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Request forwarded to AMA EC members

Old 04-23-2003, 09:58 PM
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Highlander,

I guess I just see it differently than you. To me the paid instructor would not be taking advantage of the club, he would be helping them. The new guy that could not find an available instructor now has one. And although there would be a fee involved, I do not see much chance that suddenly a large group of people would find permanent employment as RC instructors.

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Old 04-23-2003, 11:10 PM
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Last I heard, there were 2500 AMA clubs in existance, meaning that I don't know how anyone would know how well, or even if each club has a flight instruction program going. In the veteran flier's opinion, all clubs have ready, willing and eager to teach volunteers so paid instruction is just not needed. Once more, paid instruction can be optional, not mandatory.

One thing that no one has brought up that could make the entire subject of paid instruction a moot point. That is whether the paid instructor charges $5.00 or $50 per hour, how many instructors could mentally handle teaching for such a prolonged period? From what I hear, instructors are currently burning out teaching 6-10 minutes at a time. I've recently went to AMA's website and found a page where RC flight instructors are listed. It seems there are no volunteer instructors, just professional flight schools. If there are so many volunteers out there, why isn't the page jammed packed with the names of those volunteers?

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Old 04-24-2003, 12:17 AM
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if people have to pay for instruction...there will be alot less people in this hobby.....is that what you are wanting? this hobby need to bring more people in...not run people off....if you want to make money for instructing...then you don't enjoy it and you shouldn't be doing it...Also how were you elected to be the instructor at your field? were you voted in? did you VOLUNTEER? or were you roped in to it? i'm betting on the second one....volunteered...
T28pilot,

If paying an instructor to learn how to fly makes the hobby too expensive for a person then I'd say they'd better find a less expensive hobby. Almost all popular recreational activities have paid instructors.. You don't hear the guy at the pro shop or ski school complaining that they should be taught for free!!!!

As far as your second point goes so what if you volunteered flying is a skill and if a person wants to try and profit from it they should be able to.

You don't seem to have a problem with building and selling planes thats a skill just like flying!!!

IF YOU WANT TO MAKE MONEY ON MY HOBBY.......YOU BETTER START BUILDING PLANES OR SELLING MOTORS....cause i will fight you all the way!!!

With an attitude like yours you should find a different hobby like Golf.... Maybe we could pass the "hat" around so you wouldn't become irate when the Golf instructor asked for his fee

Get real. There is no such thing as a free lunch!!!!
Old 04-24-2003, 12:23 AM
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Crashem,

Your right. there is no such thing as a free lunch but is that reason enough to charge? Just because you can?

You guys do what you want but there will always be FREE, no hassle instruction here in Central Illinois.
Old 04-24-2003, 12:37 AM
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You guys do what you want but there will always be FREE, no hassle instruction here in Central Illinois.
wgeffon,

From what I can tell from reading this thread and others what you are procliaming as "free" isn't either.

People complian that the newbies ARF shows a lack of dedication to the hobby so why trian them. Then compliants are raised if the newbie drops out and we here comments like why invest the effort when the newbies don't stick with it.

