RDQ & RemoteID: Appeals Court Decision
Race Day Quads / Tyler Brennan challenged the Remote ID rule in the DC Circuit Federal Appeals Court. Brennan's case was argued by Jonathan Rupprect as lead attorney. The DC Circuit published their decision and it's available at the link provided below (note 1).
In short, they lost across the board. What's interesting is when you read the opinion, it's pretty evident the court took a dim view of the filing. Here's an example of some of the rather blunt responses by the court to the arguments & filings (emphasis added is mine):
My Opinion: Unfortunately, the challenge offered a Federal Court to go on record affirming the risk drones (which for these purposes include model aircraft) pose to the public. There was a state court in Pennsylvania that explicitly stated that the size and speed of model aircraft are such that they pose a significant risk to the public (paraphrase). Now a Federal court is saying much the same. And any attorney worth their salt will easily be able to find and cite both as precedent in an injury / insurance filing. So I believe the combination of continued lack of discipline in operations, when combined with a handful of bad actors, and weak filings like this case will create a legal paper trail that can be used against others. And it's not hard to imagine that paper trail growing, with each case reinforcing and repeating the risk stated in earlier cases. Example: Non-remote ID model aircraft operating at FRIA loses link and crashes outside the land controlled by the CBO, causing damage. Attorney for the injured party (injured as in damaged property) will now have not one but two cases to show that the CBO & operators knew or should have known. They win. That creates a third case. Etc. Note 1: https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/55807FB471B60BB08525888E0051AEA6/$file/21-1087-1956978.pdf |
Originally Posted by franklin_m
(Post 12737555)
Race Day Quads / Tyler Brennan challenged the Remote ID rule in the DC Circuit Federal Appeals Court. Brennan's case was argued by Jonathan Rupprect as lead attorney. The DC Circuit published their decision and it's available at the link provided below (note 1).
In short, they lost across the board. What's interesting is when you read the opinion, it's pretty evident the court took a dim view of the filing. Here's an example of some of the rather blunt responses by the court to the arguments & filings (emphasis added is mine):
My Opinion: Unfortunately, the challenge offered a Federal Court to go on record affirming the risk drones (which for these purposes include model aircraft) pose to the public. There was a state court in Pennsylvania that explicitly stated that the size and speed of model aircraft are such that they pose a significant risk to the public (paraphrase). Now a Federal court is saying much the same. And any attorney worth their salt will easily be able to find and cite both as precedent in an injury / insurance filing. So I believe the combination of continued lack of discipline in operations, when combined with a handful of bad actors, and weak filings like this case will create a legal paper trail that can be used against others. And it's not hard to imagine that paper trail growing, with each case reinforcing and repeating the risk stated in earlier cases. Example: Non-remote ID model aircraft operating at FRIA loses link and crashes outside the land controlled by the CBO, causing damage. Attorney for the injured party (injured as in damaged property) will now have not one but two cases to show that the CBO & operators knew or should have known. They win. That creates a third case. Etc. Note 1: https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/55807FB471B60BB08525888E0051AEA6/$file/21-1087-1956978.pdf be grounded? How many AMA members actually belong to a club, 1 in 4? How many fly here and there? How many drone owners joined AMA just for the insurance? Out of the total RC population how many belong to a club, 1 in 10? This is going to wipe out RC flying. |
Why do you say that it's going to wipe out RC flying?
Compliance will likely be a small module that you can swap from plane to plane if not built into most receivers. |
Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
(Post 12737602)
Why do you say that it's going to wipe out RC flying?
Compliance will likely be a small module that you can swap from plane to plane if not built into most receivers. https://www.horizonhobby.com/blog-faa-id.html Horizon stated they planned on having Remote ID products around this September, a month from now and about a year before it goes into effect. Then nothing. I don't find anything on Horizon or anywhere else about modules for RC planes, only certain drones that already have most of the electronics, and then only hypothetically that they will be available. If you know of any source for RC planes post where they can be found or when they will be available. In any case, at some point the FAA is intent on all UAS having integrated, tamperproof Remote ID built in, such that the aircraft will not take off without it enabled. That is not possible for RC planes. All someone would have to do to defeat it is switch out whatever component it is with a regular receiver. You can't do that with drones. The FAA's definition of obsolescence (it's in the NPRM) I think is 3 years, but they can issue any rule at any time. Another point. There are open places to fly RC where it might not technically be approved but no one really cares. All that will change with Remote ID and a smart phone app for anyone to report it. Every square inch is owned or managed by someone, and all it takes is one complaint. I don't think you appreciate what a big deal this is going to be for bringing new people, or how many of the current crop of 60+ year-olds first got into RC flying other than an at AMA field. Recall your threatening post to me about the federal fines and jail time for not registering (it wasn't in the US I was talking about, incidentally). That's what RC flying has turned into. And you are a senior representative speaking on behalf of AMA. Good luck with all that. |
Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
(Post 12737602)
Why do you say that it's going to wipe out RC flying?
Compliance will likely be a small module that you can swap from plane to plane if not built into most receivers. |
2 Attachment(s)
Around the various forums the bomb has dropped.
