What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
04-05-2009, 10:52 PM
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What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
A remarkable thread in another forum mutated into this very question ; what if you crash and hit a parked airplane. Are you finacially responsible ? Would the AMA insurance cover the damage ? Would your homeowners insurance cover the damage ? Or is it just too bad for the poor soul who's plane you destroyed?
My position was that it is your responsibility. It was my position that your homeowners insurance or the AMA insurance would cover you since you damaged/destroyed someone elses property. The other party in this argument insisted it was not covered by any insurance and that no reasonable person would expect me to compensate the owner regardless of the value of the model destroyed by my crash.
I found this position remarkable, in fact unbelievable.
What are your opinions of this situation ?
My position was that it is your responsibility. It was my position that your homeowners insurance or the AMA insurance would cover you since you damaged/destroyed someone elses property. The other party in this argument insisted it was not covered by any insurance and that no reasonable person would expect me to compensate the owner regardless of the value of the model destroyed by my crash.
I found this position remarkable, in fact unbelievable.
What are your opinions of this situation ?
04-05-2009, 11:01 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
If you crash into someones car, picture window, their head, or their airplane you are responsible.
I think it is rather stupid to argue your not[:@]
I think it is rather stupid to argue your not[:@]
04-05-2009, 11:20 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
Lets not confuse 'you' as the crasher being liable for damages to the crashee's possesions
with what one insurance company or another says you have insurance for.
I think we all can agree
that if you crash your plane into and damage someone elses property
(house window, car dent, Decapitated Lawn Gnome, hobby equipment),
you have to pay for the damages you caused.... or go to court to have a judge decide how much if anything you pay <damage you are liable for>.
Whether or not you have liability insurance that will cover your liability for those damages is another thing altogether.
Are you finacially responsible ? Of course you are
Would the AMA insurance cover the damage ? I would say yes (but crash details are the clincher)
Would your homeowners insurance cover the damage ? depends on your HO policy, maybe, maybe not
Or is it just too bad for the poor soul who's plane you destroyed? Oh, you own him, make no mistake about that. Of course he can file a suit against you for the damage you caused if you dont pay him. However, if you have no insurance and you are broke, having the court say you owe him money and him actually getting money are different things
The 'acceptance of risk' angle is a matter of who has the slickest lawyer.
wow
yeah, your unbelievatude is warranted for this one
with what one insurance company or another says you have insurance for.
I think we all can agree
that if you crash your plane into and damage someone elses property
(house window, car dent, Decapitated Lawn Gnome, hobby equipment),
you have to pay for the damages you caused.... or go to court to have a judge decide how much if anything you pay <damage you are liable for>.
Whether or not you have liability insurance that will cover your liability for those damages is another thing altogether.
Are you finacially responsible ? Of course you are
Would the AMA insurance cover the damage ? I would say yes (but crash details are the clincher)
Would your homeowners insurance cover the damage ? depends on your HO policy, maybe, maybe not
Or is it just too bad for the poor soul who's plane you destroyed? Oh, you own him, make no mistake about that. Of course he can file a suit against you for the damage you caused if you dont pay him. However, if you have no insurance and you are broke, having the court say you owe him money and him actually getting money are different things
The 'acceptance of risk' angle is a matter of who has the slickest lawyer.
The other party in this argument insisted it was not covered by any insurance and that no reasonable person would expect me to compensate the owner regardless of the value of the model destroyed by my crash.
I found this position remarkable, in fact unbelievable.
I found this position remarkable, in fact unbelievable.
yeah, your unbelievatude is warranted for this one
04-05-2009, 11:20 PM
#4
RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
I say normally, you pay your nickle and you take your chances. I do not think there should be any coverage for what happens to equipment from the runway on out. If I nail your plane while it is parked in the pits....that does present an ugly situation. I would have a tough time [personally] taking responsibility for a $10,000 plane that I just totalled in a no-fly zone. I would hope that this is covered by insurance. If not, I can see why the local "Big Bird" field is an exclusive club.
In other motor sports, it's just "tough sh^t", no matter what.
04-06-2009, 01:07 AM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
Pilotfighter: As a retired aircraft mechanic from Horizon Airlines, hitting a full scale parked or moving aircraft you hope that your home will sell for enough money to repair the plane without having to loose your wife, kids, and clothing you have on. My question is: What would someone be thinking to fly a model near full size aircraft in the first place. A big red flag should go up in anyones mind that this is the last place to fly a model. And yes, I know there are people flying models at active airports around the country, but this does not mean it is a good judgement call. I just shutter to think if a model hitting one of Horizon Dash 8-400 aircraft. The FAA would be really interested in talking to the model pilot besides the owner of the hit plane.
