They do? What control do they have? They have 0 control over this hobby, that's just a perception. I thought our wives had control over how much we can be involved in this hobby? If anyone has control over this hobby it's the FAA as they regulate all airspace from the ground up.

That's because the AMA is a backup for the people that don't have insurance and it's priced accordingly. Where on earth do you find 2.5M liability insurance for $60 a year??? If they didn't have the backup insurance plan, do you think the rates would still be $60? What if you or your car got hit by a plane by a 19 year old kid living in an apartment who had $160 in his checking account, no insurance on anything, BUT he had an AMA card? Don't you feel a little better about flying at a club that has this kind of protection? Do you think you may have 1 or 2 kids like this at your field???? Pretty much every field does. Heck at some fields people with homeowners and renters is a minority.

Can you imagine flying at RC fields with no guidance (not control) from the AMA and no insurance? The club board members and their members would literally be at war with each other fighting over the way the club should run. Not only that, do you think the FAA would allow uncontrolled RC flying with no "standards" of operations? Let's say that number of AMA fields went from 98% to 90% to 80% to 70% and so on, what do you think the FAA would do? They would jump right in and start setting the rules and guidelines, only they wouldn't be guidelines, they would be LAWS and instead of being kicked out of a club for doing something stupid, you could find your way into some serious federal fines and jail time.

Does anyone in this forum ever think outside the box?

All of you guys who think your homeowner's insurance will cover a radio control accident better check again. Most times, it won't cover, or a special (extra $) rider is required.

Dr.1

And the ONLY personal coverage that one AMA member hit by another AMA member has is the $25,000 medical. There is no liability coverage between members. NO $2.5 million. So better have some decent personal liability coverage (most do cover the hobby by the way regardless of the prior scare tactic remarks). Since this is more or less a public forum for AMA related 'discussions' (I use that word loosely) this IS the right place to be critical of a declining national organization. Hate? No. However it is difficult to ingore the smell of the putrid decay coming from Muncie. It's picked up by every self centered, self righteous pain in the rear power flyer and spread across the continent.

Not when you have to join the private club AMA to fly on County Regional Park land, with no provisions to post a bond or outside insurance. Club got park, club requires AMA, County wants insurance and bought the AMA hype about making sure everyone is insured without considering the monopoly on insurers. Why do we need $40-50k insurance to drive, including a 24' Uhaul towing a car, in case we hit someone/something, but $millions to fly a RC plane? That kind of control may be what he's saying.

So a local club would have all kinds of controversy within its members & leadership.... but some reason there is no controversy when you add a few hundred thousand more people? 20 guys cannot survive with all the conflicting opinions & methods, but the same guys have no differences if there are more people involved?

If local Jim is opposed to local Bob's way to run the club, and they charter up with AMA. Turns out local Bob is using the ama method, how does Jim all of a sudden not be opposed to it anymore? Or is his opinion verboten by bylaws, or discounted as a dissident poster and ignored in the AMA Happyworld

I CAN Imagine a flying place without ama control- well, its more of a reality than imagination: I was in a group of StreetFlyers & that is just what you said, nonAMA ruled or insured. .. no tech checks, no impound/pins, no freq board.... no waiting to fly, no fees, no hassles. Sure the cops sometimes would tell us they were going to use the street and we had to wait 45mins till the cops said it was ok for us to fly... but cops need streets too, and streetflyers are a sharing bunch.

How many millions insurance do you need for 103 ultralights in classG or 700'E space where any unlicensed fool can get up? The feds are hands off management regarding ultralights. Everyone should spend a whole 10mins and read part103 of the fed laws in entirity- all 6 or 8 pages. I dont think the FAA is gonna jump in anytime soon, the FCC will grab up our freqs for some new WIFI they can get $mil Telecom fees long before the FAA has a problem. The one to watch out for is the ATF... er, the BATF... oops, I mean the BATF&E... watch, soon it will be the BATFE&RC, they are grabbin everything, darn revenuers comin on our land

Was the OP talking Internal Controversy, or controversy About the AMA between members & non-members? Cause I can get along fine with most of ya'll AMAers talkin about servos or wing aspect & flaps, but when the AMA comes up in conversation it's the Hatfields & McCoys. Is that not a controversial subject?

Maybe in Texas, but what about everywhere else? Remember there are 49 other states in the US that are much more condensed in population then Texas. Most my neighbors can't walk out back and see 300 miles of clear land.

WOW 6-8 pages and the AMA rules are what like 1/2 of 1 page? Also there are lots of restrictions for ultra lights that are not only found in part 103, there are still many general aviation restrictions in the rest of the FAR. The FAR does not state "do whatever you want in class G&E UL pilots, it's all yours to screw up". I mean the most obvious rule to 103 states: No person may operate any ultralight vehicle in a manner that creates a hazard to other persons or property. That's a pretty generalized rule which can mean A LOT of things.

