How does your club handle this?
#1
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How does your club handle this?
AMA Bylaws: Article VI. Dues
>>>>"The Executive Council shall set dues for all types of AMA membership.
Any AMA member who fails to pay annual dues within thirty (30) days
after they are due and payable shall be dropped from the membership rolls.
In any event, a member’s dues must be currently paid in order to exercise
the right to vote."
Personally, I think it is a reasonable ruling. It honors AMA membership until Jan. 30 of the current year. My main club honors that ruling in its own Bylaws. Full club privileges, actually through Jan. 31, and if not Club Dues paid plus AMA, then it's outsville, any return is as a NEW member with the same $50 initiation fee + full year's dues.
Now there is some contention that AMA may NOT honor their own Bylaws, although IMO they have no recourse should push come to shove. [sm=greedy.gif]
I was recently informed if AMA (in their 10 +/- years of walking the circle trails concerning Bylaws changes they have made no progress) should bring this item into discussion, then the push would be to revise the no-vote to include being in "bad standing, no flying, and no use of any AMA facilities."
Seems a tad harsh to me.
Any inputs how you or your club handles this not-often-discussed point?
edited to remove word.
>>>>"The Executive Council shall set dues for all types of AMA membership.
Any AMA member who fails to pay annual dues within thirty (30) days
after they are due and payable shall be dropped from the membership rolls.
In any event, a member’s dues must be currently paid in order to exercise
the right to vote."
Personally, I think it is a reasonable ruling. It honors AMA membership until Jan. 30 of the current year. My main club honors that ruling in its own Bylaws. Full club privileges, actually through Jan. 31, and if not Club Dues paid plus AMA, then it's outsville, any return is as a NEW member with the same $50 initiation fee + full year's dues.
Now there is some contention that AMA may NOT honor their own Bylaws, although IMO they have no recourse should push come to shove. [sm=greedy.gif]
I was recently informed if AMA (in their 10 +/- years of walking the circle trails concerning Bylaws changes they have made no progress) should bring this item into discussion, then the push would be to revise the no-vote to include being in "bad standing, no flying, and no use of any AMA facilities."
Seems a tad harsh to me.
Any inputs how you or your club handles this not-often-discussed point?
edited to remove word.
#3
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RE: How does your club handle this?
ORIGINAL: Mode One
It's like pulling teeth to get members to pay up. Both the AMA and club dues!
It's like pulling teeth to get members to pay up. Both the AMA and club dues!
So, Mode One, does that mean that you pull their teeth in late Jan. or you just make dental appointments for the delinquent payers?
That also seems harsh!
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RE: How does your club handle this?
A couple of clubs I belong to presume that a member not renewed on Jan 1 is not insured personally, and does not conform to the mandate that all club members must be AMA members and so jeopardizes the club's liability coverage, too. As for "bad standing, no flying, and no use of any AMA facilities," no place where I fly has any AMA facilities (does any place other than Muncie?), and I could give a rat's corpse about being in bad standing as I can foresee no adverse consequence of that. Heck, I'm doubtless in bad standing by posting to this forum.
Abel
Abel
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RE: How does your club handle this?
Hoss
You wonder how eather the AMA or Clubs are going to inforce NOW what they have let slide for so many Years. They need use more than we need them. Both will take what they can get in order to get by membership and due's any way they can get them to stay alive.
You wonder how eather the AMA or Clubs are going to inforce NOW what they have let slide for so many Years. They need use more than we need them. Both will take what they can get in order to get by membership and due's any way they can get them to stay alive.
#6
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RE: How does your club handle this?
Hoss: Our club has about 70 members. We try to get everybody to renew their AMA as soon as the renewal notices are received in the mail. Most everybody (95%) does that. Our dues are renewable anytime before the first of January, and the new AMA card must be shown when those dues are paid. Members that haven't paid their dues by Jan. ist. are dropped from the membership rolls, and cannot use the flying field facilities.