04-06-2009, 01:26 AM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: PilotFighter
A remarkable thread in another forum mutated into this very question ; what if you crash and hit a parked airplane. Are you finacially responsible ? Would the AMA insurance cover the damage ? Would your homeowners insurance cover the damage ? Or is it just too bad for the poor soul who's plane you destroyed?
My position was that it is your responsibility.
A remarkable thread in another forum mutated into this very question ; what if you crash and hit a parked airplane. Are you finacially responsible ? Would the AMA insurance cover the damage ? Would your homeowners insurance cover the damage ? Or is it just too bad for the poor soul who's plane you destroyed?
My position was that it is your responsibility.
It was my position that your homeowners insurance or the AMA insurance would cover you since you damaged/destroyed someone elses property.
AMA no, if the parked airplane is model airplane, which I presumed until I saw the post from AERORICH. See AMA Doc 501-L, Exclusion S on p. 8 of 34
Abel
04-06-2009, 01:44 AM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
It was another model, not a real airplane.
Wow, I just read that exclusion. Its actually doc 500-L , page 8 of 34, paragraph S.
Holy Cow !
Wow, I just read that exclusion. Its actually doc 500-L , page 8 of 34, paragraph S.
Holy Cow !
04-06-2009, 01:53 AM
#8
RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
Common sense would dictate that if your property causes damage to someone
elses property you are libel, and your insur be it home or auto are in the case
of a model AMA should pay if you have no other insurance to cover the loss.
Also I think in the case of a model you have to be operating it to be libel at least
thats what I would think, But if you loan someone your car and they wreck in to
someone you would be the first one they come after even if you had nothing to
do with the accdent.
elses property you are libel, and your insur be it home or auto are in the case
of a model AMA should pay if you have no other insurance to cover the loss.
Also I think in the case of a model you have to be operating it to be libel at least
thats what I would think, But if you loan someone your car and they wreck in to
someone you would be the first one they come after even if you had nothing to
do with the accdent.
04-06-2009, 07:22 AM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
The only time you might collect on AMA's insurance would be because of an accident due to interference that occurred during a sanctioned event that was the direct result from an impound mistake that caused the interference.
Key word "might"...a key word for all liability insurances as well for those that postulate hypothetically to make irrelevant points.
Otherwise, in the end, it will be a civil matter that will have to be "duked" out between the two parties with endlessly variable actions and outcomes...
Key word "might"...a key word for all liability insurances as well for those that postulate hypothetically to make irrelevant points.
Otherwise, in the end, it will be a civil matter that will have to be "duked" out between the two parties with endlessly variable actions and outcomes...
04-06-2009, 09:26 AM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
Abel
wow, good find on the pdf 500-L.s
Guess he's gonna have to cover the damages to did to that $10000 model
out of his checking account.
If you wrecked my $100 plane, I'd let you off for $40 and a whole lotta lil chocolate donuts
but if you smashed my 1/2A 049 plane.... I will demand the entire $5 cost of materials [8D]
wow, good find on the pdf 500-L.s
Guess he's gonna have to cover the damages to did to that $10000 model
out of his checking account.
If you wrecked my $100 plane, I'd let you off for $40 and a whole lotta lil chocolate donuts
but if you smashed my 1/2A 049 plane.... I will demand the entire $5 cost of materials [8D]
04-06-2009, 10:35 AM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
but if you smashed my 1/2A 049 plane.... I will demand the entire $5 cost of materials [8D]
but if you smashed my 1/2A 049 plane.... I will demand the entire $5 cost of materials [8D]
04-06-2009, 01:05 PM
#12
RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
PF, like any liability situation, if you are sued, you hire a lawyer and it gets turned over to the insurance companies to either settle or go to court and face the consequences.
Insurance companies are not going to pay unless they deem it in their best interests to do so. That is why lawsuits are filed and then the legal types either settle or the court does so.
There is nothing ever presented on this forum, reference the legal world, that is settled here, is cut and dried by some written words, and/or will an outcome be the same in any two events. Even exclusions can be overridden.
