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Request forwarded to AMA EC members

Old 04-24-2003, 05:04 PM
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Ya pinball that is really a good post , it lets those opposed know that they need to contact their district reps , and voice that opposition where it will do some good ,.

that is exactly what I will be doing ,


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Old 04-24-2003, 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by pinball


There is a huge debate whether paid instruction would increase or decrease interest in flying. I think it would increase interest, but if I'm wrong, no harm would be done, since it wouldn't catch on. We'd simply look back and say, "Yeah we tried paid instructors in the 2000's, but it never caught on with the students."

VERY well said...
Old 04-24-2003, 05:44 PM
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In post # 75, F106A writes:
Hi,
I've taught a lot of people over the years how to fly, but quit instructing about 5 years ago. The difference is, flyfalcons, 15 years ago a student was grateful...
<snip>
I think that this post sums it up. Years ago, learning to build and fly was an apprenticeship-- you got with people, you worked and learned. Nowadays, it's more like an entitlement program.

In another thread is was said:
Something needs to be done to encourage the old guys to spend time to give back to the sport that they have enjoyed for so many years.
Those old guys have already paid their dues, and more than just money to the clubs. The clubs and the flying fields exist because of the efforts of the "old guys". I don't see where they have to give anything back.

Good discussion here.
Old 04-24-2003, 05:54 PM
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Those old guys have already paid their dues, and more than just money to the clubs. The clubs and the flying fields exist because of the efforts of the "old guys". I don't see where they have to give anything back.
You're right.

However the "old" guys are the ones taking expection to optional paid instruction.

Seems to me that we have that if it was good enough for me then its good enough for you syndrome going on here... Times change attitudes change theirfore shouldn't this hobby?
Old 04-24-2003, 05:59 PM
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Damn, you guys must have a lot of ungrateful students at your fields. I'm glad I don't fly there. All of my students are great. To each their own.
Old 04-24-2003, 06:14 PM
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And to be honst, I have not seen any real change in the last fifteen years. When I started ten years ago, not everyone was doing it to 'learn about aviation'. Fifteen years ago I was sitting in my Dad's truck at the field, watching the planes go. Guess what I see today, kids in their dad's trucks watching the planes go. Not everyone back then had aspirations for full scale flight, and the same holds true today. You still see planes hanging from the ceilings at the hobby shops, you still look through the Tower catalogs, and you can still count on someone at the field lending you a glow starter if yours dies. We still have fly-ins, BBQ's at the field, and can sit around and tell lies when it gets too dark to fly. RC Flying is still the activity that it was when I started ten years ago. For me at least it's still a ton of fun, and I love to share that enthusiasm with my (non-paying) students.
Old 04-24-2003, 06:57 PM
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Maybe it has changed for those who have been in the hobby so long that they forgot why they joined in the first place, but at my club beginners will always learn for free.
Be careful, "always" is a long time. What about when you're the only instructor, and there are 30 kids with brand new ARFS waiting in line at 8:30 Saturday am for their "free" lesson? What about when they start complaining that they paid their club and AMA dues, now what kind of service is this that they wait in line and only get one flight in a week? Now one Dad steps out of line and asks you if he can get some paid instruction, that he would be gladly willing to pay $20/hour (chump change compared to all the other lessons the kid takes) just so he doesn't have to wait in that damn line.

Then, at the end of the year, you notice that of all those folks you trained, less than 5% have re-upped and joined the club. Where are the future volunteer instructors going to come from? You trained 100 people. 95 have disappeared. Of those 5, how many want to be volunteer instructors? Yet next year, you have another 30 newbies to train, and your pool of instructors isn't growing too quickly.