Late stragglers are added to the roster when their dues are paid, but they must hold the new AMA card also. Nobody can re-join without having the AMA renewal in hand.
Late stragglers are added to the roster when their dues are paid, but they must hold the new AMA card also. Nobody can re-join without having the AMA renewal in hand.
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RE: How does your club handle this?
Two of the clubs I fly at in Oz handle this same issue this way (Our MAAA dues are due at the end of June there)
"Any member who hasn't paid thier dues by 1/July is not allowed to fly until those dues are paid"
"Any member who pays their dues late can still re-join the club without repaying the nomination fee but if one year has elapsed, the nomination fee will apply".
In Oz - the clubs collect the entire membership and submit te return to the MAAA(aussie equivalent of the AMA) on the members behalf. for those of us that are members of more than one club, we just show the other clubs the receipt from the club where our MAAA dues have been paid and they don't charge us that part of the fees.
"Any member who hasn't paid thier dues by 1/July is not allowed to fly until those dues are paid"
"Any member who pays their dues late can still re-join the club without repaying the nomination fee but if one year has elapsed, the nomination fee will apply".
In Oz - the clubs collect the entire membership and submit te return to the MAAA(aussie equivalent of the AMA) on the members behalf. for those of us that are members of more than one club, we just show the other clubs the receipt from the club where our MAAA dues have been paid and they don't charge us that part of the fees.
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RE: How does your club handle this?
Our field is snowed in much of the winter, it's in a State Park where insurance is a requirment to fly so our members have to be paid up to fly. I don't see AMA doing anything to enforce any rules anyway, judging from past situations with them and rules violations........my 2 cents.
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RE: How does your club handle this?
Help - can one of the moderators remove the attachments from my post? (otherwise the whole post). I have no idea where those photos came from they just appeared on it - they are not mine - I don't even have such vehicles.
Then can you also remove this one please??
Then can you also remove this one please??
#11
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RE: How does your club handle this?
There's always gonna be the few that don't have the new AMA card for whatever reason. But to ban them from flying for the first 30days of the new year? C'mon, as long as they are otherwise in good standing with the club let 'em fly. Ya know, the more the merrier! But after 30days I like Hossfly's idea--pay the initiation fee and the club dues. I know there will be alot of flak over that, but hey, everyone knows the rules about dues.
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RE: How does your club handle this?
ORIGINAL: Hossfly
Any inputs how you or your club handles this not-often-discussed point?
Any inputs how you or your club handles this not-often-discussed point?
Oh wait...That was my old club’s method. I'll have to check our new club's procedure now… Now I remember...it is automatic since our club membership runs concurrent with AMA membership...That simple. We let the AMA do all the strong arm work
#13
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RE: How does your club handle this?
I would have just assumed that if you had a 2007 card,
and havent bought a 2008 one yet, whether it is 29 Jan 2008 or 1 Jan 2008 or Feb32nd 2008
you aint in the AMA with a card for a term that expired- 2007 card is no good in 2008.
Considering the availibility of payment documentation, either via web reciept, fax, or club pres call, you either paid for the AMA year or you didnt. I dont understand why there is the 30day grace for AMA, when they mail you the renewal so dang early. In 2007 I didnt renew until mid year, I cant see how in January(or Feb or March) I could have considered myself somehow still active & allowed to fly where AMA was required in 2007 with just a 2006 card. When I did renew midyear, I didnt notice any difference in the process or cost than if I had done it the day they mailed the renewal... I simply paid a years price for the partial year left, but we all saw that coming & not a big deal.
Why wouldnt your AMA'ness plain stop if you dont have a current card, why have 30days.
Just what are folks doing & where are they doing it those 30 days? Flying on last years card in this year?
I'm not taking a shot at the system, I really havent heard anything about this & am learning the 30day ropes from this thread.
(seems once again Hoss brings AMA knowlege to those that have it not [sm=thumbup.gif])
and havent bought a 2008 one yet, whether it is 29 Jan 2008 or 1 Jan 2008 or Feb32nd 2008
you aint in the AMA with a card for a term that expired- 2007 card is no good in 2008.