If it was offered free with no strings attached that would be one thing but go back and re-read some of these posts. One guy states that instructors should only teach those who built the plane from a kit others gripe about lack of dedication. Me I'd rather pay my instructor and tell him to shove all the high and mighty moral platitudes. Free means just that unfotunatly we as people seldom do anything for "free".
Old 04-24-2003, 01:02 AM
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Originally posted by Crashem
Free means just that unfotunatly we as people seldom do anything for "free".
I am not sure what planet you people are coming from? what has happened to this hobby and you greedy ass people...No i am not irate i am stating a point....and i will stifck to that point....Not everyone in this hobby or world was born with a silver spoon in there mouth...as you are stating you need to be well off to fly airplanes....bullcrap...any normal kid with a few yards to mow or a few beans to walk or corn to de-tassel could easily save up enuff to buy a RTF trainer from one of the major companies...and take it to the local field and learn to fly....ya he may not be flying 40% planes in IMAC competitions or flyin huge scale warplane...but he is having fun....and thats what this hobby is all about....what should be talked about here is Donating planes and Donating your time to these people to keep our hobby alive....not about Chargeing exorbant amounts of money to teach people to fly....and who knows that little boy with the 329.00 trainer he bought from working all summer may turn out to be the next Chip Hyde or Mike McConville....or buy charging him to learn how to fly and him not doing it cause he can't afford the extra costs....he may end up some Dope Dealer on the street cause the one thing in his life he was looking for just slapped him in the face....cause you wanted paid....get over yourself....and look out for the new people in this hobby and get paid somewhere else....not in my hobby!
Old 04-24-2003, 01:18 AM
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Not everyone in this hobby or world was born with a silver spoon in there mouth...as you are stating you need to be well off to fly airplanes....bullcrap...any normal kid with a few yards to mow or a few beans to walk or corn to de-tassel could easily save up enuff to buy a RTF trainer from one of the major companies...and take it to the local field and learn to fly....ya he may not be flying 40% planes in IMAC competitions or flyin huge scale warplane...but he is having fun....and thats what this hobby is all about....what should be talked about here is Donating planes and Donating your time to these people to keep our hobby alive....not about Chargeing exorbant amounts of money to teach people to fly....and who knows that little boy with the 329.00 trainer he bought from working all summer may turn out to be the next Chip Hyde or Mike McConville....
And if 329 for the plane is too much should Tower just lower the price for the kid or better yet give it away??? It's you sir who is from another planet. Every activity has a cost. It's funny you should bring the kid issue into because when I started at 15 mowing lawns was exactly how I paid for the gear and you know what most people said this was a old mans hobby and kids should be out playing ball.

This like any hobby for most is financed with disposable income if you don't have enough disosable income then this is the wrong activity. You shouldn't assume that because you can't afford to fully participate that others should come to your aid.

Charging for lessons is not wrong and is the right way to grow this hobby. People tend to place a higher value on things earned then things given freely.

See it all the time in the consulting industry. People seem to accept my professional opinion more when they're paying 150/hr to hear me say it. Funny thing is a few weeks ago I spoke with an old client about upgrading a app in a bar spent 1-2 hrs telling him what I thought. You know what he said Thanks thats all well and good but maybe I'll pay you to come in and explian this to me agian. I looked at him and said sure but the only thing that will be different at your office is that this conversation is going to cost 150-300 bucks. Funny how paying for advice seems to make some people value it more.
Old 04-24-2003, 01:24 AM
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As long as I was taught to fly planes for free, I will give instruction freely, and since there are thousands like me I don't see paid instruction becoming common. The notion that RC flying has changed significantly is pure bull; we all start because it looks like a fun activity. Maybe it has changed for those who have been in the hobby so long that they forgot why they joined in the first place, but at my club beginners will always learn for free.
Old 04-24-2003, 01:33 AM
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Well said Ryan!
Old 04-24-2003, 01:49 AM
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>>>>>
T-28: "I'm poor and Blind and wgeffon helps me fly everytime i am at the field....i could not afford to pay someone to do it....as i am on disability....if i had to pay 150.00 or even 75.00 i could not be in this hobby...if not for people like wgeffon i would be stuck in the house with my trains all the time...but because of people who are willing to help for free....just cause they like to...i can still fly my R/C airplanes"
<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>
T-28's PROFILE: Radios Owned Only Need 2 radios....JR8103 and the JR XR3 for land
Planes Owned: Lanier Edge 540T, Hanger9, Ultrastick, Lions Christian Eagle, Hobbico Viper, Great Planes Shoestring
<<<<<<<<<

Really in a financial bind there T-28, RIGHT?

How many trainers are you sponsoring for all those poor little Tykes?

I too never had the silver spoon. Earned some money for .25 and .50 cent Joe Ott and Comet kits. Couldn't afford Cleveland.

