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AMA District X Special Election

Old 03-23-2010, 12:49 AM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election


ORIGINAL: cj_rumley

Well, you have said previously in this forum IIRC is that the efforts to build a regional site in CA was killed by some tree huggers and their concerns over the welfare of some obscure species of toads that breed in vernal pools put the kibosh on that plan. Do I need to dig that up from the forum archives for you?

Perhaps you should scour the forum archives if only to refresh your memory on what I actually wrote. I never mentioned tree huggers, toads or vernal ponds. I did write that the California State Department of Fish and Game ultimately did the project in over concerns of potential habitat for a small fish (as I recall, I may have the species wrong) that has not been seen outside of the Sierra proper, some 75 miles or so away.

How that impacts the chances of a new project to build a District flying site is that it has placed a heavier burden on any future projects since it would be viewed by many on the EC, as well as the membership, as good money after bad. The first time around was approved by a narrow margin and was only just barely popular, especially outside the District. So due to the way that the first project proceeded and ended it has raised the bar even higher for the consideration of future projects.

I have been making the point that I am not sure that proposing another effort demonstrates a full grasp of what happened the first time around and how that impacts the chances for a second time around. Sort of a learning from our mistakes kind of thing.
Old 03-23-2010, 01:56 AM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election

Okay, fishies, tadpoles, close enuf for gumint work.
Old 03-23-2010, 08:45 AM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election


ORIGINAL: cj_rumley

Okay, fishies, tadpoles, close enuf for gumint work.
And not just a bunch of "tree huggers" but an actual government agency as well.
Old 03-23-2010, 12:59 PM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election


ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R


ORIGINAL: cj_rumley

Okay, fishies, tadpoles, close enuf for gumint work.
And not just a bunch of ''tree huggers'' but an actual government agency as well.
An actual government agency, then. An agency with an environmental issue particular to one site. Still quite a different reason for the demise of the previous attempt to build a regional flying site that you represented in your retort to Lawrence. Here's refresher for you

Regardless, I stand by my opinion that your desire to build a District flying site is an inefficient use of the time of the DVP, is not financially viable, and represents a clear lack of understanding of the how and what of the previous effort.
Old 03-23-2010, 01:50 PM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election

What can a DVP / AVP do for me [Joe Average AMA guy], that I can't already do for myself?.....

Maybe I've been missing out on something GREAT after ALL THESE YEARS?
Old 03-23-2010, 02:59 PM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

What can a DVP / AVP do for me [Joe Average AMA guy], that I can't already do for myself?.....

Maybe I've been missing out on something GREAT after ALL THESE YEARS?
Your right, we haven't seen/heard from anyone from AMA in so long I'm surprised that they still know Hawaii is in District X
Old 03-23-2010, 03:11 PM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

What can a DVP / AVP do for me [Joe Average AMA guy], that I can't already do for myself?.....

Maybe I've been missing out on something GREAT after ALL THESE YEARS?

Well, fer Goodness' sakes, CP. I do feel so sorry for you. You need to file for something or other due to the mistreatment you have received.
Shucks, MAN, there are two AVPs from the Houston area. They do get to write on the District Web site wnen they want to. Man, they have those pretty shirts to wear, and they work hard reporting on the web site. Why, one of them did an article as recent as last Oct. 01, '09, and the other did one on Nov. 02,'09. Lots of work and performance in all that labor! OTOH, they only can write off their modeling at Volunteer rates, unlike the Director (DVP) that gets Business rates. Breaks my heart.

I do feel sorry for all that have missed out on such dedication and seeing those pretty shirts at some of the local events. Really Sad! [sm=wink_smile.gif]
Old 03-23-2010, 03:17 PM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election


ORIGINAL: cj_rumley


An actual government agency, then. An agency with an environmental issue particular to one site. Still quite a different reason for the demise of the previous attempt to build a regional flying site that you represented in your retort to Lawrence. Here's refresher for you

Regardless, I stand by my opinion that your desire to build a District flying site is an inefficient use of the time of the DVP, is not financially viable, and represents a clear lack of understanding of the how and what of the previous effort.
How so?? My point is that the circumstances do the loss of the first District site have changed the game when it comes to a new one. The AMA EC will look at the financial investments not to mention the time required and so on. And based on the previous experience is very unlikely to approve this concept.

