Stickbuilder

It will work, if we all work on it, and at it rather than throwing in the towell and saying it won't work.

You have to want it to work, and by working together, we can all ensure that it will. I think that there are as many (if not more) non AMA members that do not want it to work as there are AMA members that do not want to see it work.

Why quit when we are beginning to open up a dialog between the opposing camps? We can still argue in this forum, but it will then be a family argument.

Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

Ok, I'm back. My view point is the AMA is it's members, and what the members do, reflects and represents what others see the AMA being. Pretty much the same story for any major organization. When the current AMA membership comes to see the outlaw fliers as someone who will benefit and add to the clubs and the AMA, I think it will be a major turning point.
From what I read and personal experiences, I see two problems. #1 is how the E fliers are looked at as a problem to the rest of the groups. #2 Getting the Efliers back into the fold, now that they've feel they've been slighted, and for what reason should they go over to the other side.

So maybe we should look at these first instead of working on the E card.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about.
I copied and pasted this from the Park Flyers section. This is a new E flyer I've been coaching from 1300 miles away. After the general chit chat, I told him to seek out the local club in the area, something I was familure with as I lived there a while back.
Couple of days ago he was all excited about a flyer at the club field going to take the time to give him some help and pointers.

Now here's his story of what happened when he showed up.

"so i didnt get to fly today.. too much wind.. went out to the airfield today and seen a couple planes.. seen the guy out there that i was supposed to meet up with but he was with his student so i didnt interrupt him.. i did however go stand by his group while they were out there... but when he was done with his student, he packed up and went home.. didnt even say hi, although im positive he recognized me. oh well.. guess thats not a very friendly field.. guess i will have to find another one" end quote

Now let's not all get going on what did and could have happened, and the other side of the story might be. But look at it through this fliers eyes.
No, since I have no idea if this was an AMA field, I can't point a finger at the AMA. But if in fact this is how it happened, I can point the finger at the hobby/ people who make up the hobby.

These are the kinds of things ALL need to correct. That one person you turned away could have been the next Jason S, or Nick Z, who's to say. Let's make an effort to not look at the bird, but look at the person who comes up to you and your field and your AMA.
Rather then telling them to get lost and then complaining that they are shooting you down from the park next to your field, grab them and show them some friendship. Take them in and then if need be show them the right way to do things. It's going to be easier then, vs trying to wrangle them up after they scattered.

TerryE

My Feedback: (12)

This is exactly the reason I don't want anything to do with the AMA, or organized clubs. I have been in the hobby since 1983 when I worked at (then managed) a hobby shop. Flew RC gassers for 10+ years (including designing and building my own stick-builds), and ended with RC helis (Kavan jet ranger with OS Max 60).

Then time moved on.. got out of RC and stayed out for many years (kept the planes, though). Got back into the hobby about 3 years ago with an electric RTF [X(] (Badius). Flew the snot out of it (and still do). Moved on to other electric planes (Ultimate bipe, Cub, etc). Flew out of my back yard.

Started to really get into it again, until I went to the local AMA Club field with one of my electrics... boy did I get a rude awakening! The club was elitist, anti-electric and told me to "take my toy and go home" (yes, I'm the one NY was talking about). So I did.

Left a sour tast for the AMAand the local club. Now I come to this forum and see posts like the one above... not "I like to help new people and introduce them into the sport so we can all fly safely", but "grow some thick hide" [:'(]

Just confirms my opinion. So I will fly from my backyard. Planes are electric so no noise or neighbor complaints (actually a lot come out to watch and recently I got one involved enough to fly with me).

So, my point: Keep your dwindling membership elitist gasser club - I don't need you.

Once your membership hits 10,000 total maybe you will realize that you need me.

50%plane

My Feedback: (5)

Yea? I want it to work, but I'm looking at the realistic side of things. Lets say that park pilot wants to fly a glow powered plane. Would he have to go to a special field? Under this proposal, yes. Would he have to get yet another membership with the AMA? In this case, yes.


If you start with the Tiers, you will end up discriminating against people. Lets say that the AMA wants to do a tier for jets. How about planes worth over $3000? What about helicopters? Where would it get anyone? It would be a lot of hassels. It would also mean that our dollars would be spent on even more paperwork. Who would regulate any of it? If you don't think that this is a valid observation, look at out tax laws.


50%

Stickbuilder

To: Terry and Christopher,


Terry, That post should have been taken in it's entirety. The point that I was trying to make was that it is a people problem, and that you won't change the nature of humans. I want this thing to work, and I have never turned away someone who asks for assistance. I have been operating a post in the ARF
forum to do that very thing, and I do not like ARF's as a whole. I do, however, understand that not everyone has the skills or the time to devote to a scale stick built model. I want to see this hobby continue to grow and to prosper. Thus the reason for offering to assist the new guys that are getting into this hobby that we have in common. I am getting old, and would like to pass along what I have learned over the last 50 something years of building model airplanes. At any rate I repeat, It is not a problem with the AMA. It is a problem with the people with whom you come in contact. Come and see me, and you will come away with a different perspective. I think that if you were to visit our club field, you would also feel welcome. We have members flying everything from 44% IMAC birds to foamies. You will find everything in between there as well. You will also find people geared toward helping each other.

