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My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

Old 09-24-2006, 09:59 AM
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john68
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Default My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

Why?
Why do they even bother?
There is obvious prejudice in Model Aviation mag, and although I will agree it has gotten better over the past year, it shouldn't even be called "Model Aviation" Instead, why don't they call it "Model Airplanes?" That's all they seem to show in the magazine. freeflight rockets don't have a column, they are model aviation, and require the AMA liscence to operate. Helicopters get the very very short end of the stick, compared to all the coverage on airplanes.

I feel ashamed. Len Mount came all the way over the pond lugging that priceless chopper, which hadn't even been flown more than a quick hover test, to attend the 2006 Nats, and he gets a paragraph, and picture so small that most people probably will miss it when flipping through. I am ashamed to be a member of AMA. If the insurance wasn't required to fly at fields, I would not be a member. Don't get me wrong... I have nothign against airplanes. I think they are great, and they were my alley into R/C flight, but I can guarantee you that the AMA is loosing new members, because they aren't giving the helicopters enough of the spotlight. I can't even take my nitro helis to a certain PUBLIC local flying field, due to the level of intolerance shown by plane flying members. I get looks that would make a person think he has leperocy. On top of that, the helicopters are confined to a very small area, away from the rest of the flying field, pinned against the SPECTATOR PARKING. Last time I checked, I was still a model aviator. Why do I get treated differently?

I did read Bob Hunt's editorial on "accepting e-fliers." To them, I guess it is a big step. Maybe going a step further and including helicopter pilots would be nice too. I read on another forum something that blew my mind.

I just want to give an example of how the AMA appears to go out of their way to discomfort helicopter pilots. A few years back, a flying field was having a very large fun fly for their local club, and invited everyone to join in. They had reps from many different vendors, and some of the top R/C pilots in the U.S. As a special bonus, the CMU robotics institute was to bring their turbine powered helicopter, and their 10 foot rotorspan AUAV (autonomous unmanned aerial vehicle) which is a Yamaha RMAX helicopter. They were to give a flying demonstration of this amazing machine, and had the crew there for interviews. The AMA threatened to pull the field owner's AMA charter, if the helicopter flew. CMU carries their own insurance on the helicopter which is 10 times, literally 10 TIMES the amount covered by AMA, but regardless, the AMA wouldn't give a waiver to let the helicopter fly.

Sure, they'll give a waiver to a hobbiest pilot who wants to fly his turbine jet @ 200mph across the front of the flight line, but when CMU... to clarify... When Carnegie Mellon University's school of Robotics wants a waiver, they deny it. CMU robitics institute built the Mars Rover!!! This is the same helicopter and flying team that the FAA (yes the FAA!!!) and NTSB used to map the crash site of United flight 93. But no... the almighty AMA doesn't think they should be allowed to operate their ramshackle whirlygig on their sacred chartered flying field.. (can you detect a hint of sarcasm there?)

To Len Mount,
I am very glad to see you represented in an airplane dominated magazine. That is spectacular craftsmanship at its absolute best!


To AMA,
Don't harbor prejudice against pilots who can take off without a runway. Even though we don't need the runway, we still need the airspace.
Old 09-24-2006, 10:03 AM
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john68
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

let me know if that is too harsh, I'll delete it.
Old 09-24-2006, 12:39 PM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

I've seen a couple issue that have had mainly heli stuff. I usually complain because there is very little on RC nitro planes, usually HLG and if there is RC it's the electrics stuff which I gave up a year ago. I feel ya but fact is not that many people are into helis compared to planes.
AS far as discriminating again heli guys, I think it follows under the same notion of 3D fliers. IMHO Allot of the older pilots are whack and ignorant individuals that have to uphold their dominance. I'm not try to cut down older fellas it's just they are not tolerant of the younger generation. Since your doing something they don't do and probably can't do then they have a problem with it. Not to mention allot of them are pretty bad pilots and since some 3D guy or heli pilot at some point distracted them and they crashed their model they are at that point against the heli and or 3D flier. One of our clubs just tried to start this battle, banning or limitting 3D and heli flight over the runway luckily a few of the heli and 3D guys were their and stopped it. These are the people making the rules so that what we'er stuck with. That was a harsh battle too.
Old 09-24-2006, 12:57 PM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

I hear ya brother. That is one of my main complaint's about this hobby. I don't fly heli's but love to see them fly. Things always seem to get back to what you said at the end of your post. It's really to bad things are this way.
Old 09-24-2006, 01:42 PM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

Okay.....got that out of your system???? Maybe you could pen a few articles and have them published in Model Aviation. Or, possibly you could volunteer to take over the Heli column duties. Those who can...do...those who can't...complain.
Old 09-24-2006, 08:02 PM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

Thanks for such a nice come back. You wrote (( Those who can...do...those who can't...complain.)) Which category do you fit into? I think john68 is entitled to his opinion. With out the need for sarcasm from anyone.