This obviously doesn't describe your field, or anything you can imagine. But believe it or not, it's not that far fetched. Very dedicated, generous helpful people are looking at scenarios like this today, and that doesn't even count all the people who want to learn, but who take one look at that line and decide to do something else.
Old 04-24-2003, 06:59 PM
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Yes, I said always, because I will be there providing free instruction. This hobby is too much fun to charge people for my services at the field.
Old 04-24-2003, 07:20 PM
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Nobody Said EVERY student in the past was interested in model Aviation , Not EVERY student is a KID, in fact in our area most are Adults. This is the only thing I don't like about discussion forums, the words SOME, MANY or Majority seem to mean ALL, Everbody, and TILL the END of TIME, the word OPTION , CHOICE , means Manditory and Forced . Come On GUYS and GALS. I have never charged anyone to help or teach M.A. and probibly won't but I would like to see the option available , I am sure in some areas it would be Helpful.
Old 04-24-2003, 07:28 PM
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Ryan,
You obviously belong to a very special club. As you can see from the previous posts, most instructors recent experiences are completely different.
I'm not sure how you can say there hasn't been any changes in the last 15 years, just look at the ARF market, which was very small 15 years ago. When I go to the hobby shop there are more ARF's than kits, and the ARF's sell MUCH better than the kits, even experienced modelers are buying ARF's. To show how things have changed, I know of a couple of guys that are building ARF's, instead of kits, for customers. Jeeezz.
As for kids, it's very rare to see any kid at the field that isn't the son of a member.
I guess it's different out west, but here in NJ the posts by pinball and Bill Harris pretty much sums up the state of modeling here in the northeast.
It's not a very encouraging picture.
Regards,
Jon
Old 04-25-2003, 01:59 AM
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I shouldn't have said everyone. What I should have said was the percentages are basically the same, at least from what I've seen. Either way, total participation is on the rise (at least it seems that way in my area) and that is the important thing.

Remind me never to move to the Northeast. I've heard nothing but positive comments about the clubs over here.
Old 04-25-2003, 12:56 PM
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And I did not mean to make a blanket statement, either.

There are still a lot of good folks out there wanting to get involved in this hobby. I suspect that the number are the same as they have been. What skews the perception is that the are a lot more "bARF wannabees" that have unrealistic expectations of what it takes to fly well. Literally, it can take a few hours every weekend for several months to become proficient and and some can not make that committement.

Really, I'm not a curmudgeon...
Old 04-25-2003, 03:11 PM
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Remind me never to move to the Northeast. I've heard nothing but positive comments about the clubs over here.

I think you may still be missing the point. It's not that east coast instructors aren't generous and giving. The clubs here are great, and I've never met as dedicated and hard-working group (as I'm sure you are too). These are good people. The problem is that they are overwhelmed by students, 95% of whom we never see after one season.

All I'm asking is that you put yourself in the shoes of these giving and dedicated club members who are just like you, but overwhelmed with new flyers.

Paid instructors aren't going to kill the spirit of giving. There's so much more that can be done, going into schools, managing the field, putting on demos, or, if it works in your area, teaching for free.
Old 04-25-2003, 05:02 PM
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Free instuction has worked for how long ??????? actually the question is not whether free instruction works, that has been proven for many years the question is will paid instruction work ?

even though there are Instuction schools now in existence ,those who developed such schools did not ask that AMA support promote or even provide an Insurance for them , they like every other business put in the sweat ,money ,and effort , and started a business they bought or leased land developed a runway and buildings opened their doors and began , they do not have clubs capturing new members for them to bleed money from but through diligence hard work and customer satisfaction have made a go of it.

It is obvious from the proponents of this thread that they want the business handed to them ,supported by the AMA which Im sure will be an advertising bonus to them ,along with clubs supplying them with a never ending stream of new money ,

once this type of program begins the newbies will suffer and the experianced will stagnate.

so far through all of this discussion, I have not heard one person ask why the insurance program is set up the way it is,nor have I heard one of the proponents explain why it is set up the way it is Im sure that there is a reason, and probly a very simple one , so since I have not heard it explained from any angle , I will be contacting AMA to find out .


as should any others who have that question,

I have zero problem with someone starting an Instruction school as long as that is what it is ,in fact I think it is a good Idea , they need to be more plentiful,and I believe they would be an asset to the sport, but I do not believe that they will be an asset to the hobby, and that is the root base of the local clubs , the hobby, not the sport .

I have heard this presented as the same as golf ,tennis ,and many other SPORTS, and in that is the difference , this on the club level is a HOBBY.


