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Request forwarded to AMA EC members

Old 04-22-2003, 05:17 PM
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If I offered them $100 an hour to teach, it wouldn't do any good, because they simply do not want to go through the mental stress of teaching on a regular basis. They will give a hand now and then, but no amount of compensation will motive them anymore than they are.
Nascarjoe,

for that kind of money I'd come up one or two weekends a month and teach for you. I'll even bring my own fuel and plane
Old 04-22-2003, 05:32 PM
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Originally posted by Crashem
Nascarjoe,

for that kind of money I'd come up one or two weekends a month and teach for you. I'll even bring my own fuel and plane
LOL, for that kind of money, I will learn how to become an instructor myself. That guy in Wisconsin is pulling in $2400 a week. Whewww!!!

nascarjoe
Old 04-22-2003, 05:47 PM
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Crashem

Actually I thought I was being conservative in my view , because I didnt add , the small claims court into the senario, for the person who didnt feel that he got his moneys worth ,

Highlander
Old 04-22-2003, 07:00 PM
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Hello Highlander

I brought up some of the same concerns you have in a past thread, At first I looked at it as you did , a personal trainer, but later looked at it as an Educational Class no different than a VOTech or Community Collage. I know If I were to be a paid instructor I would spell it out in advance That..

1- This is a class, and more than one student may be part of this class.

2- Classes will be held on specific days and times for all students .

3- Each student will progress at different speeds .

4- Each student is guaranteed a XX number of training flights with the instructors aircraft and the students aircraft.

Stuff like this. The more I thought about it the more I understood it would have to be treated like any other business, We are at the mercy of almost everybody Else's schedule for services, We can't get Doctors Visits on demand, our cars fixed on demand, an education on demand, Etc . Etc. So I think if the instructor laid out his conditions First, and the student understands and agrees with them I don't see as much of a customer satisfaction problem , but there is no question that a few of the "want it Now" crowd are going to get impatient and complain or throw a Fit. My response MAY be to refund what time they have not used and advise them to find another hobby, these would certainly not be who we need in the hobby, I would also make it possible for the students to have a feedback forum for the paid instructors of some kind perhaps with the AMA , there is no question you may have a few instructors that are not worth a Styro Foam prop. The students should also have a OUT for improper service .


Thanks HossFly!
Old 04-22-2003, 07:06 PM
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Actually I thought I was being conservative in my view , because I didnt add , the small claims court into the senario, for the person who didnt feel that he got his moneys worth ,
No highlander I would not call it conservative. Just the price of doing business in today's world.

Small cliams court seems to go with the territory. Thats why I mentioned a contract to protect yourself unfortunatly very few people do business on a hand shake any more. Anybody that would attempt this or any other business venture without the proper insurance and legal advice is simply asking for trouble.

But more to your point:

Ski instructors, golf instructors, teachers etc seem to do ok without pulled into small cliams court on a regular basis. Why would you think a professionally run instructor program would be any different
Old 04-22-2003, 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by nascarjoe
LOL, for that kind of money, I will learn how to become an instructor myself. That guy in Wisconsin is pulling in $2400 a week. Whewww!!!

nascarjoe

See what I mean about the level of compensation affecting peoples motivation level. You throw out a price of 100 dollars an hour and I was already to quit my day job and move into a tent at the flying field of your choice just to provide instruction to your customers!!!!

I can't believe that for the right price and or perks that you couldn't find a few local instructors.

Seriously, why aren't you exploring that option more aggressivly Seems to me that if you provided that level of service you would not only be different from the competition but you could afford to compete with mail order on the product and make much more margin on the service.

I've allways day dreamed about owning a hobby shop with its own field and doing something similar. Unfortunatly that day dream allways starts out with after I WIN the LOTTO
Old 04-22-2003, 07:15 PM
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Dave Bowles,

KI couldn't agree with you more. approaching this from a business perspective is the only way to make it work. If you took Highlanders point of view nobnody would be running their own business's because they'd be too afriad of what could happen
Old 04-22-2003, 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by Hossfly
OTOH, I never knew of you making a commitment to a newbie for constant instruction and taking the individual through a course of instruction from first flight through passing Jetero's solo check-out.
I guess you dont remember a gentleman named Bill Beck.
I worked with Bill for almost exactly 2 years to get him to the point where we could unplug the cord.
This also included NUMEROUS trips to his house to work help him with his planes, radio set ups etc.

He is just one of the many.

Alot of times the help I provided was not just in how to safely land a trainer but in how to use their new computer radio, building techniques, maiden flights, etc.