So settlement begins with, "Is it better for ME to pay the claim or go to court with it?" That is the first step, and the one doing the damage has to take it from there, if the one suffering the damage has not already done so.
Insurance companies are not going to pay unless they deem it in their best interests to do so. That is why lawsuits are filed and then the legal types either settle or the court does so.
There is nothing ever presented on this forum, reference the legal world, that is settled here, is cut and dried by some written words, and/or will an outcome be the same in any two events. Even exclusions can be overridden.
So settlement begins with, "Is it better for ME to pay the claim or go to court with it?" That is the first step, and the one doing the damage has to take it from there, if the one suffering the damage has not already done so.
04-09-2009, 07:59 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: combatpigg
So then the bottom line is that when I see a plane in the pits or on the flight line that I can't afford to replace.....I should pack it in?
So then the bottom line is that when I see a plane in the pits or on the flight line that I can't afford to replace.....I should pack it in?
I can only suppose you drive...and if you are in a State that requires mandatory liability insurance the minimum coverage would certainly be less than the cost of a new Mercedes. [X(]
But if you are in a state that doesn't require minimum liability then you might be so scared you couldn't possibly drive... if you are seriously questioning what to do.
04-09-2009, 10:32 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
CP
well, that really is a question of how much HomeOwners insurance you have to cover that crash
regardless that AMA insurance wont cover any remaining liability$ of said crash
The op kinda was talking regardless of insurance coverage:
If Crasher had HO insurance that would cover such a crash,
would there actually be any Crasher property damage liability$ for that insurance to pay,
or are the opponants of the OP corect that the Crashee cant say the Crasher is financially responsible for property damage of the Crashee's property
Whether the Crasher has insurance or not has no bearing on if he is liable$ for the damages (that the crasher may or maynot have liability insurance to cover it)
So then the bottom line is that when I see a plane in the pits or on the flight line that I can't afford to replace.....I should pack it in?
regardless that AMA insurance wont cover any remaining liability$ of said crash
The op kinda was talking regardless of insurance coverage:
If Crasher had HO insurance that would cover such a crash,
would there actually be any Crasher property damage liability$ for that insurance to pay,
or are the opponants of the OP corect that the Crashee cant say the Crasher is financially responsible for property damage of the Crashee's property
Whether the Crasher has insurance or not has no bearing on if he is liable$ for the damages (that the crasher may or maynot have liability insurance to cover it)
04-09-2009, 10:33 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
Without getting pulled into the value discussions here, the technical answer to your question is:
1) It is very likely that your homeowners or tenants liability insurance would pay. To be absolutely certain, however, you should confirm that your liability insurance covers model aircraft activities by talking to your insurance agent. Policies differ from company to company.
Having said this, companies don't like to see a lot of small claims, so you should consider whether the amount of damage justifies turning the claim in. A history of nickel and dime claims will likely lead to a cancellation notice.
2) AMA insurance will not pay. Model to model damage is not covered, and it doesn't matter whether the model is in motion or at rest. It is mostly irrelevant, however, as typical personal liability insurance limits you have probably cover even the most expensive models.
1) It is very likely that your homeowners or tenants liability insurance would pay. To be absolutely certain, however, you should confirm that your liability insurance covers model aircraft activities by talking to your insurance agent. Policies differ from company to company.
Having said this, companies don't like to see a lot of small claims, so you should consider whether the amount of damage justifies turning the claim in. A history of nickel and dime claims will likely lead to a cancellation notice.
2) AMA insurance will not pay. Model to model damage is not covered, and it doesn't matter whether the model is in motion or at rest. It is mostly irrelevant, however, as typical personal liability insurance limits you have probably cover even the most expensive models.
04-09-2009, 11:29 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: pilott28
Model to model damage is not covered
Model to model damage is not covered
A light bulb turns on over Blue_Sky’s head. [sm=50_50.gif]
So all these years gone by when I taxied out with everyone panicking, hurried landings, general chaos, mass packing of gear, long caravans of cars and vans heading out without me in dust clouds for lunch at Denny’s wasn’t the result of my fellow club members not wanting to be shamed by my awesome flying skills? [sm=tongue_smile.gif]
04-09-2009, 11:41 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: Blue_Sky
Hmmm... No model to model coverage!!?
