Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

Horrace Cain has been chasing me around this forum on an issue that has me wondering if I am out of line.

I have stated, in several threads, that I feel that my ethical and moral standards were violated by both he and Dr. Sandy Frank in breeching the nomination process by their nomination of others to run against them. I believe that each of us has our own ethical and moral standards and that they are ours alone. Having said that, I am curious if I am out of line, and if the members of this forum are on agreement with Horrace that it is OK to use the rules to ones advantage.

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

I'm sure that you will find that most people will agree with you. Manipulation of the voting process, even though it was within the guidelines set forth, wreaks of impropriety. They knew what they were doing and we have a very good idea of why. I makes the two of them look bad and demeans the process.

A word that is missing from both Sandy Franks and Horrace Caines vocabulary is integrity. Their actions in this matter shows that they have very little, but that is my opinion.

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

The rules need changing. All rules are used to advantage someone somewhere...That will never change...it is the nature of rules.

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

Agreed. No rule or law was broken... but... rules have intent. How can a VP and a prior VP pretend to not realize the intent? It is that moral and ethical decision by them that offends the heck out of me, but, I could be wrong in my own values.

JR

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

12DDD-
Yes, the rules need changing, and that's a damned shame. Rules are constraints on individual freedoms of choice that are imposed on everyone, necessitated by the few misfits in society that were not born and bred to distinguish right from wrong. You are certainly right in your observation that all rules (or lack thereof) are used to advantage by somebody. Slick Willy didn't do anything wrong - there weren't any laws he could be pinned with. Any number of military leaders that have been tried for hideous war crimes have argued they were only following orders (rules) set down by their leader(s). Many were and will be ultimately judged on moral and ethical standards that were/are accepted by their judges as superseding the rules they were conforming to. I am just fine with that, and likewise just fine with JR applying his standards in judging Horrace Cain and Sandy Frank as unacceptable for leadership roles. I've always done the same; leaders that are acceptable to me don't need a rulebook to know how to act.

Abel

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: abel_pranger

you said a mouthful, there!
You and I could get along just fine! Ethical behavior is doing what's right even when nobody is looking!---I have to face myself in the mirror each morning-and that's bad enough without some demon sitting on my shoulder...

Roger

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

i think nominating somebody to run against you who is your friend, and doing this with the intent of shapeing the outcome of the election in your favor is immoral and un-ethical. i also feel if our elected officials in washington could get away with this, they would be doing it too.
now i don't know whats goin on with the elections, i haven't been a member of the ama for that long, but i know it makes me sick to hear of it.
sad fact is these folks are just normal everyday people. just as suceptable to the draw of power as everybody else. i am told this is an unpaid position so it must be power that motivates them to cheat (aledgedly).
there are too many rules around these days, but i think in this case a re-write on a new rule is in order.

guess they forgot about the write-in space on the ballot, at least we don't have to vote for them or their friends

john

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

Ok guys was there a limit to the total number of nominees allowed?

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

No, nominations have no limit. However, there are only 3 official candidates allowed on the ballot.

I firmly believe the sign that I saw on a client's factory door is right. "Honesty is like pregnancy. You are or you are not." Clearly we need to change the nominations process to encourage honesty.

The actions taken by two of the candidates are the ONLY reason I got into this mess at the late date I did.

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

The VP in District V has been doing just what they did for years...maybe next election SOMETHING can be done.....

Jerry

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

He was never quite as blatant. These were over their own signatures. For the first time, some believe it might have happened before. I guess when you live by the intent of the rules, as most of them do, it comes as a shock. You can see the concern. They recommended a committee be formed as the NC, and a few minutes later as they joined the rest of the EC, the committee was formed. Hopefully, never again.

JR

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

So what prevented others from being considered, such as Jim? It seems to me that even if the intent was to "stuff" the nomination process it was an exercise in futility, which would be hard to believe Sandy would not have considered that. It also seems that when Sandy's "friends" withdrew their nominations their intent could have only been to insure others would have a real chance. Could it be that Sandy initially felt there would not be any serious interest in his office and only made the nominations as a matter of honor or gratuity to his friends for recognition?