Earned that first Thor .29 and CL kit along with the above JO/C kits by PICKING COTTON, and cutting yards with push rotary mower. Later funded modeling, girls, and fishing by sawing logs, peeling piling, gathering corn, then working pipelines, then into USAF Aviation Cadets. Had no time for trouble.

Some years later -- I also invested $250,000.00 to assure that my club would have a place to fly. (Worst da_n investment ever made financially.) I'm tired of having to instruct to assure the club continues. Hopefully some AMA ALLOWED PAID INSTRUCTORS just might reduce my load.

Even YOUR mentality should be able to recognize a CHOICE. You seem to have a varied CHOICE of airplanes.

The HOBBY may belong to YOU, however I have more than PAID my dues to the SPORT.

With your collection of airplanes, I am not going to worry about your position. However, I do recognize dog feces when I see it, or in this case read of it.

So fight on.
Old 04-24-2003, 02:00 AM
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Originally posted by Hossfly
>

I too never had the silver spoon. Earned some money for .25 and .50 cent Joe Ott and Comet kits. Couldn't afford Cleveland.

Earned that first Thor .29 and CL kit along with the above JO/C kits by PICKING COTTON, and cutting yards with push rotary mower. Later funded modeling, girls, and fishing by sawing logs, peeling piling, gathering corn, then working pipelines, then into USAF Aviation Cadets. Had no time for trouble.


So fight on.
ok when you were earning pennies....what if someone...say back in the day...told you it would be 25.00 a hour to learn how to fly?
you would of took your raggedly ol plane back home or to the local park or football field and smashed it into the ground...then you were done...no more plane...you hated the hobby and the butthead at the local club who wanted to charge a 15 year old kid 25.00 a hour to learn how to do the best thing he'd ever wanted to do?...oh ya i forgot...screw that pay me!
Old 04-24-2003, 05:08 AM
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Default To funny

This Discussion is getting more comical every day, Where in any of these posts has anyone stated they want to change the way anybody or any club does their training, NOBODY wants to make it mandatory or even recommend that anybody do it, Hossfly , I and others are simply making a proposal to have paid instructors as an OPTION, Hossfly has even made the suggestion that it cost extra , WE in no way want to force this option on anybody, What is with all the Knee JERK reactions , This Option would be for the Instructors who would like to be paid for their time accept students who are WILLING to pay for instructions, I have not seen any suggestions that you can't have both . This Hobby can be as cheap or as expensive as YOU want it to be. If someone wants to pay to have perhaps more professional type training there should be a program available for those instructors wanting to do it.

This is an Excerpt from our training program.

"Membership in the SMRCC is “highly” recommended (New members can sign up at the field). Due to the limited number of “Volunteer” club instructors and the large turnout for training preference to club members will prevail during schedule training times"

Club Membership is $45.00, AMA is $58.00

What would be the problem with ADDING, " Individual instruction can be arranged at scheduled training times and/or at other than scheduled training for an extra Fee "

There is absolutely no rule of thumb that can determine who will and will not stick with this hobby after learning to fly their trainer, But there is no question that the percentage is higher for those who have the patients to build their trainer . That does not mean that ARFS are BAD, it doesn't mean the ARF crowd should not be given any less attention . It simply a trend that those who have been in the hobby a long time have noticed.
Old 04-24-2003, 05:45 AM
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You know what Hossfly , if the attitude that is presented in your posts is any indication of your teaching techniques , I dont think we need to worry about you making money as an instructor ,

So I will just wish you luck, and make my feelings known to the AMA, who are really the ones who will determine the outcome ,

Have A Great Day!!!