Christopher, I think that the reason that the tiered program was suggested was to appeal to the guy that is just getting into this hobby, and that with a park flyer model that only cost less than two hundred bucks, the AMA would not hit him with the full amount, but would allow him to be covered by the insurance policy. The second part of the proposal was to enable the P/F crowd to form their own clubs especially in urban area's and enable them to participate in a part of the AMA that otherwise they might not learn to enjoy. If that P/F owner later wanted to move into the category that the rest of us (gas electric glow) use, then they would be able to upgrade at that time. Perhaps I misread the information, but that is the way I understood the proposal. I still do not see where that this idea would make someone who only flies P/F airplanes a second class member, but would offer a membership in a specific category. Try to compare this idea with the licensing of full scale aircraft. They start with a Student license, move to a private ticket, get endorsements for things such as aerobatics, High performance etc, move to commercial, and on to type ratings. We already do this with things such as the 55 pound waiver, and turbine waivers. I do not have the turbine waiver, yet I do not feel a second class member.

Both of you, please look at this proposal in the manner that I have just outlined. Tell me the problem/s that you see with what I have pointed out, or with the way I see things. Please keep an open mind. These proposals are and were just that. There is room to fine tune these ideas and make them workable for the majority of us all. There will always be a few people that do not want anything new to succeed. I refuse to be one of them.

Bill, AMA 4720

afineman

Hey all

I went back and edited my post of last night, I did this because I used a structure meant to inflame.

Where this thread has not dissolved into a shouting match (yet), and if we can keep it that way, we may actually be able to better understand each other and ( dare I say it) find common ground.

This is like the Arab/Israeli conflict it has been going on for years, heels are dug in and to agree with the other side show disloyalty to one’s own group.

For the most part, every major point said here is correct (on both sides), I believe we have very few opportunities left to try to resolve this.

I participate in the Electric side where most are of the park flier way of flying. On thing I can say is the number of first time posters is much larger this year than last year, and that can only mean 1 thing.

Lets all jump on one of these final opportunities and see if we can get above the bickering and find some common ground we can ALL live with.

Just a thought

Brent

Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

50%,
Ditto on the tier program, that's exactly one of the points that were made about the E card.
I really think that maybe the E card is a lot of wishful thinking. If it would work it would be a good way to get the membership up. But what's the old saying"once bitten, twice shy?"
Joining the AMA after thinking about it, should be a standard rate for standard membership.
Then if you want to go to something more then the standard, you pay an additional fee on top of the standard fee. Now clubs could be different with a tiered program.
Giving a discount fee is in a way a possibility of drawing in those on the fence, who might look at the initial cost. But for those that have been into electrics for a while really would show little interest in it due to the proposed info provided.

What really needs done is getting peoples attitudes to change.
Look we've proved we could get along civilly, just here on this forum.
Why can't we do this with those that make up both sides of this issue?

Like it was stated earlier the AMA is it's members. And at least in some flier's eyes, the clubs and their members are the AMA. So maybe instead of making a special card to try and lasso in the the ones who've gotten away, maybe we should look at ways to make the clubs more attractive to the electric fliers, and make the electric fliers more attractive to the clubs.

Now I understand that thing about clubs being individual, privately owned groups, and the AMA supposedly has no real authority over them. Well if the clubs can't or won't take on new members, yet also complain about the problem with the E fliers, I see that as a contributing factor to the E fliers not belonging to the AMA.
Telling someone to go away, whether intentional or not, then complaining about them not doing things your way, kinda doesn't make a lot of sense.

Maybe the AMA, (members and the officials), need to put their heads together, and say look, whether we created this problem with the club fields or not, the club fields are representing the AMA to the non members. Maybe it's time we look at the E fliers not as some pain in the butt group, but what could be a good addition to the club.

If the clubs, at least the bunch that have been turning down the E fliers, would get on the band wagon with the obviously more progressive clubs who've looked to the future, many of these so called problems would have gone away.

And if the bird requires different types of areas for flying, I like the idea of separating the field up to accommodate all. Just cause they are different, doesn't mean they can't learn to share. More people joining the clubs looks like it would be a win win situation for a lot of them, more members means more money and more folks to help out.
And hey if you are making special changes to accommodate a new group of fliers, I don't see anything wrong with making them take care of what ever special is need to accommodate them.