That being said, there are alot of good articles in MA, there has also been alot of garbage in that magazine over the years. I am very sure if you read some of the past posts on RCU I have plenty of people that will back me up on that one.

Now that I have expressed my opinion on that I suppose that puts me in the later of your 2 catagories.
Old 09-24-2006, 09:07 PM
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john68
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

Al,

?

Sorry if I came off sounding like I was complaining. ? I guess...

It was more of a rant, due to the fact that, once again, there was no written column for helicopters. The other thing that set me off was the short write up on a legend in the scale helicopter world. When Len Mount comes to town, and brings his latest creation, it is to the scale helicopter world like the coming of the Beetles to Ed Sullivan. That might be a bit overdramatic, but it is hard to compare.

Are you directly involved in the AMA? Did you feel I was stepping on your toes? If so, on both accounts, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. I wasn't stepping on toes, I was letting everyone know what I am seeing. Apparently, I am not the only one seeing it.

I will agree with the other poster and say that their is ignorance involved on the part of fixed wing fliers. I was in an unfamiliar hobby shop the other day, and when I asked the man behind the counter if they had any 30% heli fuel, he told me, and I quote, "We don't carry anything that has to do with nitro helis. We only have stuff for the (helicopters)ones that aren't impossible to fly. " When I asked him if he ever had any stick time on a nitro bird, he didn't answer, but pointed me to a KNOW poor flying electric heli(that I don't care to name). I told him that if he could fly that heli, I would let him fly my nitro 50 size 3D heli. He declined my offer, but with a smile, instead of the gruff face that told me they were impossible to fly. That is just plain ignorance. That is why I am here. I am not an ignorant man. I love to learn, and I love to ask the biting questions that some may glance over. If I ask of the population of this board, a board made up of 250,000 r/c fanatics, if they are seeing the same thing as I, then I am answering my tough question.

Who should I contact to write articles for MA? There is quite a bit of physical distance between myself and the AMA headquarters. I'd do it though. I read up to 400 posts per day, when I am not busy with my work. I read several different forums, and not just here on RCU. I could do the job, and I would be willing, if it meant that I was taking a step in the right direction. I don't want you to think I am not a "doer." someone who isn't a "doer" wouldn't have written such a lenghty prose on a small oversight in the model aircraft world.


Finally, I have a question for you.

What if one of your neighbors goes out and buys a $1200 aluminum framed, li-poly powered, 3lb death machine, and then takes it to a local flying field, and gets turned away by the club? Now, let's say that since he was turned away, he never got that AMA liscence. Now, your untrained, uninsured neighbor takes that helicopter up in his backyard. Let's say it goes sky high, out of control, and lands on your car, glancing off and hitting your child or wife in the neck. What happens next? I can assure you that it will not be an easy situation to handle, and lots of explaining will have to be done. Explaining on both parts... maybe it will come up at your next club meeting. You all will scorn and scold that young man for not having his AMA, and for not flying at the field.

It is very uncomfortable for some people to walk onto a new playground with a bunch of strangers and feel welcomed. To compound matters, if he feels he is somewhat unwelcomed, or shunned because of his choice of R/C, then most likely, this situation will repeat itself... over and over....



I read a post on this forum about a young man who built his own frankenstien helicopter out of spare parts. He took it out in a cul-de-sac and plugged in the battery. within seconds of plugging it in, the helicopter raced out of control into the sky, and even though he chased it down as hard as he could, he never did recover it. Do you know the terminal velocity of an object does not apply if it is hooked to a high powered li-po battery and has rotating blades? what type of speed could you expect from an object like that? what type of damage could that do if it landed in a sand box full of toddlers?

I am just looking out for you, and myself. I don't want helicopters to be banned from sale, because some bent plank flyer didn't let me play with it on the club field.

John
Old 09-24-2006, 09:50 PM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

John68,
If you are talking about the public flying field that I think you are, you can fly helis there anytime you want. We have several guys in the club that fly helis. You just can't practice hovering over the runway while other pilots are trying to take off or land or hover in front of other pilots flying. If no one is flying, the whole runway is yours, and that is most of the time. If anyone tells you any different they are full of... you know what. There are a few (very few) anuses that may give you a hard time, but as long as you have AMA and obey the rules. you can fly there.

Stop by the ARCS on Sat. November 4th. Ray Stacy and Kyle Stacy will be there flying choppers. You can talk to the man who writes the AMA Helicopter column and tell him your concerns about how choppers aren't covered in the magazine.

