people look into this, the worse it looks.
Old 01-13-2006, 12:21 AM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

ORIGINAL: jgraham10

ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER


Get it on paper. Put your money where you mouth is. Go call up your "very experienced insurance agent" tomorrow and tell him you want it specifically stated. Take a photo of said document and post it here.
I do not have to see it on paper, I have seen it happen. Was out flying at one of our local fields and Two guys were on the same frequency. One guy gets done flying and lets the other one
know, so he goes flying. While he is flying the other guy forgets about it and turns on his radio and raises his antenna. Well a $5,000 dollar airplane became a scrap lumber pile.
The gentelman who shot the airplane down got a hold of his insurance company and they paid the claim on the airplane without a problem.
John
What on earth are you talking about? Who CARES about a $5000 model? It's PEANUTS. AMA does not cover the loss of somebody's model if you shoot them down...
What we are talking about is when someone gets hit in the head by an airplane and needs $1m in medical attention. Or is dead. THAT is what you need insurance for.

Old 01-13-2006, 12:26 AM
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Default RE: Renewal: Waive right to sue AMA?

ORIGINAL: cyclops2

If we honestly thought The AMA was doing a reasonable job, this topic would have dropped dead in 5 threads of it.
They are not doing what the membership has entrusted them to do.
The more people look into this, the worse it looks.
I tried to tell you this before. You are still not listening.
You are just getting back into the hobby, right? You don't REALLY know the lay of the land.
You can always find this same dozen or so people hanging around on the internet complaing about how awful the AMA is. It's a CROCK.
It's the same-old-same-old. Everything is some damn conspiracy.
If you believed what was written on the internet, Dave Brown would not be President. Horrace Cain would be. Because it sure LOOKED like he was going to win, from reading internet posts here.
But he lost by a landslide. Figure that out.
Maybe you are being led up the garden path here. Whatever people are jawing about most of the internet, you can bet good money that the AMA constutuency at large feels something COMPLETELY different, and they just don't want to post. The votes keep proving that.

Anyway...don't believe everything you read on the internet. Go build something instead!
That's the best advice I can give you.

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