Stickbuilder

You have got it !!!!!! Don't turn it loose. Let's get more people on this band wagon. We can make it work.

Bill AMA 4720

Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

Were you talking to me?

50%plane

My Feedback: (5)

Maybe it will work. It could be just me scared of tiers.(eek!)As I'm writing this, I'm working a system where I'm kindda treated as a second class citizen.(tier2 as opposed to tier1) It really stinks sometimes and I don't want any person who just wants to fly their model airplane to be treated any lesser than someone who flys something different.


50%

TerryE

My Feedback: (12)

Stickbuilder:

My main problems with the e-card are:

1) e-flyers not allowed to fly at regular AMA club fields. If we cant go there to fly, how will we hook up with people like you who will help us, and help us advance to more complex projects (like stick building a plane) regardless of how it is powered?

2) A 200 foot ceiling. It is unenforceable and sends the message that e-fliers are not "good enough" to fly over that.

3) A potential perception by the "regular" members thate-fliers are second class... remember, we are fighting a perception issue now, how much worse will it be with a "restricted" licence?

There are my thoughts.... what do you think?

TE

Stickbuilder

Glacier Girl... Yep I was talking to you. I think you hit the nail on the head.

50% I understand how you feel, but as I said earlier, this is in the idea stage. Now is the time to get all the reservations that both sides have out in the open, and continue to work things out.

Terry, I am not sure that the heirarchy at AMA H.Q. have any better understanding of the capabilities of the P/F models than do I.
as to the perception issue, you will just have to prove them wrong won't you. Do not take this as a flame, but if you do go to a club field, please don't go with a, "Chip on your shoulder" Maybe that is a poor choice of words, but if you go expecting to have a problem, you just might find one. Again, prove them wrong. Have all your ***t in one sock when you go. Be a pro, and make them the one left scratching their heads. I know that you guys can fly rings around most of we olde phartes, so again be a pro, and you just might find the old guys wondering how you do that, and come around to asking you for some advice. If you think you are second class, you will be second class. Prove them wrong. I know that you guys can do it.

Bill, AMA 4720

afineman

OK

One last post and I go away. Everyone has an option about the other, everyone has no problem picking the faults of the other.

Everyone states what the other needs to do to be accepted, I suggest we all take a long hard look in the mirror, as I did this morning (the reason for editing my post). I will take my heels out of the sand and offer a few suggestions. AND yes to get together it will mean change for everyone.

Acceptance: that means, those club officials sit on those people who can’t get along. That means that GUY every club has who pi$$&$ off everyone has to be dealt with. If you lose 1 or 2 of the hardliners to make us feel welcome so be it, just remember it is them who has put us here in the first place (as I am sure you are sick and tired of hearing).

Equal Access: That means the guy with that 17 oz Slow Stick has just as much rite to be in the air as the guy with the 33% Yak waiting for his pin.

Dedicated days and or time for each: for example, Saturday is for IC only and Sunday is for electric only, the clubs would get good PR and get to tell their neighbor they decided to make Sunday electric only because it drastically reduces noise. Some mornings are for electric only and some are for IC only, etc, etc, etc.

1 dollar value for the true “park flier� and 1 for all others, Park flier is classified by weight only and I don’t have one that exceeds the 2 pound limit, but I do have 1 that goes faster that 60, and a 28 oz Super Slow Stick with a 7 foot wing span. Also there could be dedicated events for the 2 weight groups that means the other is excluded.

The first 3 are strictly a club thing and the last is an AMA thing. I believe the AMA is flexible enough to accommodate this, but are the clubs? And that is the $64,000 question.

The AMA may come up with a very attractive offer but if the clubs get to independently implement the recommendations then we may be back to square #1.

In conclusion, little Johnny will get that 72 Mhz E-Flight heli, and he will probably get ALL of his information from the internet, and unless little Johnny is told by his online peers, go down to club XYZ and they’ll help you (something he is not told today).

He’ll power it up in his back yard, 1/8 mile from your club, complain to his father it was jumping all around not realizing he and a p-38 pilot at that club just shot each other down.

Later All

Brent

Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

Stickbuilder and Hollywood,
You both make excellent points. It is the people we need to contend with, fix them and the other problems will fall in line.

So how do we fix the problem?
I see at as we give the clubs/AMA a second chance to see who we are.
And 2, get the clubs that actually have some progressive minds, to start the trend of accepting E flyers.
Yes I understand not all will fall in line,but if we sit around and talk about it and don't attempt to actually try something, we might as well be the congress.