There is more to it than how to wiggle the sticks.

People came to me because of my relaxed atitude and willingness to help anyone anytime..



Just an opinion, but I think if this was an AMA idea to have paid instructors you'd be the first to disagree with it.
I think you enjoy yanking their chain anytime you can.
Old 04-22-2003, 08:06 PM
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One theme of this thread states that the easy availability of ARFs is contributing to instructor frustration & burn-out.

If that is the case, perhaps instructors who feel they are in this boat may wish add a prerequisite to their training: build your trainer from a kit and I'll teach you to fly it. Yes, its a throw back to years long past, but it can also help re-establish the desired "two-way street" of dedication that some instructors feel is lacking. Fortunately, there are still a number of easy-to-build kits on the market; with laser cutting and CA, building has never been easier. With a good instructor, solid glue joints, and a reliable engine, even a trainer with a bananna fuselage and warped wings can be made to fly.

This approach is not for all instructors - only those who are tired of the merry-go-round. Of course, an instructor who himself has never built a kit probably wouldn't feel good about this approach; it's strictly a personal choice.

Hossfly... maybe this is something you could consider. The one student per year that you would get MIGHT just stick with the program after you're done with him.

Gary
Old 04-22-2003, 11:10 PM
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TOUCHE! Wayne.

Guess you did spend some time there.
I had about 10 to solo during that time period and plus I am gone most of each summer, so I don't try to spend so much time with a guy. After 20 -- 30 flights, I expect him to be able to safely fly the machine in presence of other pilots, make consecutive landings without killing the engine, have a good working knowledge of the AMA Safety Code and Club rules plus total respect for Club Frequency Control Procedures. Radio Programing 101 is his own homework.

In any case I did not start this thread simply to argue techniques, look at what I did, and, or to argue about any past personality conflicts. Therefore, don't expect any more answers from me to your picking on this thread.
This thread started with an idea that has been around a long time. Definitely not originated by me, however I have been in favor of such for a long time.

Just as a clue; here is a start:

>>>>>>>
Date: 4/21/2003 9:24:40 AM Central Standard Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Horrace

First off, understand that I FULLY agree that we need to figure out a way to allow paid instruction. Failure to do so is, simply, resulting in the very dangerous problem of people going out to "teach themselves", and this isn't
always happening with a model, suitable to this task. (A park flyer is one thing, BUT, we have people trying this with the proverbial "P51").

I have tried to impress the EC with the need to embrace such a program.........."
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

My letter is simply a grain of sand on the beach. OTOH the longest journey starts with the first step.

'Nuff said.
Old 04-23-2003, 12:21 AM
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Horrace,

I wasnt attacking you or nit-picking you.
My initial question was why you had changed your view between now and when a Jetero instructor was doing what you are advocating..

I guess you dont see it as the same situation somehow.






Originally posted by Hossfly
I had about 10 to solo during that time period and plus I am gone most of each summer, so I don't try to spend so much time with a guy. After 20 -- 30 flights, I expect him to be able to safely fly the machine in presence of other pilots, make consecutive landings without killing the engine, have a good working knowledge of the AMA Safety Code and Club rules plus total respect for Club Frequency Control Procedures. Radio Programing 101 is his own homework.

I have to ask you if that atitude is going to change if you are getting paid?
Some people (such as Bill) dont take to it as naturally as others. I admire him for sticking with it even when he was getting frustrated.
What a person like that needs is a dedicated instructor.
Not one who expects things in a certain time frame. If you go into it with a time frame and expectations as an instructor, when you feel that time frame has been exceeded you yourself are going to get frustrated.
A student will feel that. That is not conducive to learning.

And as I said before, there is a lot more to being a good instructor that just how to wiggle the sticks.
Old 04-23-2003, 04:17 AM
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I don't believe anyone is wanting everyone to charge a fee, all we are looking at is getting the AMA to add this to their insurance coverage and possibly provide guidance for those who want to develop a program. There will be many people who do not wish to charge a fee, nobody will be required to charge a fee. There are lots of things I would like to do but can't afford it.
Old 04-23-2003, 05:37 AM
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Crashem

Just by way of rebuttal to your post , I owned operated and retired from my own business ,perhaps it is experiance speaking rather than fear , It is no secret that we live a society that has no problem suing ,

It really doesnt matter to me if instructors charge or not , Im not affected by it ,personally , I simply put out a thought that had not been considered in earlier posts ,

from the point of view of the consumer ,rather than that of the instructor ,

it is my position that the hobby has already become to expensive as a family activity , that is the simple reality of it .