Don't forget when you hop into an ultra light you are putting your own life in your hand and potentially others on the ground so typically not too many people are going to just be able to jump in and fly or else they may just barely clear the runway without splatting their plane into the ground. You're typical UL pilot has more knowledge in aviation then some 15 year old kid that got his flight training by a guy behind a counter at his local hobby shop.

I would like to see this "utopian" uncotrolled uninsured RC field where some young stud walks up with a never flown $3k whirlybird with CF blades and plows his heli into a crowd because you think the AMA is too controlling. That would sure be an interesting field. Why do you think that public parks need insurance and want to work with companies like the AMA?? Because they not only insure, they set guidelines and they've been doing it for many years.

KidEpoxy,

The AMA is a good organization, the complaints are purely liberal in idea. People just want more for their buck.(or whatever the dues are[58 I think]) The complaints all come down to what the AMA wants to promise for votes to stay in office, but aren't delivering what many of us in this forum want. However, you must have a sweet setup there in Texas. I wish I could fly without needing my AMA card, but in Virginia, that would be completely stupid.(I fly right near a major road reight on the edge of a city) So, for those of us who do need an AMA card to fly, would you please refrain from your gloating about your ability to fly without the AMA.


thanks,
50%

Not refering to Big Texas flying, but heart of the Silicon Valley in San Jose / Milpitas, California... ya'll heard a thing or two about the crazy laws restricting everything under the sun in California? yeah, that place. We get 3 cities' cops, sherrif, and HiwayPatrol driving around. And I'm sure ya'll also heard of california having a lawsuit or two filed each year. Heck, they even put smog laws on the kids scooters, threatening the japanese company that makes them if they ship another to CA. You can stand around a Fire Pit drinking beer, but only if there is food to cook, otherwise it is an Illegal Warming Fire rather than a Legal Cooking Fire according to Los Angeles AQMD smoglaws. The firemen told us to have a pack of hotdogs handy next time they show up, some nice folk.

So don't worry, I'm not gloating about Big Texas, I'm co-miserating about Bay Area California Orwellian overwatch and flying there.

50%- So what you say at the end of your post kinda demonstrates the monopoly / control idea. You HAVE TO have AMA to fly, where is your choice of insurers? Your choice of instruction source, or just who made them the only place that can say "Yes, he knows how to fly"

wow, that sounds kinda horrible. People getting hurt aint the kind of thing one should like to see. But then, without that kind of thinking there would be no GawkerBlocks on the opposite side of the freeway from the accident. Oh well, Society- what ya gonna do. You think what you like and I'll think what I like and everybody will be happy.

Virgina has plenty of places to do things. I recall going out and shooting some clays & cans just up against some hillside when visiting some old army pals in Virginia (I called it East By-God Virginia). I know RC flying aint safe like shooting 45s, but you just gotta get out to god's green acres more.

Anyhoo, I'm gonna see what the OP has to say about where he wants the thread to go, Internal AMA issues or overall AMA talk, cause we're getting into Is Not - Is Too, and nobody enjoys that

Ya'll keep your powder dry
KE

There's a lot more than 1/2 page of rules... try browsing through the various docs at http://www.modelaircraft.org/acrobat.asp

Gordon

Actually, on the other side of this city, Janet Reno(remember her) has a house and on another, Dick Cheney(Current VP) has 3 houses being built. So, in order to fly where I currently fly, I would think it advisable to have AMA. There are NO other alternatives here. If there was, AMA might be better, but that isn't what this is all about. As far as California, what can I say. Ya'll have two types of laws there. Half are for it, half are against it.


50%

Some people just don't get it. One day at one of these uncontrolled, no rules, no insurance field someones going to do something stupid and hurt someone important. In a time where out of control planes can do big damage, it's going to make the FAA do some thinking about how we are allowed to fly our RC airplanes in their airspace.

The AMA is not a monopoly and if you think that you don't know what the word monopoly means, you're just throwing it out in a sentence. Anybody can start their own AMA organization if they want too. Anyone can start their own insurance company for RC fliers too.

And a plane can't go out of control at a AMA field or a AMA member can't do something stupid? The AMA is the " only game in town" remember Sport Flyers? The AMA wasn't real happy about someone else playing in the sandbox with them. They threaten to pull our Charter because we tried to have both organizations representing ourselves to the site owner. The Sport Flyers program was your primary insurance not secondary like the AMA. I for one was sorry to see them go. Yes I'm a AMA member and yes I vote in every election. My complaint is it seems like the AMA just does not get the message that the membership is not happy with the present course of the AMA. We have a right to demand answers and question how things are done. After all it is our money. Mike

Of course it can, but a field with rules and insurance is going to have a longer shelf life and be much safer. Do you guys do realize that the FAA does recognize the AMA and does work with them to make sure our flying experience does not interfere with their flying? I said before if the AMA fields drop below a certain number to where they are unrestricted the FAA is GOING to come in and do something about it. Luckily I don't think we'll have to worry about it because there are enough intelligent people that realize you must have an organization like the AMA then ones that do not. The whiners are always a minority while the non whiners are just out having a good time.