As for the event where the CMU guys couldn't fly, I think that was probably just the decision of the land owner. A full scale pilot doesn't need an AMA waiver to fly his plane at an airport where there is a model fly-in happening and neither should those guys flying a UAV, as long as they have other permissions/waivers they may need. If they don't you can't expect the AMA to provide something that they can't legally provide.
Old 09-24-2006, 09:55 PM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

It wasn't that long ago that MA had what I thought was going to be a full time heli column. I don't have any idea what happened to it. Perhaps the person scheduled to write it had other items to tend to that required that time.

Althought the gentleman that set the new speed record had a rather small spot, I found it quite interesting. As a plank flyer that only flys small electric helis because they are inexpensive to repair I though it was pretty neat that the record was done with an electric.

There are a lot of aspects of our flying hobby that get the short shrift periodically but all we can do is either write an editorial long enough to look like a feature article or stand by and wait. Those that are knowledgable about helicopters in their many facets and that can write descriptively and well should do so. Ya never know, you might be offered a regular writing job if you can.
Old 09-24-2006, 09:59 PM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

The Heli column is full time but alternates every other month with the Jet column ( and I think there should be more jet coverage ).
Old 09-25-2006, 09:21 AM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers


ORIGINAL: john68

freeflight rockets don't have a column, they are model aviation, and require the AMA liscence to operate.
What if one of your neighbors goes out and buys a $1200 aluminum framed, li-poly powered, 3lb death machine, and then takes it to a local flying field, and gets turned away by the club? Now, let's say that since he was turned away, he never got that AMA liscence.

Umm....the AMA doesn't have any authority to "license" anything to operate.
Old 09-25-2006, 09:25 AM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers


ORIGINAL: john68


I just want to give an example of how the AMA appears to go out of their way to discomfort helicopter pilots. A few years back, a flying field was having a very large fun fly for their local club, and invited everyone to join in. They had reps from many different vendors, and some of the top R/C pilots in the U.S. As a special bonus, the CMU robotics institute was to bring their turbine powered helicopter, and their 10 foot rotorspan AUAV (autonomous unmanned aerial vehicle) which is a Yamaha RMAX helicopter. They were to give a flying demonstration of this amazing machine, and had the crew there for interviews. The AMA threatened to pull the field owner's AMA charter, if the helicopter flew. CMU carries their own insurance on the helicopter which is 10 times, literally 10 TIMES the amount covered by AMA, but regardless, the AMA wouldn't give a waiver to let the helicopter fly.



Obsiously I wasn't there and only know what you have posted about this, but from that is it possible that they were already trying to distance the model hobby from the UAV industry?

Just a thought.
Old 09-25-2006, 12:52 PM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

I think it comes down to two things.

1. We are a small percentage of the modeling community so we get a small percentage of the coverage (though with over 500 registered pilots at IRCHA this year I think its their biggest single event)

2. I think more people need to step up and submit content.

Red's battery clinic column is only every other month and almost everyone in the sport/hobby benefits from that.
Old 09-28-2006, 12:05 AM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

I think your post is well thought out and very informative.
I feel your passion and from your point of view, agree completely.
AMA needs to represent ALL aspects of the hobby, fairly.
They are clearly in the wrong, and need serious improvment, right now.
Old 09-29-2006, 05:07 PM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

Well, you know MA only publishes ONE helicopter oriented magazine a year...and since the Jan 2006 one sucked up all the heli allowance for the year, we got squat.

1 month of helis, and 11 months of flying poo like this...



Is that the best airplanes we can come up with is a dang modified cub...sheesh. With all due respect to DeHal....come on...
The magazine makes us look like a bunch of 90 year old men tossing cox .049 powered piece of grainsack covered wheaties boxes into the air.
I sware if I see one more article about some vintage ancient 1940's era flying brick, Im gonna start using MA for toilet paper.




Did anyone actually notice in the picture above that the prop is actually dragging on the ground....
Old 09-29-2006, 05:16 PM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

I'd like to see more heli coverage too, but I'd also like to see more IMAC, 3D, Giant, Hotliner, event, engine, and painting coverage as well. Unfortunately the AMA can only fit so much into its magazine and I've learned to live with not having much coverage on the topics that I enjoy. Fortunately we have forums to discuss exactly what part of model aviation we like to pursue. The real problem with the AMA and helis is AMA clubs who discriminate against helis, such as one of the local clubs near where I live. And I thought discrimination died in the 60's....... [:@]
Old 09-29-2006, 06:01 PM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

Yeah!!Why do they have all that stuff on glow planes???I hate glow.

I dont think they can fit all of us in the magazine and you have to remember that most of the AMA guys I have seen are not exactly youngsters, in fact the AMA ballot I just got has only one name on it, If you can't beat them join them and get it changed that way.