The PDF is easier to read. |
From the linked PDF:
"7 Errant drone flights are not unusual: In 2019, the FAA alone received an average of six reports daily from people who claimed to have witnessed unauthorized drone operations. Proposed Rule, 84 Fed. Reg. at 72,455. The FAA has noted the potential use of drones for illegal activities, including “carrying and smuggling of controlled substances, illicit drugs, and other dangerous or hazardous payloads; the unlawful invasion of privacy; illegal surveillance and reconnaissance; the weaponization of [drones]; sabotaging of critical infrastructure; property theft; disruption; and harassment.” Id. at 72,454. Extremists have increasingly sought to use drones to carry out violent attacks: Terrorists killed several people by detonating a bomb carried by a drone that flew above a military parade in Yemen. Id. at 72,455 & n.34.2 The Islamic State and other terrorist organizations have reportedly modified commercially available drones so they can carry and release munitions and explosives. Id. at 72,455 & n.31.3 A would-be assassin used a drone to target then-President Nicolás Maduro in Venezuela. Id. at 72,455 & n.32.4 And British intelligence agencies uncovered a terrorist plan to fly drones into the engines of commercial airplanes as they took off from airports in the United Kingdom. Id. at 72,455 & n.33.5" Don't you all feel so much better now, knowing that criminals and terrorists will have to register their drones? :) |
Originally Posted by flyboy2610
(Post 12737731)
From the linked PDF:
"7 Errant drone flights are not unusual: In 2019, the FAA alone received an average of six reports daily from people who claimed to have witnessed unauthorized drone operations. Proposed Rule, 84 Fed. Reg. at 72,455. The FAA has noted the potential use of drones for illegal activities, including “carrying and smuggling of controlled substances, illicit drugs, and other dangerous or hazardous payloads; the unlawful invasion of privacy; illegal surveillance and reconnaissance; the weaponization of [drones]; sabotaging of critical infrastructure; property theft; disruption; and harassment.” Id. at 72,454. Extremists have increasingly sought to use drones to carry out violent attacks: Terrorists killed several people by detonating a bomb carried by a drone that flew above a military parade in Yemen. Id. at 72,455 & n.34.2 The Islamic State and other terrorist organizations have reportedly modified commercially available drones so they can carry and release munitions and explosives. Id. at 72,455 & n.31.3 A would-be assassin used a drone to target then-President Nicolás Maduro in Venezuela. Id. at 72,455 & n.32.4 And British intelligence agencies uncovered a terrorist plan to fly drones into the engines of commercial airplanes as they took off from airports in the United Kingdom. Id. at 72,455 & n.33.5" Don't you all feel so much better now, knowing that criminals and terrorists will have to register their drones? :) Exactly, this is going to have the same effect as gun control, in other words ZERO impact on those who want to use them to do harm. I like the opening line……The Drones are coming. We have already seen a massive drop in FAA registration renewals and a fair number of drone delivery ventures fail abandoned. |
Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
(Post 12737602)
Why do you say that it's going to wipe out RC flying?
Compliance will likely be a small module that you can swap from plane to plane if not built into most receivers. manufacturers, Spektrum, Futaba, Jeti, FrSky, Airtronics, etc., asking if they planed to sell Remote ID modules. Not very encouraging that none of them at present list anything at all on Remote ID. Seems just as "likely" the aftermarket will abandon that segment of the hobby and leave AMA with their monopoly. It all depends on the size of the market A guestimate of AMA members belonging to clubs, if the numbers can be trusted, is 60,000, the first 90 clubs averaging 25 members, times 2,394 clubs listed on AMA's website. Even at face value, minus those inactive/marginally active, that's a pretty small number. |
and does not factor in those with multiple club memberships...
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Nor does it represent clubs with larger membership. All 4 clubs that I have membership are 45+ active members. There will always be a core group that will maintain membership.
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It also means the other 55,000 AMA members (if even that number is accurate) won't be flying anymore unless it's sub-250 gram.
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Originally Posted by ECHO24
(Post 12737884)
It also means the other 55,000 AMA members (if even that number is accurate) won't be flying anymore unless it's sub-250 gram.
Because you don't see a market doesn't mean there won't be modules. |
The FAA was wrong to try and implement remote ID requirements before any such devices are widely available, such devices need to be available to the RC community so they can be tested before expecting
RC flyers to want to use them. |
The module issue is, in many ways, similar to the issues that were found when Spectrum first put the frequency hopping radio system on the market. There were serious issues with the surface systems, so many that they had to be taken off the market as claims came in about boats and cars being damaged or wrecked due to system issues due to insufficient testing in their rush to get their product into the market. I was a witness to such an event when a brand new scale 1980 Miss Budweiser was wrecked due to radio issues due to being used over water. The system had been range checked with the transmitter still giving an effective signal at close to 100 yards away OVER LAND. After recovering the boat, it was found the radio worked fine when range checked again, OVER LAND. Since the radio box was undamaged and could be removed from the boat, it was taken out of the now destroyed hull and taken out onto the lake on one of the chase boats. With one person operating the chase boat, a second was holding the radio box just above the water over the bow. The chase boat was backed away from the shore and out into the lake, at first with no issues. At roughly 25 yards out and 40 yards from the drivers stand, where the transmitter was being operated, the receiver started to glitch. Servos that had previously moved stop to stop now stuttered and stalled mid swing and, as the boat got further way, it got progressively worse. The result was the receivers got redesigned and, IIRC, the protocols were updated. I see the same thing happening with the modules IF they aren't given adequate R&D time before they are put on the market since planes are flown from grass, concrete, blacktop, water and snow. Some fields are surrounded with trees, others with hills or mountains so, it is possible that the modules may not work as intended
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
(Post 12737885)
modules dude, I told you this before.