Considering the availibility of payment documentation, either via web reciept, fax, or club pres call, you either paid for the AMA year or you didnt. I dont understand why there is the 30day grace for AMA, when they mail you the renewal so dang early. In 2007 I didnt renew until mid year, I cant see how in January(or Feb or March) I could have considered myself somehow still active & allowed to fly where AMA was required in 2007 with just a 2006 card. When I did renew midyear, I didnt notice any difference in the process or cost than if I had done it the day they mailed the renewal... I simply paid a years price for the partial year left, but we all saw that coming & not a big deal.
Why wouldnt your AMA'ness plain stop if you dont have a current card, why have 30days.
Just what are folks doing & where are they doing it those 30 days? Flying on last years card in this year?
I'm not taking a shot at the system, I really havent heard anything about this & am learning the 30day ropes from this thread.
(seems once again Hoss brings AMA knowlege to those that have it not [sm=thumbup.gif])
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RE: How does your club handle this?
I have suggested to the board that the non-payers be advised they will need to re-join and pay the $25.00 initiation fee, after they have paid up their AMA dues, as our club requires current membership in the AMA (which I would guess is a requiremnt of all AMA clubs). So far the board is considering their options as this is a recurring problem year after year, after year!
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RE: How does your club handle this?
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
I would have just assumed that if you had a 2007 card,
and havent bought a 2008 one yet, whether it is 29 Jan 2008 or 1 Jan 2008 or Feb32nd 2008
you aint in the AMA with a card for a term that expired- 2007 card is no good in 2008.
Considering the availibility of payment documentation, either via web reciept, fax, or club pres call, you either paid for the AMA year or you didnt. I dont understand why there is the 30day grace for AMA, when they mail you the renewal so dang early. In 2007 I didnt renew until mid year, I cant see how in January(or Feb or March) I could have considered myself somehow still active & allowed to fly where AMA was required in 2007 with just a 2006 card. When I did renew midyear, I didnt notice any difference in the process or cost than if I had done it the day they mailed the renewal... I simply paid a years price for the partial year left, but we all saw that coming & not a big deal.
Why wouldnt your AMA'ness plain stop if you dont have a current card, why have 30days.
Just what are folks doing & where are they doing it those 30 days? Flying on last years card in this year?
I'm not taking a shot at the system, I really havent heard anything about this & am learning the 30day ropes from this thread.
(seems once again Hoss brings AMA knowlege to those that have it not [sm=thumbup.gif])
I would have just assumed that if you had a 2007 card,
and havent bought a 2008 one yet, whether it is 29 Jan 2008 or 1 Jan 2008 or Feb32nd 2008
you aint in the AMA with a card for a term that expired- 2007 card is no good in 2008.
Considering the availibility of payment documentation, either via web reciept, fax, or club pres call, you either paid for the AMA year or you didnt. I dont understand why there is the 30day grace for AMA, when they mail you the renewal so dang early. In 2007 I didnt renew until mid year, I cant see how in January(or Feb or March) I could have considered myself somehow still active & allowed to fly where AMA was required in 2007 with just a 2006 card. When I did renew midyear, I didnt notice any difference in the process or cost than if I had done it the day they mailed the renewal... I simply paid a years price for the partial year left, but we all saw that coming & not a big deal.
Why wouldnt your AMA'ness plain stop if you dont have a current card, why have 30days.
Just what are folks doing & where are they doing it those 30 days? Flying on last years card in this year?
I'm not taking a shot at the system, I really havent heard anything about this & am learning the 30day ropes from this thread.
(seems once again Hoss brings AMA knowlege to those that have it not [sm=thumbup.gif])
As far as AMA dues are concerned I agree. You have plenty of time and everyone knows it expires 01/01 so why the provision for the procratinators and wannabe dead beats.