It's called "learning from the past". You have no doubt heard the quote "Those that ignore the past are doomed to repeat it"?
Old 03-23-2010, 03:22 PM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election


ORIGINAL: Hircflyer


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

What can a DVP / AVP do for me [Joe Average AMA guy], that I can't already do for myself?.....

Maybe I've been missing out on something GREAT after ALL THESE YEARS?
Your right, we haven't seen/heard from anyone from AMA in so long I'm surprised that they still know Hawaii is in District X

Here is the AVP in Hawaii, Wayne Hamada:

http://dwp.bigplanet.com/ama10/distr...ndstaff&UID=51

He's just across the island from you. Drop him a line and tell him you wold like to have him drop by sometime.


Old 03-23-2010, 03:49 PM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election

ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R


How so?? My point is that the circumstances do the loss of the first District site have changed the game when it comes to a new one. The AMA EC will look at the financial investments not to mention the time required and so on. And based on the previous experience is very unlikely to approve this concept.

It's called ''learning from the past''. You have no doubt heard the quote ''Those that ignore the past are doomed to repeat it''?

I have no problem with those statements.

15 years ago, a club was losing its site. 14 years ago someone stepped up, bought 100 acres of prime flat farmland and proceeded to allow the club to start out building a flying site. 2 years later the club bought 30 of those acres at same price the benefactor paid for it.
7 years later the club received a number of new members. Within a year later they got themselves voted onto the Board. Under applied pressure from the benefactor the club purchased an additional 30 acres, and changed to another banker.
Now some 5+/- years later the club is on a downhill slide in reference to administration, safety, overall efficiency and memberhip.

I would expect the same from any special flying site that AMA had a hand in. It is not the responsibility of the entire AMA membership to be responsible for the administration, costs, maintenance and overall expenses of some distant flying site. If D-X wants a District flying site, let THEM do it.

I've made my contribution to flying sites. [sm=48_48.gif]
Old 03-23-2010, 03:51 PM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election


ORIGINAL: Hossfly


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

What can a DVP / AVP do for me [Joe Average AMA guy], that I can't already do for myself?.....

Maybe I've been missing out on something GREAT after ALL THESE YEARS?

Well, fer Goodness' sakes, CP. I do feel so sorry for you. You need to file for something or other due to the mistreatment you have received.
Shucks, MAN, there are two AVPs from the Houston area. They do get to write on the District Web site wnen they want to. Man, they have those pretty shirts to wear, and they work hard reporting on the web site. Why, one of them did an article as recent as last Oct. 01, '09, and the other did one on Nov. 02,'09. Lots of work and performance in all that labor! OTOH, they only can write off their modeling at Volunteer rates, unlike the Director (DVP) that gets Business rates. Breaks my heart.

I do feel sorry for all that have missed out on such dedication and seeing those pretty shirts at some of the local events. Really Sad! [sm=wink_smile.gif]

Hoss, if I hear you correctly...these guys serve more of a ceremonial purpose on their home turf than anything we can actually get some use out of?

I don't know if that's totally true, because one of our local AVPs can "one flip start" my Fox Combat Specials every time.....
Old 03-23-2010, 04:01 PM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election


ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R


How so?? My point is that the circumstances do the loss of the first District site have changed the game when it comes to a new one. The AMA EC will look at the financial investments not to mention the time required and so on. And based on the previous experience is very unlikely to approve this concept.
You don't give the EC much credit for being capable of considering what went wrong with the previous experience that might be avoided during another shot at it. Your expectation of them is about on par with what I would expect from a lab rat that got an electric shock for pushing the wrong button. Not saying you are wrong about that......... but I think few members of the present EC were there back then to push the wrong buttons.

It's called ''learning from the past''. You have no doubt heard the quote ''Those that ignore the past are doomed to repeat it''?
Yeah, that does ring a bell. Still, after placing 2nd in the SE Asian War Games, our leaders in Washington persist in getting us involved in stupid wars.
Old 03-23-2010, 04:58 PM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election

I spoke with several EC members at the AMA show in Ontario in January. I specifically asked about Mr. Tougas' idea of a District X or West Coast flying site. None that I talked to indicated that there was any chance of it happening.
Old 03-23-2010, 05:02 PM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

I don't know if that's totally true, because one of our local AVPs can ''one flip start'' my Fox Combat Specials every time.....
WOW! Better not let anyone run away with him. Finger starting a Fox Combat, or any combat engine, is something to be proud of.
He's a KEEPER!
Old 03-24-2010, 08:37 AM
  #90  
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election

Bill,
I also spoke with EC members at Ontario and got just the opposite response. They were attentive and open to the idea and willing to consider it. I understand that you don't support it for the reasons you've stated, that's fine. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this subject.