Do you have the same right with your car insurance company? How about the Microsoft operating system you're using right now? You paid for it right, you think it belongs to you??? NOPE. The AMA does not issue stock certificates, it's a privately held company, not yours. If you don't like their rules then don't buy it.

Give me a break. Are you trying to tell me I don't have the right to ask and demand answers from a oganization that I pay dues too? If not than why have elections? I have that right and so does every other member. I'm sure glad your not speaking for the AMA or are you? As far as "rules" protecting us from a "problem" any time any place something bad can happen. (unless you have a "special rule" that the rest of us don't know about). We take a risk every time we go out to fly. Like it or not. The AMA is not the all powerfull OZ you seem to give them credit for. If the FAA or any other goverment agency wants us gone were toast. I feel they could do alot more to become member freindly. Mike

You do not have the right to demand answers, this is a privliage which they could take away at anytime if they wanted too. Just because you pay does not mean you own any part of.

actually, if they, the ama, wishes to retain it's curent 501***status, we, the members do have the right to demand answers to where the funds are going.

Great, so we should just lay down and let them do as they please i.e. the Muncie site. Did they contact anyone before that purchase? Look I see this is getting us nowhere as always some will never see the other side. How are things on Long Island. I was born in Hicksville and lived in Levittown till drafted. Only go back to vist family. Once out here in Texas and seeing all this open space I kinda liked it. Hope ypur luck holds. Mike

Sounds to me like we're not the ones misunderstanding what a monopoly means - per your definition, nothing would ever be a monopoly - you could theoretically start your own phone company, your own electric & gas provider, airline, etc., etc. The enforced breakup of the telephone companies etc shows that the legal definition of monopoly doesn't match yours.

Per http://www.tutor2u.net/economics/gcs...s_monopoly.htm : Monopoly is a situation in which the market is dominated by one seller or producer. By law a monopoly occurs if a firm has a market share of 25%.

Per http://business-law.freeadvice.com/t...poly_power.htm : Today, a general definition of a monopoly is where nearly all of one product type or service is owned by one person or group of people within a community or area.

Monopoly doesn't mean that it's absolutely impossible for someone to start up a competing company or organization - it just means a company or org has a dominant position. Furthermore, there are classes of monopolies - pure, natural, etc.

Gordon

Yep, we the members and every taxpayer that subsidizes AMA for the amount of taxes they are exempted from paying. Of course if they were not 501***, they wouldn't be forced to force a magazine on us. Wonder what would be the cost of dues if AMA paid taxes and we didn't have to subsidize the magazine or pay other costs associated with maintaining the tax exemption. Ostensibly they don't make a profit, so what would they pay taxes on, anyway? I don't pay income tax on investment property until income exceeds expenses - is it different for a company like AMA? Maybe Hoss knows this stuff...........

Abel

As we learned last time in this forum, STL should provide his definition of, in this case, monopoly.
Yes, and we know where the money goes, we just don't control how it's spent.(well, we do, it's called voting for those who don't know)


50%

"The membership is not happy with the present course of AMA"?
I guess I missed that membership vote, or poll, where it was determined that "The Membership" is not happy with the present course of the AMA!
With a membership of approximately 160,000, apparently I'm one of a very small minority of members, who naively happen to believe that the Academy is being reasonably well run.
When is the "March of Muncie" by "The Membership" scheduled to begin, and where from?

Well I guess your one of the "Happy One's" . Not all of the membership takes the time to view or respond on this site. I based my comment on this site and opions expressed at the field. Would you care to explain the low voter turn out in the elections and the decline in membership? Mike

You forgot to add the remainder and most important piece of your definition of monopoly. THERE MUST BE A BARRIER.

Simple: A situation in which a single company owns all or nearly all of the market for a given type of product or service. This would happen in the case that there is a barrier to entry into the industry that allows the single company to operate without competition i.e. government regulation.

Walmart is not a monopoly, Microsoft is not a monoply, Anheuser Busch is not a monopoly and the AMA is not a monopoly, they are market leaders, a big difference. A monopoly is when you have actual control over these markets to knock out your competition with methods other then just your market presence.

What the heck are you talking about? You're not a stockholder in the AMA, they don't have too report a single thing to you if they don't want too. You guys are making much more out of a NFP then it really is. NFP's are not even allowed to offer stocks to anyone for any reason, thus they don't have to show you a darn thing. You are a member of a club, same exact thing as AAA, not an owner of their company. There is a huge difference. Try DEMANDING AAA to answer any question you have for them.

The entertainment factor just jumped off the scale. Keep it up. I'm loving it.

It's entertaining and typical. Most market dominating companies have people that love to hate them. How many people hate Microsoft, but everyone has their system. How many people can't stand Walmart's business ethics, but love to shop and save money with their prices. This is the exact same thing we have here only it's the AMA. I wonder when Dave Brown is going to get his pie in the face like the rest of the love to haters like Bill Gates.