Highlander
Old 04-23-2003, 05:53 AM
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Dave ,

There is no doubt in my mind that a suitable contract could be drawn up that would protect both sides of this question from harm to a certian degree , and I can understand someone who wants to start a flight instruction school, but if I read the initial post correctly, these are club instructors that are being talked about ,not flight training schools , and club fields or did I miss read the post, in my mind this changes things from a business to a place that all involved spend time ,money and energy,including the newbie .

Business is one thing club interaction is another ,

Highlander
Old 04-23-2003, 08:15 AM
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Come on fellows, get off the expense band wagon. Not all people will be able to afford all things. Like I said earlier, I don't own a P51 because I can't afford it.

Also, I was flying in the 60's when a new 4 function proportional radio cost $400 to $800 1965 dollars (todays equivalent value of $3000). You can be in the air today with a good trainer for $300 to $500. Add $200 on top for an instructor and you are still less than 1/3 the cost of just the 1965 radio.

So lets drop the $$$ song. It's a bad tune.

Dan
Old 04-23-2003, 11:49 AM
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Originally posted by Highlander
O
one lends itself to promotion (love of the hobby)
one lends itself to exclusivity (those who can afford it )


Highlander
I haven't made up my mind on the issue yet, but the above comment seems quite important to the issue.
Old 04-23-2003, 11:59 AM
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Default The purpose

I thought the purpose of this proposal at this time was simply to get the AMA rules reguarding insurance for paid instructors changed ?
Old 04-23-2003, 01:28 PM
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Default Re: The purpose

Originally posted by Dave Bowles
I thought the purpose of this proposal at this time was simply to get the AMA rules reguarding insurance for paid instructors changed ?
So did I. One of the largest clubs in the country is within 10 miles of my club and they are turning newbies away. Our guys are burning out. Something has to be done.

JR
Old 04-23-2003, 01:51 PM
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I read the initial post correctly, these are club instructors that are being talked about ,not flight training schools , and club fields or did I miss read the post, in my mind this changes things from a business to a place that all involved spend time ,money and energy,including the newbie .
Highlander,

With your business experience I would think that you would already know when money's invovled its allways different.

You're right the topic was and is paid flight instructors. And as I mentioned to you anyone contempletating doing this without proper legal advice and insurance among other things would be foolish.

BTW AS far as I know you could still take the volunteer instructor to court so that seems to me to be a moot point. Anybody can sue anybody for any reason

IFLYJ3,

You're absolutly right.
Old 04-23-2003, 04:40 PM
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Crashem

Lets suppose that AMA agrees to change the rules regarding Paid instructors and their insurance , once completed ,then would the clubs be allowed to charge the instructors for the use of the field ?

since most of the fields in question are under club control would it be ethical for the instructors to use them for free ?

Or would it be ethical for the clubs to charge an hourly fee for the use of them while the instructor is using the field for personal gain , rather than as a club promotion ,IE free Instruction to club members ?


Just a subjective question.

since this is being injected with a business aspect ,which I truely fail to see unless the instrctors have their own field or lease one ,

Highlander
Old 04-23-2003, 05:07 PM
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If the instructor is a member and the trainee is a member of the club why would they both not have permission to use the field just like any other member?

To me the point is to make instruction more accessible. If it is OK for the same instructor to train the same student at the same field as long as it is done for free, I do not see how allowing a fee to be charged would be any more of an inconvenience to the other members.

As I said before if there is an adequate number of free instructors available at your field no one would pay for instruction.

Eric
Old 04-23-2003, 05:46 PM
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Eric

The question is really pretty simple , If the club as an entity controls the field , it is inherently unfair to the other club members for some to profit from their investment , of time, money and effort , without reinbersement of some kind ,We just all maintain ,improve ,advertise, for this instructor for free ?Hmmm now theres a thought , just so that he can charge those we bring into the hobby ?

Remember this question of instructors charging has been presented as a business , the conflict of interest is blinding in that light, there are tax questions along with entity responsibility
does the club wish to pick up liability issues from someone who in actuality would be a subcontractor ?these insructors will be responsible to report any income from this ( business) along with other licensing and bonding proceedures which may exist .Has anyone looked into what will be required ? my guess is that the requirements will be as numerous as the areas where this activity will take place ,

If the club maintains an exempt status , could they maintain that status without a seperation from the instructor who charges for services under the umbrella of the club ?

one of the easiest ways to deal with such questions would be to apply a charge on the instructor ,now that charge would not have to be great , but it would have to be consistent ,

these are just a few examples off the top of my head of the things that will need to be addressed before any such decision could be made with any type of a responsible and reasoned approach.