Highlander
Old 04-25-2003, 05:14 PM
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Highlander,

You should learn to comprehend what you have read. No where did anyone advocate usiing the clubs or AMA to promote there business.

It's amazing how you have become so fixated on the money issue from your first post procliaming to all what activities in the hobby that YOU will allow money to be made. GET OVER YOUR SELF.
Old 04-25-2003, 05:29 PM
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The Implications are clear , Crashem , as for your demeening spirit ,you probly cant help it .thats always what happens when someone opposes a strawman.

If the club instructors are allowed to charge ? who are they going to charge? will they not be new club members ? and will they not be covered by AMA unbrella of insurance ? dont the clubs use AMA to promote the expansion of their clubs? are,nt new members required to be be AMA members ?

this was presented as an INTERCLUB activity!!!

Perhaps it is you that should look beneath the superficial arguements and see what is beneath .
Old 04-25-2003, 05:38 PM
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when I pay for something I expect certian things , the same would hold true in paying for an instructor ,

I would expect to be able to recieve instruction ,according to my schedule ,

I would expect as many hours as needed for me to solo, and at that point I would expect continued attention to the point of confidence ,

I would expect help in perfecting my plane , IE control throws, radio set up , and damage repair ,

I would expect !!!!!!! that is where the problem with paid club instructors would come into effect , when someone pays they expect ,

you think that demanding people are bad for free ,just wait until they pay for the service , you will not be able to say the time conflicts with my schedule, or Im busy right now , maybe tomorrow ,

but either way , you either fly and help because you love the hobby or or you fly and help because you want the money ,

one lends itself to promotion (love of the hobby)
one lends itself to exclusivity (those who can afford it )

in business terms , you can charge yourself out of the market , either in club membership , or in pilots who were instructed for the good of the sport who will in turn instruct for the the same reason.

whats next , will you charge for your time spent here advising and helping new folks also ????

its all in the picture when you start where does it end ??

Highlander



Here is my first post , compare what I said with what crasem says that I said !!!!!


and then ?????

Integrity is everthing

No where did I state anything about where I think money should be made , it is from the spending aspect and what I would expect should I PAY .

Highlander
Old 04-25-2003, 06:07 PM
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Highlander I was wrong I mistook your post for one made by t34pilot.

However I still stand by my statement that you are drawing conclusions about allowing paid instructors that are 100% wrong.

I also take acception to your statement that Free instruction works!! If it did there would be no discussion.

Perhaps it is you that should look beneath the superficial arguements and see what is beneath .
Sounds like you might be a little paranoid.

If your club doesn't want or need to have optional instructiors then don't

If another club does who are you or anybody else for that matter to tell them no.


This was about getting the AMA to remove a restriction which would allow clubs to do this if they wanted to. It became a moral issue to some a matter of greed to others etc... Crazy...

BTW where you the one who was going to lobby the AMA agianst it? I didn't look and was just courious
Old 04-25-2003, 06:22 PM
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Crashem,,

I accept that you made a mistake ,there have been many posts and many views stated, it is understandable.

You are correct I made it a point to let all know that I will be contacting the AMA ,and expressing my opinion of the matter.

I have also made the suggestion that anyone who has a firm point of view should contact their district reps , and express it .

this disscussion is fine , but it really solves very little , posts are made mis read ,misinterpreted, and mis applied , the only real way of either side of this debate prevailing is thru direct communication AMA, the initiative for this comes from the first post to this thread , AMA has been contacted according to that post , if it is all they get then a true cross section cannot be determined by them.

Highlander
Old 04-25-2003, 07:09 PM
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Babblings of the Highlander:>>>>"Free instuction has worked for how long ??????? actually the question is not whether free instruction works, that has been proven for many years the question is will paid instruction work ? "
<<<<<<<<

Did the first of anything really work well? I don't live in a cave, don't have a buggy, and I didn't have to fly a Wright Flier for 41 years. Take something refine it and build. Kinda' like society.