There are 28,000 members in D10 that pay $1,500,000 a year in dues. If the sample of people I spoke to over the last year is indicative of the District as a whole there is wide spread support. They want something they can point to that their dues provide them. A flying site within a 2 day drive of everyone in the continental portion of D10 can provide that to them. Imagine a field that is dedicated to hosting competitions. A field that could bring thousands of D10 members together for fly-ins and fun flies. A field where we could honor the modelers in D10 that have made great contributions to our sport.

I've been portrayed as both a pie-eyed optimist in this thread and unwilling to learn from the past. Both couldn't be further from the truth. I'm an Engineer and I believe a fairly pragmatic person. As far as learning from the past I do that all the time in all areas of my life. What I don't take away from the previous effort was that it failed therefore it will always fail. We look at why it failed and devise a plan to avoid the same pitfalls.

That is the kind of Vice President I will be for District X.

Lawrence Tougas
Candidate for AMA District X Vice President
http://ama-district-x-election.blogspot.com/
Old 03-24-2010, 09:40 AM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election

ORIGINAL: ltougas

Mike,
I also spoke with EC members at Ontario and got just the opposite response. They were attentive and open to the idea and willing to consider it. I understand that you don't support it for the reasons you've stated, that's fine. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this subject.
If you were addressing me, my name is Bill, and I agree, we will have to just let it lay with regard to whether or not we agree it is a good idea.


Imagine a field
Imagination is fine, but as always, the Devil is in the details. So let's say that conceptually the idea has merit, now let's look at the fine print.

How will it be funded? AMA National or private fundraising within the District?

Have you given any preliminary thought to possible locations? A 2-day drive covers a very large portion of the District. For instance San Diego to Logan, Utah is only a 13 hour drive (830 miles) and Eureka, CA to Tucson, AZ is right around 19 hours, putting it at about that 2-day number. Point being that in fact almost the entire District can be driven across in less than 2-days. So do you have maybe a somewhat more focused idea on where might be a good idea?

What type of organization do you see as required to acquire the site and then do the permitting, bidding, and construction management of the site?

Once built how will the site be maintained and by whom? Do you envision permanent staff, volunteers or a combination? Who will pay for that and how?

I know that you have said that you will put together a group to study these questions, but surely if this is a major theme for your campaign you have given it more thought than simply saying you will form a committee to study it. I am interested in how detailed your consideration has been to this particular point.

I am also curious if you have given consideration to seeing if you can access some of the AMA records relative to the process that was used the last time to see if there is anything useful there or if you feel it is better to start with a clean sheet of paper?


Old 03-24-2010, 02:33 PM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election

Imagination is fine...
I think it is much more than fine I think it is essential which I believe gets to the heart of our discussion. Imagination is what gets us thinking outside of the box. Its what causes to ask what might be, not what is sure to be. Nothing of great significance is accomplished by marginalizing imagination.

How will it be funded?
As I have said several times before I believe not enough of a District’s members dues are spent within the District so I would push for the project to be funded by the AMA.

Location?
When I said a 2 day drive I was referring to 6-8 hour days on the road. Maybe when I was 20 I could drive 19 hours at a stretch but not anymore.

…surely if this is a major theme for your campaign you have given it more thought than simply saying you will form a committee to study it.
I have and please don’t call me Shirley. Sorry I couldn’t resist. Part of being a leader is not being entirely autocratic. While I have some criteria I think should apply which I’ve listed previously as;

"I would leave that (location of flying site) to a work group of District X members to consider the issue. That being said I would imagine that factors such as the geographic, and population centers of the district along with the price of land, and proximity of commercial air service, and accommodations would all be factors."

I would add to that list a local city or county that wants us there. One that would welcome the revenue that a steady stream of AMA members would bring. I know you don’t like the idea of leaving it up to a small group to choose the site but I think it is essential.

What type of organization do you see as required to acquire the site and then do the permitting, bidding, and construction management of the site?
I think the Working Team that chooses location would also work on design and logistics.

I don’t think any of these issues are insurmountable. I believe we just have to decide that we want to do it and move forward.