Highlander
Old 04-24-2003, 05:55 AM
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Originally posted by Dave Bowles
Where in any of these posts has anyone stated they want to change the way anybody or any club does their training, NOBODY wants to make it mandatory or even recommend that anybody do it, Hossfly , I and others are simply making a proposal...................
Actually Dave, it was mentioned here:

Originally posted by pinball
At any rate, the AMA must take a leadership position to make paid instruction common. The sport/hobby has changed significantly over the years, and the leadership needs to catch up. I think this is one of those issues where almost everybody thinks it's completely natural, but it hasn't happened because of a very vocal, well-placed, minority.
Sound like a recommendation? There have been subtle and not so subtle hints from others in this thread, but that post is what got my attention.

In either case it doesn't really matter to me, my club will not pay any fee to allow paid instruction sanctioned by the AMA, at least while I'm president. We're about having fun with new friends, not making money.
Old 04-24-2003, 06:40 AM
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Default Once Again

Wanting to make something Common, Like ARFS , does not mean to do away with the free programs (or KITS) or replace the free programs , I and others simply see a potential want or need for a fee service and would like the AMA to have insurance available for those who may want to use it. There are free and paid teaching services for almost every other skilled actively, Golf, Billiards, Swimming , General Fitness, Martial Arts , Sky Diving , Full Scale Flying, Ultra lite Aircraft, Tennis , Baseball, Just about any sport, hobby or activity , Why not Radio Control, Its not just a Hobby Anymore. I guess I am Pro Choice in this matter.
Old 04-24-2003, 07:03 AM
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Default Re: Once Again

Originally posted by Dave Bowles
Its not just a Hobby Anymore.
Why isn't it? What is different about today than say, ten or fifteen years ago?
Old 04-24-2003, 10:33 AM
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Default Not Just A hobby

Because 15 years ago the "Hobby" was learning about Aviation, for Many it still is , but for a large amount of new people it is now just a Saturday Activity. The new Hobby Shops main objective is a good bottom line , not the advancement of the hobby like the Mom and Pop places, you use to be able to call almost ANY hobby store and get a question answered , Now in many places you are lucky if the sales clerk even knows what a Glow Plug is. For a large amount of people it is no longer a Hobby of Model Aviation but an activity of flying Radio Control airplanes, there is no commitment to the club or the hobby , just another object to put on the shelf until I want to play with it again, I have lots of Model Trains but I don't consider myself a Model Train Hobbyist. I can buy a Model Rocket and not be a Model Rocketry Hobbyist, you can buy a Radio Controled airplane and not be a Model Aviation Hobbyist.
Old 04-24-2003, 11:36 AM
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http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread...&referrerid=60]
Old 04-24-2003, 11:48 AM
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Default Re: Not Just A hobby

Originally posted by Dave Bowles
Because 15 years ago the "Hobby" was learning about Aviation, for Many it still is , but for a large amount of new people it is now just a Saturday Activity. The new Hobby Shops main objective is a good bottom line , not the advancement of the hobby like the Mom and Pop places, you use to be able to call almost ANY hobby store and get a question answered , Now in many places you are lucky if the sales clerk even knows what a Glow Plug is. For a large amount of people it is no longer a Hobby of Model Aviation but an activity of flying Radio Control airplanes, there is no commitment to the club or the hobby , just another object to put on the shelf until I want to play with it again, I have lots of Model Trains but I don't consider myself a Model Train Hobbyist. I can buy a Model Rocket and not be a Model Rocketry Hobbyist, you can buy a Radio Controled airplane and not be a Model Aviation Hobbyist.
You were very close, but missed the boat...er, I mean plane.

Someone who buys a model rocket may not be a hobbyis and someone who buys and builds an airplane kit then flys it once and moves on may not be a hobbyist. But, someone who sticks with it because they enjoy it, whether it is learning about the aviation part or simply flying the heck out of the plane once a month, is still a hobbyist, just like 25 years ago. It is still a hobby, and will always have varying levels of participation. Frankly, that is one of the great things about it.

And, before anyone asks, no, I still haven't made up my mind about the paid instructor/insurance issue.
Old 04-24-2003, 12:08 PM
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Default O.K.