Because you don't see a market doesn't mean there won't be modules. that it's "likely" modules are coming. That and $1.25 will buy you a sheet of Dollar Tree foam. Like I said, not very encouraging that not even one of the RC radio manufacturers has anything to say about Remote ID at all (other than that 1 1/2 year-old Horizon Hobby page) much less any announcement that they are working on it. This has been in the works for a long, long time. |
Makes one wonder if it’s not intentional. What is the FAA going to do if nobody makes RFID modules? Kinda hard to force people to use what doesn’t exist.
As for Hydro’s post. Who cares how well they work. The requirements are that we install one, if it doesn’t work because of poor design oh well. |
Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
(Post 12737927)
Makes one wonder if it’s not intentional. What is the FAA going to do if nobody makes RFID modules? Kinda hard to force people to use what doesn’t exist.
As for Hydro’s post. Who cares how well they work. The requirements are that we install one, if it doesn’t work because of poor design oh well. |
You have quite the imagination Hydro, I’ll give you credit for that.
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I ran across a comment that sums up where this is all headed:
"Some local RC fliers would meet down at some local soccer fields to fly our models and chew the fat. Two years ago those fields were deemed off limits for our use by the county, so says the youth soccer organization. Finger pointing in both directs. The alternative was to join a flying club, pay their membership dues, be a member in good standing after paying AMA yearly dues, and fly at a low use air strip 15 miles away. Last year that club introduced new and more restrictive rules. Electrics of up to1lb. could fly at an adjacent field to the strip, all other craft, electric over 1lb. would have to use the strip, taking turns in the order that you walked up in. Then too, flying in the adjacent field there were borders on both sides so as to not infringe on other fliers and some houses on the other side. I found it all distasteful and really sapped the fun we used to have. None of us fly FPV, always keep our craft in sight and behaved. We have been punished. I may hang it up." Last year I was flying a glider on a nearly deserted beach in Oregon. I turned north to set up for landing then turned back south. Somehow in that short time, on this deserted beach, there's now a guy with a metal detector walking north, halfway to the water right where I am set to land. Committed (a glider) I moved over toward the water and landed in the scud and foam just a few feet away from him. As I walked up the guy, all excited, said, "A drone came out of nowhere!" If I didn't spend half the year in Mexico I'd hang it up too. |
Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
(Post 12737943)
You have quite the imagination Hydro, I’ll give you credit for that.
It also shows how someone just doesn't get the fact that the FAA is going to have the final say and when the modules become available, THEY WILL BE USED AND WILL BE REQUIRED TO WORK |
It also states that the modules will be tamper proof. So I plug it in and it should do it’s thing. If the scenario that you fabricated is indeed realistic, does it not add value to joining the AMA and flying at a FRIA? Either way makes no difference to me as I will be flying ar a FRIA, been at least 10 years since I’ve flown at a place other then a club site. IMO it’s not safe to fly in an uncontrolled environment.
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Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
(Post 12737927)
Makes one wonder if it’s not intentional. What is the FAA going to do if nobody makes RFID modules? Kinda hard to force people to use what doesn’t exist.
As for Hydro’s post. Who cares how well they work. The requirements are that we install one, if it doesn’t work because of poor design oh well. which is the probably very high on the FAA agenda. |
Originally Posted by speedracerntrixie
(Post 12737957)
It also states that the modules will be tamper proof. So I plug it in and it should do it’s thing. If the scenario that you fabricated is indeed realistic, does it not add value to joining the AMA and flying at a FRIA? Either way makes no difference to me as I will be flying ar a FRIA, been at least 10 years since I’ve flown at a place other then a club site. IMO it’s not safe to fly in an uncontrolled environment.
When we run boats, WE DO FOLLOW ALL SAFETY RULES
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Originally Posted by mongo
(Post 12737965)
ahh, but it is very easy to force them to not fly at all.
which is the probably very high on the FAA agenda. In the Final Rule the rational for Remote ID modules isn't for legacy model aircraft it's it's for drones: [FRIA's] "would not provide sufficient capacity to accommodate operations of hundreds of thousands of current UAS that would not be permitted to fly elsewhere"... [Remote ID modules] "which reduces the need to operate at FAA-recognized identification areas." In the Final Rule much of it is qualified by "at this time". If modules do become available they will be history as soon as the FAA deems those drones obsolete. Model aircraft are an anachronism. The FAA no longer even acknowledges them. |
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