If the clubs can be show that E flyers are more then boys and their toys, I think more will follow suit, and also with a growing membership of E flyers in the AMA, maybe we can put a little more muscle in promoting the acceptance of E flyers.
Could you imagine a pro electric AMA, adressing a non electric AMA club?
Hee Hee Hee

Stickbuilder

How about the AMA addressing all its membership. You electric types:.....sheesh. you've completely shut out the rubber flyers and the glider types....(just kidding). What has been accomplished here is that several people have come to a agreement (armed and wary, but basically agreeable) If we can accomplish that in this forum, and we always have the gloves off in here, just think what can be accomplished in a different venue. Let's all start promoting the idea. I will get in touch with my DVP and see what can be done to get the ball rolling.

Bet on one thing, The executive committee probably has been watching this forum, and already knows what has been being discussed. If they are smart, something should already be in the works. Let's all hope so. Let's keep this thread open and alive.

Bill, AMA 4720

Loubud

Stickbuilder Bill,
Hang on. This will take a long time just on the thread. But, we are getting along and even tossing a joke in.
Perfect. But patience is needed. Rushing may just lead to something regretfull.

Stickbuilder

Of course, you may be right, but at least the dialog is open, and that is more that was present at this time last week. Maybe the right term is Detente` Okay, I'm in, let's get others involved, come up with a plan and present it to the E.C.

Where is Horrace when you really need him?

Loubud

LOL. Horace only has a good idea once a month but I have seen him post some real good ones.

Stickbuilder

Lou,

You know that there are a lot more gassers that feel as I do. The only problem is that they are not the vocal minority. If you will notice, the one's that are negative about everything are actually fairly few in number, but they are negative and very vocal about everything, therefore, you get to hear from them a lot.

Now, if you can get me to start getting along with the ARF'ers, you would really be doing something. My planes are bigger, better, and I fly real model airplanes that I actually build, and not some toy made in Vietnam, and assembled by wannabe's. Sounds kinda dumb does it not?

Bill, AMA 4720

Loubud

Geez Bill, ya almost got me going for a moment. I fly ARF's because I'm ill and can't build just anything. I did build a kit heli. Was supposed to be a 15 to 20 hour build for rookies and it took me 3 months. So it's ARF's for me. The Guillows doesn't really count as I did a poor job but when I figure out how to cover it, you'll see a full RC conversion. Flaps and all.
ARF buyers have their own reasons for buying them and the quality is far greater today than it was just a couple of years ago. That Corsair I just got is assembled magnificently.
And not only as some of my planes bigger and faster than yours, they're pretty.
Tee hee

the-plumber

I had the audacity to actually believe that when afineman wrote CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, he meant it. Inasmuch as the numbers written by afineman were wrong, I presumed to supply the correct numbers.

afineman also posed a question about the likely response to his town council's reaction to a hypothetical presentation. I supplied a hypothetical answer which is based in fact, having MADE a number of those same presentations to city and county jurisdictions on behalf of AMA Chartered Clubs which were seeking the use of closed land fills (but not former EPA Superfund sites, which I believed was included in the hypothetical question posed by afineman).

I can tell you for a fact that the eyebrows on city and county parks and recreation departmental governing bodies fly WAY back over the tops of their heads when either the club or I get to the part where the AMA will furnish primary liability insurance to that municipality >at no cost whatsoever to them<.

Take my word for it, that little tidbit carries an awful lot of weight in the deliberations of those governing bodies : more than one member of such a governing body has so stated.

I said nothing whatsoever about 'the AMA way or no way', and you know it. What I said was that AMA can present some pretty convincing reasons for municipalities to allow AMA Chartered Clubs to have exclusive uses of public lands - municipalities do that all the time because municipalities _like_ not having to deal with liability issues arising from recreational use of their public lands.

If you think I'm making a threat by stating facts, you go right ahead and think that way, but I submit that misconstruing a statement of fact as a threat is hardly the way to go about finding that common ground you mentioned.

I think the 'common ground' here was supposed to be all about what folks think of the "e-flyer" membership proposal currently up for discussion at the next EC meeting.

For having been so bold as to do as asked by afineman, I apologize. It will not happen again. Bye, now

Stickbuilder

Bigger???? Faster???? I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours.

Loubud

Don't make me break out the camera. I have a sailplane that'll wax most gassers with the ability to hit 140 mph just on a bungee launch, which I won't use. I just put in a mean mutha motor and let her go. But my flying her is just theory right now. Not done building her yet.

Stickbuilder

Fred,

I think that some nerves have been a little raw in this forum. We all feel better now (well most of us) and that is as it should be. I've about decided to leave Lou my title of Mr. Grumpy Old Fart when I die, and I'm still trying to decide whom to leave my, Official Smart*ss title to. (got plenty of candidates for that one) After reading and re-reading Brent's postings I still can't decide which way he'll jump. Hopefully he will see that we actually are trying to help. I sincerely hope that you see it the same way.

Bill, AMA 4720

Stickbuilder

Motor????? Motor????? I use engines. All engines are motors, but not all motors are engines.

Bill, AMA 4720