>>>>>>>>>> more babbling: ">>>>even though there are Instuction schools now in existence ,those who developed such schools did not ask that AMA support promote or even provide an Insurance for them , they like every other business put in the sweat ,money ,and effort , and started a business they bought or leased land developed a runway and buildings opened their doors and began , they do not have clubs capturing new members for them to bleed money from but through diligence hard work and customer satisfaction have made a go of it.

It is obvious from the proponents of this thread that they want the business handed to them ,supported by the AMA which Im sure will be an advertising bonus to them ,along with clubs supplying them with a never ending stream of new money ,
<<<<<<<<<<

I take a personal exception to the above. Please read Beginners Forum, Thread "Paid Flying Lessons" post #118. Can you match it Mr. High and Mighty.

>>>>>>"so far through all of this discussion, I have not heard one person ask why the insurance program is set up the way it is,nor have I heard one of the proponents explain why it is set up the way it is Im sure that there is a reason, and probly a very simple one , so since I have not heard it explained from any angle , I will be contacting AMA to find out .
<<<<<<<<

Very good. It's about time someone found out something.

Oh Boy, we have another GREAT INFORMER with the one and ONLY answer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"I have heard this presented as the same as golf ,tennis ,and many other SPORTS, and in that is the difference , this on the club level is a HOBBY. "
<<<<<<<<<<

To those that do things like TOC (now gone but maybe ...?) Top Gun, and all the great events such, this ACCORDING TO THE ALMIGHTY HIGHLANDER, is a HOBBY??

Sir, you may decide for yourself what anything may be, however I too live in this world and I categorize for me, the realm of RC model aviation as both a RECREATION and a SPORT at any level. So define as you please for YOU. I can speak for myself.
Old 04-25-2003, 09:42 PM
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As to paid instruction solving the 'overwhelming' newbie problem (and I wouldn't consider that a 'problem' since we need beginners to survive), ask yourself this. If you are burned out and don't want to instruct, would the incentive of cash be enough to start instructing, and do a better job than the guys that do it for free? How much cash would it take?
Old 04-25-2003, 09:58 PM
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Originally posted by Flyfalcons
As to paid instruction solving the 'overwhelming' newbie problem (and I wouldn't consider that a 'problem' since we need beginners to survive), ask yourself this. If you are burned out and don't want to instruct, would the incentive of cash be enough to start instructing, and do a better job than the guys that do it for free? How much cash would it take?
No I would not instruct any more, free or paid. I have reached the point of no patience and it is not fair to the student to get an old foggy with an attitude.

Dan
Old 04-26-2003, 01:51 AM
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Ryan,
No, but it may eliminate those that are "just passing through" or are "kinda interested" about R/C. This would mean the instructor can devote more of his time and energy to serious students and raise the 5% that pinball mentioned and to 15% or so.
Also, I'm wondering how many new AMA members there really are. I have a feeling the same number are going in than are coming out. I'm going to contact Dave Matthews, Dist II VP and see if he has any statistics on the retention rate after 2 years and 5 years.
Regards,
Jon
Old 04-26-2003, 02:16 AM
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So what if those 'kinda interested' guys turn into 'really interested' ones after they learn to fly? You're advocating turning away guys who are not entirely sure that RC flying is for them, which is probably around 50% of the guys that I instruct.

And for the 'motivating them to learn because they're paying for the time', there are many people who are very motivated but are going to take longer to learn than others. That motivation will turn into frustration if the person is taking longer than average.
Old 04-26-2003, 02:51 AM
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Ryan,
No one is turning anyone away. The original proposal doesn't replace free instruction: it was for paid instruction to be an OPTION, covered under AMA.
I'm an industrial engineer and the definition of that field is: Maximizing the use of scarce resources.
In my case the scarce resource is my time and I want to maximize the use of it. The OPTION of charging for instruction would tend to eliminate people coming to me that weren't serious, which will allow me to work with those that are really interested. EVERYONE still has the option of either paying or finding free instruction. If no one comes to me, fine, I don't need the money, I'd give it to the club for activities, etc.
Like I said in a previous post, maybe it's different in Washington.
As for me, I'm flying turbines this year so I'll be a student again, which will be a nice change.
Regards,
Jon

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