Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

I had an event happen yesteray at a flying field, and I am at a loss as to a remedy. I am posting this for input from others, so Thank you in advance:
our field is a nice field supplied by our county. We have a 500' x 30' paved runway with clearance on both the South and North approach ends. Cars park on the West side. Open field on the East side. There is about 75 yards from the cars to the runway. Flying stations mid runway.
The problem is we have helicopters show up, and they seem to insist on flying at the departure end of the runway, into airspace used for flying by and takeoffs. They park at the South end of the lot, and they position their bodies about 20 yards West of the edge of the runway. I had an airplane crash not far from that area yesterday due to a severe out of trim condition. I spoke to the helicopter flyer and his response was " you should fly better than that". Grrrrr. We have lots of newbies at our field, and with that atitude someone someday will get flown into.
I understand their dilemna, but outside of not flying at this field at all I am a loss as to an answer. They say that if they fly in the flying stations everyone complains they're taking up space for the airplanes, which I can see would be a problem also.
I really don't think helicopters and planes mix well. I understand there is a paranoia by the helicopter people. Watching yesterday only confirmed it to me. Help?

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

Helicopters and fixed wing planes mix just fine... if everyone follows the same rules.

There is not much difference in effect on other pilots from a heli hovering vs a 3D aerobatic model hogging the runway. Either one is going to keep others from using the runway while they hover close in to the pilots stations...

The problem is not that you have helis flying... its that the "Plankers" and "Eggbeaters" are not properly cooperating wth each other. It is NOT supposed to be a case of "Them vs Us."

The heli pilots should fly from the same stations as the fixed wing. Its safer. The one group separating by just enough to be unable to hear the other yet still sharing the same runway is a problem.

If the heli flyer is not proficient enough to be doing more than hover practice... he needs to be considerate of others, and attempt to time his flights durring the lulls in operation of other models. That is common courtesy. (something that is usually missing on at least one side when heli vs fixed wing issues develop.)

The fixed wing 3D flyers need to be courteous o people flying ter types... and not practice low level hover 12 ft from the pilot line when they are not proficient... and others are flying "the pattern".

Anyone doing any form of hover needs to (if possible...) clear the runway for anyone making a landing. Landings have priority over hovers EVERY time. Dead-stick has priority over anyone. Touch-n-go practice is not an excuse to clear the helis from the field.

if you know the guy who took the heli out to the runway to practice hovers is a beginner with the helis... and he was courteous enough to NOT take over the runway when others were inthe air... be courteous to him and don't take your plane out to get in his way.

I have seen mixed heli and fixed wing ops work with no hassles at all... the more proficient heli pilot doing his hover practices.. and when the fixed wing pilot wanted the runway... he called his intentions adnt he heli pilot hovered off out of the way or went high and started flying around the traffic pattern just like a fixed wing 3D plane should in the same circumstances...

Don't create problems. if you are not part of the solution you are the problem.

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

Helis and planes DO NOT mix well, as was suggested in the first post, however they can co exist if local rules are made to prevent flying over the runway by all and flight boxes are used by all.

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

Thank you for your input. I didn't mention that yesterday someone brought out his 1/3 scale Extra and trolled the the pits looking for anyone who could be on his frequency. a helicopter flyer was indeed on his frequency and so acknowledged. The Extra was flying when the helicopter turned his on, outside of earshot, as the Extra flyer yelled " someone is on my frequency...I don't have control". One nice Extra is history. The party at fault has said " he will make it right" with the Extra owner. Time will tell. so needless. not thinking at all. unable to print what the Extra flyer had to say. not pretty.

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

flying over the runway prevented... no low passes... no 3D... Even touch-n-go pratice could be seen as a violation. (since touch-n-go practice is what the heli's close in hover practice really is... learning to control lthe heil in take-off and landing mode.)

You'd lose half of your club members.

The rule that ALL use the pilot boxes.. definitely needed.