Im not looking to this question with any real desire one way or the other , Im just making fodder for the thinking person.Like I have already stated , it doesnt affect me personally one way or the other .

Highlander
Old 04-23-2003, 07:45 PM
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I am fully in favor of Hossfly's proposal, or something like it. At any rate, the AMA must take a leadership position to make paid instruction common. The sport/hobby has changed significantly over the years, and the leadership needs to catch up. I think this is one of those issues where almost everybody thinks it's completely natural, but it hasn't happened because of a very vocal, well-placed, minority.

To the folks that think the sport is already too expensive for a family activity, I appreciate what you're saying, but Hossfly is correct in saying everybody has a different view. I see guys with $5,000 planes every time I visit the field. I know guys that spend thousands on golf courses and clubs. Parents pay for ski lessons, tennis lessons, music lessons, soccer fees, private schools, therapists, Ski-dos, summer houses, SUV's, cell phones, cable TV, European vacations, RV's, heck, you get the idea. It's not really the cost, it's the priority you put on it. But compared to the college vacation, I would guess that RC instruction would be a drop in the bucket.

I am a little concerned what paid instruction would do to free instruction. My guess is that, paradoxically, it would wipe it out. My guess is that you'd get a lot of instructors who would teach for very low cost, say $15 a hour. That would be enough to cover the insurance and administrative costs, and maybe buy a new kit or engine every once in a while.

What nobody has mentioned is the unfortunate fact that people tend to value stuff less when it is free. Probably the only reason "free" instruction is not totally abused now is that it's not really free, it comes with your AMA and club membership, which is most likely $100 a year or more. Watch how fast people learn when their wallet depends on it!

Lastly, I don't think paid instruction means the end of the volunteer effort and spirit that makes clubs so wonderful. There is still the events to hold, the grass to cut, the government lobbying, and hundreds of other tasks for volunteer spirit.
Old 04-23-2003, 07:53 PM
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When you operate a buisness or have a service for profit You carry your own Ins. Been There Done that , What you are propossing Is It Primary or Secondary covarge??????????? I don't think AMA Isurance can do this . This means that an Instructor charging for a service can not be covered by AMA.
Old 04-23-2003, 08:42 PM
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>>>>>>>>>>
Highlander says; "The question is really pretty simple , If the club as an entity controls the field , it is inherently unfair to the other club members for some to profit from their investment , of time, money and effort , without reinbersement of some kind ,We just all maintain ,improve ,advertise, for this instructor for free ?Hmmm now theres a thought , just so that he can charge those we bring into the hobby ?
<<<<<<

Not as in the basic proposal, Highlander. If you are having trouble with the reading and comprehension, I will offer a bit of help.

The proposal is about CLUBS, that unit comprised of a group of individuals that vote to do something a certain way. Whatever the majority of VOTERS, that vote, votes to happen so happens.

If a CLUB has enough Instructors available to do the job freely, then so be it. NO NEED TO JOIN THIS PROGRAM.

The basic proposal specifies that a CLUB should pay AMA a certain fee for participation and each selected Paid-Instructor will pay AMA a fee. In SIMPLE words those receiving monetary renumeration will pay the additional cost of AMA provided insurance.

The basic proposal specifies that the CLUB and the INDIVIDUAL -- depending on the Club's agreements -- would share in the revenue from the instruction fees. THEIR CHOICE of arrangement.
Bottom Line: The Club can gain a benefit from the program. This makes it where all members gain.

The only ones that will complain are just like in all programs. Those that are NOT going to do anything free or paid will P & M the most when others do.

Highlander, you display an inherent misconception of "exempt status" which has significant differences between the IRS 501 (c) (3) exempt organizations and the standard tax-exempt unit. As the state rep. for Jetero's Corporation, we don't have to pay state sales tax, and an amount of income is exempt from income tax. DO NOT expect to be able to deduct any amount that you might donate to us from your income taxes. 501 (c) (3) we ain't!
The answer to your question is YES.

Jetero maintains two Mowing Contracts each with individual contractors plus leases 25 of their 30 acres to a Hay Farmer. The hay farmer lease maintains that 25 acres under Agriculture which reduces the PROPERTY TAXES -- which we pay -- by some 70% over standard.

A Club can enter into contracts with other persons/units.

So Highlander, while perhaps you are making fodder, a little research just may upgrade your fodder into a pre-digested type.

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