Tack on a late fee or penalty. At least 10%.
With the club dues there are other incentives to pay on time like avoiding intiation fees.
"AMA'ness". I like that.
#16
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RE: How does your club handle this?
I gues I'm just not seeing how we all know the a paid AMA year expires at the end of that year,
what I dont get is why anyone is wanting/getting to do AMA member things after their term has expired.
As for AMA charging more for folks that pay late,
they already do that: You get 10 months of membership for the 12month price.... you really pay thru the nose if you hand over $58 in September or November! Just consider the folks that renewed on time paid for 12 months @ $4.83, and the guy that re-ups in June pays for 7months of $4.83 + $24 penalty = $58
AMA already has more than $50 built-in Late Penalty for guys that renew in December, right?
Pay $4.83 for December & the $53 penalty = $58 for December renewers.
what I dont get is why anyone is wanting/getting to do AMA member things after their term has expired.
As for AMA charging more for folks that pay late,
they already do that: You get 10 months of membership for the 12month price.... you really pay thru the nose if you hand over $58 in September or November! Just consider the folks that renewed on time paid for 12 months @ $4.83, and the guy that re-ups in June pays for 7months of $4.83 + $24 penalty = $58
AMA already has more than $50 built-in Late Penalty for guys that renew in December, right?
Pay $4.83 for December & the $53 penalty = $58 for December renewers.
#17
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RE: How does your club handle this?
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
I gues I'm just not seeing how we all know the a paid AMA year expires at the end of that year,
what I dont get is why anyone is wanting/getting to do AMA member things after their term has expired.
I gues I'm just not seeing how we all know the a paid AMA year expires at the end of that year,
what I dont get is why anyone is wanting/getting to do AMA member things after their term has expired.
The "....getting..." is because the AMA Bylaws are written to allow that break for members. The Constitution of the United States allows Congress to "....promote the General Welfare." Look at just who has to PAY for those that PROFIT from that simple allowance! AMA's providing for a small thing to assist some AMA members to remain paid-up members at that time of the year, is A-OK in my book. BTW, it serves ME not, as I am a LIFE member.
As for AMA charging more for folks that pay late,
they already do that: You get 10 months of membership for the 12month price.... you really pay thru the nose if you hand over $58 in September or November! Just consider the folks that renewed on time paid for 12 months @ $4.83, and the guy that re-ups in June pays for 7months of $4.83 + $24 penalty = $58
they already do that: You get 10 months of membership for the 12month price.... you really pay thru the nose if you hand over $58 in September or November! Just consider the folks that renewed on time paid for 12 months @ $4.83, and the guy that re-ups in June pays for 7months of $4.83 + $24 penalty = $58
Absolute confusion exists in that statement, KID! For those that RENEW late, that is THEIR Choice. If AMA charged by the month, then some would only pay for those months they fly. AMA membership is a calendar-year thing. Take it or leave it. When I order out for a pizza, I can't just just take a few slices that have the most pepperoni, and not pay for the whole thing!
AMA already has more than $50 built-in Late Penalty for guys that renew in December, right?
Pay $4.83 for December & the $53 penalty = $58 for December renewers.
Pay $4.83 for December & the $53 penalty = $58 for December renewers.
If a 2007 member RENEWED in Oct/Nov/Dec, then that $58 goes for the 12 months of 2008, and has nothing to do with the 2007 months.
NO FRIGGING PENALTIES other than those penalties that some would-be sharpshooters shoot their own foot with. [>:]
#18
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RE: How does your club handle this?
Hoss,
Sure it is ones choice.
Just as chosing to renew ones car registration is optional... nobody is forcing anyone to renew late, or to renew at all.
But for folks that do choose to renew,
meaning we are not talking about the Joiners thet get a next year prorate,
they either get 12 months of the next year for their $58 if they renew on time,
or they get fewer months than 12 for their $58 if they renew late <after the year started>.