And if you have proper frequency control... you have pins or a board... and one person in the shoot-down instance was violating frequency control. That occasionally happens with 2 fixed-wing pilots... and usually the second radio going on is in the pits.. far enough that the offender doesn't hear the other person hollering in time to shut down and save the affected aircraft.

Frequency control is not a heli vs fixed wing issue at all.

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

I agree with FHHuber. That is the way our field works. We also have a seperate area for hover training. We don't always get along 100% but ironicly it is one or two of the 3D airplane guys vs the 3D helicopter guys. I still refuse to consider an airplane "3D" until it can at least fly backwards into the relative wind, but that is just me :D.

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

I also feel that airplanes and helicopters do not mix well. With some rules and compromises on both sides, things can be worked out, but in my opinion, everyone would be happier if you used seperate fields for each.

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

Helis and planes mix just fine. Its the people at the field that don't mix well.

You dont want to set up 2 different pit areas for them. You have one pit, one set of freq control and everyone works together. The heli pilots have to understand there are planes there too and if he needs to hover, stand at the pilot station, take off, fly to the area past the runway and hover, otherwise fly like a plane.

I flew my heli at the field this weekend and was flying at the same time as the planes and there was no conflicts, problems or plankers whining about the heli in the air (accept the one that was in the air and wanted to watch the heli). If the group has good communication, then it can work fine. If you have newbie heli pilots that just need hover practice, set up a safe area for them to do that, but not standing at the side or end of an active runway. Thats just plain dumb.

Most of the places I have been to with both work very well. The ones that don't work well are the ones that have either plank only flyers or heli only flyers that think the others shouldn't be there and won't work well with them. Then you have problems.

Everyone needs to work together to make it work and in the same area. Flying helis while standing away from other guys flying anything else is a good way to get killed. Not a smart thing to do.

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

Having a separate area for helis to practice hovering is a good idea, but I think there should not be too much of a problem having planes and helicopters share a field. Inviting the heli pilots to use the pilot stations might be a good first step in reducing the sharing the field problem. It appears that the heli pilots have moved to the end of the runway because they feel they are not welcome at the pilot stations. If they have moved trying to get out of the way of the planes inviting them back should help with the us vs. them feelings.

The field I fly at has more helicopters than planes. It is a small club, so we do not have the problems of busier fields. Different flying styles have different needs. 3D plane and helicopter pilots like to fly in closer than traditional plane pilots. To me making the landing strip a "no fly zone" is equivalent to making 3D and helicopter flyers second class citizens. 3D planes and helicopters can fly "the pattern," but to some that is not much fun.

Setting up a rotation of flying styles could resolve some issues. It is difficult to safely have planes flying "the pattern" and 3D at the same time. Same with planes and helicopters.

Last year, after much encouragement for the heli guys at my field, I got a Raptor. There was some good natured kidding from the heli guys about how difficult it was to fly a helicopter compared to planes. After I got the Raptor I continued to fly my planes, and often took a plane and the Raptor to the field. I sometimes would bring an old trainer to the field and let the heli guys fly it. They quickly learned that while flying a plane may not be as complex as a helicopter, it requires different techniques. Now all of the heli pilots have or are getting planes.

Not everyone is interested in flying both planes and helis, but I think there is so much in common with the two that if you have an interest in one you would probably enjoy the other. If your helicopter guys continue to be banished (self imposed or not) to the end of the field, I doubt the situation will improve.

Eric

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

At our club we have a pilots station that is 90 degrees to the other stations (there is a fence behind the station). That station is for heli hovering only. Heli pilots who can fly can fly at the other stations and fly with the planes. Nobody has a problem with it. We just ask that they don't do extended hovering maneuvers over the runway, but some is ok. So far no problems. If someone is dead stick, they get out of the way like everyone else.

Point being that helis and planes can mix just fine if the right dynamic is setup and nobody has an attitude problem.

- Paul

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

At our field no one goes up when someone wants to fly a chopper as they fly against the pattern, most do not have complete controll, and we like to see the choppers crash, as seeing them beating them selves to death is funny. Those that have big choppers usually do some great flying and being up at the same time with our planks we would miss seeing them do their form of 3D.