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

Sandy Frank had access to the nominations as they came in and made his after the others were made, and Jim has made it clear that he decided to run ONLY AFTER and BECAUSE OF the actions of Mr. Cain and Dr. Frank, when they were confirmed by Bill Oberdieck, NC Chairman and D VII VP... much too late for the normal nominating process.

Exactly why the nominations made by Dr. Frank were withdrawn DURING the NC meeting remains a mystery. I suppose there are many hypothetical answers possible.

JR

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

If that is the "only" reason why bother? Wouldn't it just be academic anyway then?

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

Isn't that what the election will determine?

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

12DDD

Since you have already stated your preference for Sandy Frank and seem to have made up your mind, why ask all the hypothetical questions? We can only speculate as to the intent of the people involved.

The hard facts are contained in the NC minutes which have been posted in this forum, including the fact that the NC suggests "that any information regarding nominees be held confidential to all until the close of the nomination process". I take that as having a two fold purpose: to keep the information from the members of the EC, as well as letting others have access to it.

JR

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

I guess it really depends on your perspective...foresight or hindsight...proactive or reactive.

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

You know JR that is exactly why you stink. Why does anyone ask questions?(BTW I guess I better point out rhetorical) I am just trying to learn. So far I have only heard a bunch of vague crap and you said yourself that intent goes undefined...then why should it be construed one way or the other.

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

Apparently, those that believe in the intent of the rules are taking a reactive approach through the clearer vision of hindsight. There is now a committee to review the nomination process. Hopefully, you, I, and others here, will get our wish and a new nominating process.

JR

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

BTW what hypothetical questions have I asked? They have been real questions about the real workings of the process in question. But I guess you will not admit that though.

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

It does not appear that you are trying to learn anything. You have your mind made up. This was your first statement of the thread. Then you start throwing out cute hypotheticals to cleanse your candidate. It is becoming apparent that there are certain advantages to hiding ones identity. Nite Bill

JR

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

JR I knew you could not admit I haven't asked any hypothetical queastions.



Here you are in the corner throwing out the anonymity card...And in previous posts you indicated that you haven't a problem with anonymity at all. So why are you crying about it now?

And who is Bill?

Yes you are right anonymity does provide certain advantages, of which, one of the biggest is a real insight to how people react to certain prompts or perceived scenarios without the ability of being sure who they may be addressing.

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

12DDD

on the off chance that you are truly trying to learn and have not seen the following post, maybe it is what you are looking for. Bill Lee was one of those nominated by Sandy Frank. The URL to the original post is at the bottom.

JR

__________________________________________________ ________
quote:

Originally posted by J_R


Could we then assume that if your name is on the District VIII VP Ballot opposing Sandy Frank next year, which is not a long time, it is only there to act as a filler so that another nominee might not be placed on the ballot?

JR
__________________________________________________ ________
JR, your ass-ump-tions are showing! :-)

Any imagined conspiracy that sees me as a VP candidate next year is just ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS! No way at all.

I don't think Sandy Frank will need nor want any such "help" to win another term if he chooses to run.

Regards,

Bill Lee

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.a...592&tostyle=tm

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

12DDD

I sincerely hope that my previous post gives you fresh insight. The fact that Bill Lee was nominated by Dr. Frank was confirmed by several EC members including Dave Brown. Feel free to call Dave to confirm it for yourself. It will not be the first call he has received for that reason. You can also confirm the other statements I have made with him, as well. I hope that his confirmation will lead you to believe my "crap" in the future.

JR

PS I would not use the name 12DDD when you call.

RE: Ethics, Morals, and the Nominating Process
 

JR

Many arrows shot in the dark in hopes of hitting something.

Look, this last post only solidifies my perspectives.

I would not dream of wasting Dave's time with such silliness.