There is quite a tendency for certain groups to frown on others, ie 3D V Warbirds etc. We need to remember its a hobby for ALL within the rules.
Old 09-29-2006, 06:10 PM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

Even the two heli only mags that I subscribe to are bi-monthly.

I think of MA as more of a newsletter than informational magazine but every month there's atleast one great article on something interesting, even if its not heli related.
Old 09-29-2006, 06:16 PM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

sware if I see one more article about some vintage ancient 1940's era flying brick, Im gonna start using MA for toilet paper.
Sorry bdavison, I've already tried...the paper is too slick![:'(]

rod
Old 09-29-2006, 09:46 PM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

I have no interest in helicopters and do not read the helicopter column when it is printed. I do, however, think that helicopters get too little coverage. Do fliers build their helicopters or just buy them? Seriously, I don't know.
Old 09-29-2006, 10:17 PM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

Right now, I just skip over the control line & free flight stuff.
I see no reason I cant just skip over the heli stuff too if it was there.

Give the heli guys their due. Why not, like the guy said, they are model aviators too.

I do find it od that there is a lack of rotorcraft material in the magazine, but a good amount of heli ads.[&:]
Old 09-30-2006, 06:16 AM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

Although I am in total agreement with what you are saying, if you look at the age of a fair amount of the modelers a trend seems to appear. I would guess a fair majority are over sixty. I have no idea of the age of the people that write the articles for MA but my guess is they probably fall into that same age group.

Now that is not a bad thing. but it may reflect to a certain extent what the people that write for MA write about. Keep in mind I am not a spring chicken either.

The other thing that may come into play concerning the articles that appear in MA is that younger people may not have the time it takes to sit down and write articles. A retired person may be able to have the time to do this. Most younger people are probably working way to many hours do devote the time needed to write. To clarify that last statement I am sure most people that are involved with RC have to work to support their hobby. I could be way off base here, I have no idea how articles are submitted to MA to be published.
Old 09-30-2006, 06:33 AM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

My problem with it is that while they do occasionally post articles regarding all different types of model aviation,
the articles tend to be centered around ONE persons scratch-built plane instead of about current model aviation.

I fly both fixed and rotory models. But Im not re-living yesteryear. Honestly, how many of us are going to build
one of the ancient "featured" planes with plans. I have NEVER seen one single aircraft plan in that mag that I even remotely wanted to build.
90% of it is 1940's era planes that fly like garbage.

How about plans for a nice new pattern bird, or perhaps a 3D plane.

I mean come on...do we honestly need another Daddy Rabbit. Sure it may have been a great plane 30 years ago, but now....I can buy just about any sport model that will fly circles around that thing. They are poo. They fly like poo. Trying to get the model aviation public to fly those is like Burt Rutan trying to get the X-prize with a Curtiss Jenny.
We are in 2006, show us the new stuff. SPA keeps trying to tell us "the old pattern planes fly great", NO!!!! they dont, compared with the planes of today, they are lead sleds with no maneuverability. ITS CRAP! Garbage Garbage Garbage. Put plans in there for a 2m Brio or a 25% Edge 540, and watch what happens. Ill bet they actually "sell" a copy.

If Im going to skip all the terrific ARF's out there and scratch build something from plans, I want a plane that will keep up with the ARF's, otherwise its not worth the trouble.
Scratch-building a Daddy Rabbit, when I can call tower and get a plane that will smoke that daddy rabbit....thanks...Ill call tower.

Its nice that they finally gave the electrics some page space, but once again they've filled it with old flat bottom wing non-aerobatic models that are suitable
for circle flying and thats about it. Sheesh...at least give us something with ailerons. You'd think MA never heard of a 4 channel radio.



Old 09-30-2006, 07:07 AM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

MA has become fossilized, but then if you have read the magazine over the years you know that it really has changed very little in format. I sometimes wonder if the magazine articles are what the publishers and other AMA personnel are personally interested in? I usually read most columns, even if I wasn't involved in that area of the hobby. Sometimes I even learned a new trick from them!

I learned to fly in that era where most of that old junk is all we had to fly. It was crap then and is crap now. Model aviation had to go through the growing process to get where we are now and the AMA was a huge part of it, but it's time to move on. Let's look to what's ahead, not behind.

Maybe we will get lucky and MA will publish an old set of scratch built heli plans for us heli pilots! Come to think of it, I HOPE NOT!...LOL..I've been there and done that.....they were crap too![&o]

Rod
Old 09-30-2006, 07:51 AM
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Default RE: My "AMA vs. Helicopter Pilots" rant ignore, if you hate rants & helictopers

Here's an idea......drop your membership and go outlaw.

Here's another- for those who "need" the AMA- give the magazine to someone who will appreciate it, like someone in a nursing home or drop it off at the local barbershop.

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