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

And I've seen a heli shot down by a piss-ornery old fart who was going to fly, because, by God, no helicoter is going to keep him out of the air. He KNEW the heli was on his frequency, and he deliberately turned on his transmitter to shoot down the heli, then claimed he didn't know. I get tired of this fixed-wing vs. heli crap, I, along with many other guys here at our club, fly both planes and helis, we all get along fine. I guess what really set me off was the "helicopter contamination" thing. Are we not all smart enough to realize that we ALL fly r/c, we are ALL in this hobby to have fun? Lincoln said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand". Think about it!

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

I was at one of the local club fields yesterday...
We had 2 fixed wing and 2 helis flying at the same tame a few times.... NO conflicts AT ALL!

There is no nherant problem wth operating helis and fixed wing in side by side pilot boxes at the same time.

If you got a problem... SOMEONE is it. Its not the Heli model and its not the fixed wing model... they don't care.

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

At our field, they mix well. We started having issues late last year and over the winter, guys from both sides got together to work things out.

The Field rule is that there is no hovering (fixed or rotary wing) near the pilots stations. It's just plain unsafe, and bad headwork, should something go out of control. We worked it out so that the heli boys have their own area to hover. We have one lean-to so everyone is together by the frequency board.

Both sides realized the problems we had last year, and both sides got together to come up with some workable Field rules.

It takes MUTUAL cooperation, respect, and maturity to work the issues out, but they ARE workable.

Just my $.02

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

I agree with what N1EDM said, we were having the same problem planes and heli's sharing the same runway and I'm one of the few that fly both, so I saw it clearly from both points of view.
in the end the heli guys and fixed flyers agreed to follow the same rules .
WYLDMAN

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

Ya just shoot down all the choppers, then they are gone, and you have the field for planks the way it should be.

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

Many much better solutions have already been discussed.

If one spends more than 2 seconds thinking about it you realize that shooting down a helicopter may be physically hazardous to YOUR health (reference the recent incident in Houston). Bad attitudes like the one shown in the above remark demonstrate the total lack of thought and arrogance of the writer for the average modeler. I guess that is one good reason to hide and NOT to put your real name on things.

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

Purposeful (easilly proveable in your case) interference causing the destruction of a model is a prosecuteable offence under CFR 97. I would not advise trying it. (and a bunch of state and local laws should apply too... malicious mischief and all kinds of other neat things to whack your butt with. The local prosecutor could have a field day on your tail.)

You can end up in jail AND paying for the guy's heli.

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

I don't think his comment was serious.

But just in case... Taildragger - what would you suggest? A sniper rifle or a shotgun? :D

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

And the crusade continues...:eek::eek:

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

Nah, not a crusade but an observation about trash talk.

I have been watching that MOST of the trash talk seems to come from those with handles rather than names. It means nothing except in cases where aggressive and/or implied threats are made to others. Then it only means the writer is cowardly, but you knew that.


In short, I stand by what I said.

Thanks for your observation, even if it was wrong.

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

:DI guess the smiley didn't take on my last post, 36" full choke double barrell would probally do the best job. Just a observation, some people who post with their real names would not call any one a coward face to face but hide behind a computer to do so.

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

No, you didn't seem to put a "smiley" out there. That remark surely did not speak well of you and I am glad you have addressed the issue.

Most of the HONORABLE people follow the very simple rules of etiqutite and NEVER say in 'print' what would not be said face to face. Only those lower than whale effluent make personal attacks without the honor implied by a valid name. You are welcome to decide where in that spectrum you belong. - I don't really care -

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

I don't want to get in between you two, but are you saying that you never say anything politically incorrect in jest? Dark humor is a wonderful thing in my opinion and I use it all the time in person when people know my name.

- Paul K. Johnson :)

RE: Helicopter Flying Field Contamination
 

For one who don't care you sure seem to take issue about the rules of etiqutite instead of the debate at hand. It seems every one knew I was joking but you.