Well Perhaps the differance is it use to be a Hobby of Model Aviation and now it is simply a Hobby of Flying Model Airplanes.
Old 04-24-2003, 12:34 PM
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Default Re: Re: Once Again

Originally posted by Flyfalcons
Why isn't it? What is different about today than say, ten or fifteen years ago?
I'll tell you.


I fly at the biggest field in the second biggest city in the US. So maybe I am getting a bit more exposed to this trend on a large level than some of you are.

For the guy worried about the 15 year old who is picking cotton.....DON'T! There is a never ending stream of people old and young with new ARFs ready to learn. They pay the 20 dollars to join our club get lessons and thats the last we see of them. To them they are ALREADY paying for instruction, just a lot less than the other guys....

....who pay the professional instructors about 20 bucks for a 4 flight session....same field

The hobby is bigger than ever (according to 2 friends in the business) but the AVERAGE level of the building/maintaining skills have never been lower. There is almost no understanding or desire to understand to a deeper level the hobby, or the techniques behind it , no interest in joining or staying in (much less participating) in a club.

As someone said here it is strictly a recreation. I think soon at my field there will be leasing of planes, you just show up and at the field and fly, someone else takes care of the plane cause that guy does not have time to learn what a clevis is and why it turns.

That's what has changed. This type of person outnumbers the classic "hobbyist" stereotype by about 5 to one. They are going through instructors like popcorn.
Old 04-24-2003, 03:14 PM
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Since this topic seemed to impact Beginners I started a Poll in the Beginners Forum Take a look at the results. Most feel that it's the clubs job to provide the instruction as part of membership with a strong second voting not at any price.

Makes you kinda think? If clubs are responsible for training then what do the clubs do to attract instructors (free memberships etc..) At least now I see why some instructors are getting burned out.
Old 04-24-2003, 03:16 PM
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Hi,
I've taught a lot of people over the years how to fly, but quit instructing about 5 years ago. The difference is, flyfalcons, 15 years ago a student was grateful for the time and effort the instructor spent with him, now it's "expected" someone will teach him how to fly. 15 years ago the "newbie" built his own model, installed the radio and engine and had a pretty good idea how everything went together. Today the "newbie" comes to the field with his ARF, wants to use other people's fuel, doesn't have a spare prop or glow plugs, and expects the instructor to be there at a time convenient to the student. Also, 15 years ago the student would put the time in to learn, now it's a day here and and a day there, sometimes with weeks or even months between lessons and then he gets mad because he isn't "learning anything". Of course the above doesn't apply to all "newbies", but applies to a majority.
Maybe if they had to pay, they'd take it a little more seriously.
Jon
Old 04-24-2003, 04:00 PM
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Let me try to be a little clearer, since my post was a little misunderstood...

I don't think anybody should be forced, persuaded, or encouraged to pay for instruction. I have tremendous respect for the volunteers that give so freely of their time for the satisfaction of helping others. They are some of my heros. In no way would I say anything that disrespects them.

Like others, I am just asking for the OPTION. For the clubs where free instruction meets the needs of all the students, more power to them. Paid instructors would get no business at that field, and there is no fight.

The reason I mentioned the AMA is that there are currently STRUCTURAL barriers to paid instruction at AMA clubs, and only the AMA can remove them. In other words, currently, for almost everybody who doesn't want to travel to Monterray, paid instruction is NOT AN OPTION, due to AMA policies.

What I support is for the AMA leadership to understand that volunteer instruction is not working at all clubs, and is not working for all students, and with small low-cost changes, they could lift the barrier. While I do believe that over time paid instruction would become the norm, I could be wrong, and it might never be the norm at certain clubs where you have volunteers passionate about free instruction.

There is a huge debate whether paid instruction would increase or decrease interest in flying. I think it would increase interest, but if I'm wrong, no harm would be done, since it wouldn't catch on. We'd simply look back and say, "Yeah we tried paid instructors in the 2000's, but it never caught on with the students."
Old 04-24-2003, 04:44 PM
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Pin Ball post #76

RIGHT ON............ Beautifully said.

Dan

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