A light bulb turns on over Blue_Sky’s head. [sm=50_50.gif]
So all these years gone by when I taxied out with everyone panicking, hurried landings, general chaos, mass packing of gear, long caravans of cars and vans heading out without me in dust clouds for lunch at Denny’s wasn’t the result of my fellow club members not wanting to be shamed by my awesome flying skills? [sm=tongue_smile.gif]
ORIGINAL: pilott28
Model to model damage is not covered
Model to model damage is not covered
A light bulb turns on over Blue_Sky’s head. [sm=50_50.gif]
So all these years gone by when I taxied out with everyone panicking, hurried landings, general chaos, mass packing of gear, long caravans of cars and vans heading out without me in dust clouds for lunch at Denny’s wasn’t the result of my fellow club members not wanting to be shamed by my awesome flying skills? [sm=tongue_smile.gif]
That explains a few things for me as well...
04-10-2009, 05:59 AM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
ORIGINAL: Blue_Sky
Hmmm... No model to model coverage!!?
A light bulb turns on over Blue_Sky’s head. [sm=50_50.gif]
So all these years gone by when I taxied out with everyone panicking, hurried landings, general chaos, mass packing of gear, long caravans of cars and vans heading out without me in dust clouds for lunch at Denny’s wasn’t the result of my fellow club members not wanting to be shamed by my awesome flying skills? [sm=tongue_smile.gif]
ORIGINAL: pilott28
Model to model damage is not covered
Model to model damage is not covered
A light bulb turns on over Blue_Sky’s head. [sm=50_50.gif]
So all these years gone by when I taxied out with everyone panicking, hurried landings, general chaos, mass packing of gear, long caravans of cars and vans heading out without me in dust clouds for lunch at Denny’s wasn’t the result of my fellow club members not wanting to be shamed by my awesome flying skills? [sm=tongue_smile.gif]
04-10-2009, 07:17 AM
#20
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
I have always had the belief that I'm responsible
for anything I put into motion. If I have insurance
to cover whatever it is I made move and cause damage,
good for me.
If not, I'm responsible for the compensation.
Roby
for anything I put into motion. If I have insurance
to cover whatever it is I made move and cause damage,
good for me.
If not, I'm responsible for the compensation.
Roby
04-10-2009, 04:28 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
In my opinion just going to the flying field means I'm assuming a certain risk. I know that the pilots will range from noobs to average Joe weekend warrriors to IMAC experts. The planes will range from 15 year old scratch builts to poorly designed ARFs to well designed ARFs to exquisitely crafted and maintained $15,000 jets. I will know that none of the pilots are licensed, none of the aircraft or components are certified and there are no required airworthiness inspections. Also, some club fields have the pits 100 feet from the runway while other clubs have the pits almost next to the runway. Considering all that, how can I expect some 19 year old kid who makes 10 bucks an hour to pay for my 10K jet if something goes wrong and he crashes his 200 dollar trainer into it?
04-10-2009, 07:47 PM
#23
RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
I think the fact that the AMA does not cover models that are parked on the ground when hit by another model is wrong I can understand not covering
mid air crashes as it would be to diffcult to determine fault.
mid air crashes as it would be to diffcult to determine fault.
04-10-2009, 08:16 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
So I guess when my buddy's kid flew my SX3 into the side of my car then flipped it on to the roof and the prop beat the roof into submission, this was not going to be covered by the AMA. Only car in the parking lot, by the way.[sm=spinnyeyes.gif]
04-10-2009, 09:09 PM
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RE: What if you crash and hit a parked airplane
Ira-
AMA provides insurance primarily to site owners, and that is directly mission related - it promotes model aviation by helping us obtain and retain places to fly. Personal insurance provided by AMA is, IMHO, fluff. AMA isn't The Mommy. Provide for your own fiscal security; that is a personal responsibility.
air mail rcu-
Not all property is excluded by the AMA liability insurance. This thread has only brought up an exclusion relating to model airplanes. Why guess? The liability policy(ies) is(are) on the AMA web site.
Abel
AMA provides insurance primarily to site owners, and that is directly mission related - it promotes model aviation by helping us obtain and retain places to fly. Personal insurance provided by AMA is, IMHO, fluff. AMA isn't The Mommy. Provide for your own fiscal security; that is a personal responsibility.
air mail rcu-
Not all property is excluded by the AMA liability insurance. This thread has only brought up an exclusion relating to model airplanes. Why guess? The liability policy(ies) is(are) on the AMA web site.
Abel