So, if you are a District X member and like the idea of an AMA flying site in our District please vote for me.

Lawrence Tougas
AMA 232
Candidate for AMA District X Vice President

http://ama-district-x-election.blogspot.com/
Old 03-24-2010, 11:57 PM
  #93  
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election


ORIGINAL: ltougas
if you are a District X member and like the idea of an AMA flying site in our District please vote for me.


Thank you Mr. Tougas that makes it quite clear that this national flying site issue is indeed your chief campain issue and you are expecting 100% AMA funding then as a voting district ten member I will be forced to vote aginst you.

John
Old 03-25-2010, 10:22 AM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election

John,
Although the flying site is an important issue with me my primary one is helping the clubs in District X find and keep their fields.

I understand your feelings about the flying site. When you refer to the financing as 100% AMA funding I look at it somewhat differently. Currently only 1% of your dues are spent directly in your district. That means only $0.58 of the $58 dollars an adult member under 65 pays in dues are spent in his district. I think we should look at that ratio and decide if it is serving the membership well. If it is not we should address it. I think developing a long term capital asset in our district would be a good use of our dues.

In any event I respect your right to disagree and wish you the best,

Lawrence Tougas
AMA 232
Candidate for AMA District X Vice President

http://ama-district-x-election.blogspot.com/
Old 03-25-2010, 10:49 AM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election

"That means only $0.58 of the $58 dollars an adult member under 65 pays in dues are spent in his district."


LT,
just to clear up the math,
it has been established by an AMA rep that $18 of that $58 is solely for the magazine:
He said its $18(MA) + $40(all other AMA activity),
so please use the $40 AMA financial model in your points of discussion regarding AMA activities other than MA
Old 03-25-2010, 09:38 PM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election

Kid-

Trying to understand this high finance stuff.............

Is Lawrence wrong because the district X member is getting 1% ($.40) of only $40 of what he sent to Muncie back in his district, or
is he wrong because the district X member is getting back in his district ($0.58) which is actually 45% more than the understated 1% of what he paid to AMA?
Old 03-25-2010, 10:43 PM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election

What difference does it make?

What should make any AMA member feel entitled to get X% of anything back from the AMA besides the basic services?

I get a kick out of this campaign platform of.....[8D] Theys' lots of moola theyah and weeze gonna get some o'dat !!

Should all the districts feel entitled to have their own flying sites established now and maintained by the AMA also?
Old 03-25-2010, 11:26 PM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election

Cletus-
I'm not saying his message is wrong,
but that it would be clearer and less refutable if we dont try to see Muncie spending just $0.58 to mail 12 magazines to each guy sending $58. Put that way it dont pass the common sense test. So lets use the comptrollers figure of each member sending $40 to muncie for the organization and $18 for the magazine, and then we can talk about what % of the $40 is spent on that district.

If we did talk about what % of the $40 is for the district,
we would first knock it down to "about" $30 because we know "about" $10 is spent per head by muncie for insurance.

So what % of the non-MA non-Insurance $30 per head is spent on the district?
Does the district get more of that $30 than the PPP subsidy gets?
Does the district get more of that $30 than the scholarship program gets?
Does the district get more of that $30 than the muncie payroll gets.?
I dunno.
But without getting an accurate feel for how much of the $30 the district gets
we cant see how it fits in the scope of the other expenditures.



CP-
Without hearing potential revenue streams from regional sites or Superfields
I'm reserving my opinion on how much of a moneypit it is.
I'm sure you can understand that there may be potential to run the site in the black, but we just havent heard anything hard in that vein yet.
Old 03-26-2010, 12:06 AM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

What difference does it make?
None. It appears you got my drift.

Old 03-26-2010, 12:39 AM
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Default RE: AMA District X Special Election

KE-

The nickels and dimes don't concern me all that much. I do take passing notice of them in gross terms, as in weighing the tangible benefits I receive in return for the the $50 I pay in club dues, vs the dearth of anything tangible in return for the $58 I send to Muncie, which I do primarily to buy the right to pay dues to the club. That just seems altogether tangential to the subject of this thread, though.

One of the candidates for the open AMA D-X position seems to be naive enough to pursue an objective because it is a good thing to do, though he is getting opposition from people (OK, one in particular) because it would be a difficult thing to do. So tell me this,

Is it better to pursue an objective you believe is a good thing to do, or forget about it because doing it would be hard?

Cletus

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