So if the late guys get only 10 or 6 or even just 3 months for their $58, they are clearly paying more for those few months of the 2008 term than the guy that paid $58 on time & got the whole 12 months of 2008. In december, GuyA says this month worked out to just $5 while Guy B says the month worked out to $58.
This was only to address they guys that want some kind of penalty for renewing late... there is one: the dues dont prorate & late guys get less for their $58 <I did the math earlier to put a $ figure on the wasted money, could be more then $50 of term burnt by being late>. This of course only works if they late guys really do get less term than on time guys. Which the 30day grace seems to work against: You get full term even if 29days late.
Why do I care so much about it?
I dont overly care about it, I was just pointing out to the guys that want $ penalties that there alread is a kind of $ wasted by joining after the DueDate (& it seems the 30days Grace too). Robotech said + At Least 10%, I simply demonstrated a guy might pay as much as 99% Waste if he renews at the end of December.
Getting back to having the 30day <rather than discussing penalty concepts>
30days Grace, 0day grace... whatever, it just changes when the Deadbeatism starts. I didnt know we had it, I didnt use it, I wouldnt have it if I was king of america, but I dont care enough to try to talk folks into changing it.... not even to stir it up here in the forum. Others said No Grace, Some said NoGrace + Penalty, my 2cents is in with the guys that said nograce but I dont feel adding $ is needed.
Oh, it is not P&M to point out your "WRONG!" is indeed misplaced.
I never said anything about Joiners, this whole thread is about Renewers & Late Renewers,
so I cannot be wrong about joiners & prorating. What I said about RENEWERS is accurate, right?
I fully accept your statement that there is no official $Penalty.
You just happen to not get over 90% of what you pay for, by your choice, if you choose to wait til Dec 2008 to renew after your 2007 expires.
Sure it is ones choice.
Just as chosing to renew ones car registration is optional... nobody is forcing anyone to renew late, or to renew at all.
But for folks that do choose to renew,
meaning we are not talking about the Joiners thet get a next year prorate,
they either get 12 months of the next year for their $58 if they renew on time,
or they get fewer months than 12 for their $58 if they renew late <after the year started>.
So if the late guys get only 10 or 6 or even just 3 months for their $58, they are clearly paying more for those few months of the 2008 term than the guy that paid $58 on time & got the whole 12 months of 2008. In december, GuyA says this month worked out to just $5 while Guy B says the month worked out to $58.
This was only to address they guys that want some kind of penalty for renewing late... there is one: the dues dont prorate & late guys get less for their $58 <I did the math earlier to put a $ figure on the wasted money, could be more then $50 of term burnt by being late>. This of course only works if they late guys really do get less term than on time guys. Which the 30day grace seems to work against: You get full term even if 29days late.
Why do I care so much about it?
I dont overly care about it, I was just pointing out to the guys that want $ penalties that there alread is a kind of $ wasted by joining after the DueDate (& it seems the 30days Grace too). Robotech said + At Least 10%, I simply demonstrated a guy might pay as much as 99% Waste if he renews at the end of December.
Getting back to having the 30day <rather than discussing penalty concepts>
30days Grace, 0day grace... whatever, it just changes when the Deadbeatism starts. I didnt know we had it, I didnt use it, I wouldnt have it if I was king of america, but I dont care enough to try to talk folks into changing it.... not even to stir it up here in the forum. Others said No Grace, Some said NoGrace + Penalty, my 2cents is in with the guys that said nograce but I dont feel adding $ is needed.
Oh, it is not P&M to point out your "WRONG!" is indeed misplaced.
I never said anything about Joiners, this whole thread is about Renewers & Late Renewers,
so I cannot be wrong about joiners & prorating. What I said about RENEWERS is accurate, right?
I fully accept your statement that there is no official $Penalty.
You just happen to not get over 90% of what you pay for, by your choice, if you choose to wait til Dec 2008 to renew after your 2007 expires.
#19
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RE: How does your club handle this?
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
Oh, it is not P&M to point out your "WRONG!" is indeed misplaced.
I never said anything about Joiners, this whole thread is about Renewers & Late Renewers,
so I cannot be wrong about joiners & prorating. What I said about RENEWERS is accurate, right?
Oh, it is not P&M to point out your "WRONG!" is indeed misplaced.
I never said anything about Joiners, this whole thread is about Renewers & Late Renewers,
so I cannot be wrong about joiners & prorating. What I said about RENEWERS is accurate, right?
Gad! this is stretching the original topic and I can't explain how I got sucked into it, but...........maybe this will help put it to rest.
I think what Hoss was relying on as authority behind his statement was this, from the Bylaws: "Any AMA member who fails to pay annual dues within thirty (30) days after they are due and payable shall be dropped from the membership rolls."
Dropped from membership rolls means one is no longer a member, right? If you buy that, then there is no difference between joiners and late renewers - both are just non-members applying for membership.
Penalizing late renewers would appear to be no different than penalizing 1st time joiners. Not to say AMA wouldn't do that - for some at HQ its another revenue opportunity.
Abel
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RE: How does your club handle this?
Abel-
Thanks for trying to straighten me out, but I'm now torn between the different types of Joiners ( 1st Timers & Droppees Re-Joining... same AMA#?), and the prorating or lack there of.
I really dont care enough to go further here with this. I will just stick to my plan of me not flying at clubs without a current card in my hand & that should keep me out of trouble.
Thanks for trying to straighten me out, but I'm now torn between the different types of Joiners ( 1st Timers & Droppees Re-Joining... same AMA#?), and the prorating or lack there of.
I really dont care enough to go further here with this. I will just stick to my plan of me not flying at clubs without a current card in my hand & that should keep me out of trouble.
#21
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RE: How does your club handle this?
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
Abel-
Thanks for trying to straighten me out, but I'm now torn between the different types of Joiners ( 1st Timers & Droppees Re-Joining... same AMA#?), and the prorating or lack there of.
Abel-
Thanks for trying to straighten me out, but I'm now torn between the different types of Joiners ( 1st Timers & Droppees Re-Joining... same AMA#?), and the prorating or lack there of.
#22
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RE: How does your club handle this?
I guess it's just a part of my disposition and how I was raised. I'm a member of the AMA and a member of my local club. When either entity has deemed it's dues are payable, I take it as a responsibility to pay them within the parameters I'm provided. This just seems like the honorable thing to do. I don't want to have the AMA or my club make, any extra effort to collect what is due.
The above just seems to me to be what is the "Right thing to do".
The above just seems to me to be what is the "Right thing to do".
#23
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RE: How does your club handle this?
We have one fella that goes to Arizona every winter an doesn't get back until the end of March. He just pays up his club dues when he gets back. We don't worry at all, he's done it like that for years.
Then we have a coupla tightwads we hafta dun a lot to get the $ every Jan. But they eventually come thru.
Ron
Then we have a coupla tightwads we hafta dun a lot to get the $ every Jan. But they eventually come thru.
Ron
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RE: How does your club handle this?
Seriously speaking, I image this "grace period" is due to insurance aspects of AMA and the varying state laws as well as federal law that pertain to insurance providers. It wouldn’t be all that hard to construe AMA as an insurance provider, especially considering the SI portion. Even though such laws may not be applicable to AMA it appears to be smart policy so as to bypass possible litigation of such contentions…on the flip side…it may become very contentious for some unfortunate non-paid-up member that has an accident on Jan 5. The ball would be in his court.
It is apparent that one's “actual” membership lapses as evidenced by the no vote reference.
It is apparent that one's “actual” membership lapses as evidenced by the no vote reference.
#25
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RE: How does your club handle this?
Ah, I see that Hossfly is getting a jump on the PR for his next quadra-annual AMA presidential try...
It doesn't matter. Historically, in _any_ club, there are stragglers.
--Bill
It doesn't matter. Historically, in _any_ club, there are stragglers.
--Bill