AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

Has anyone else noted that our AMA Safety Code dose not agree with the FAA's Advisory Circular AC 91-57 wrt how and where to fly models?

AMA:
2) I will not fly my model higher than approximately 400 feet within 3 miles of an airport without notifying the airport operator.

FAA:
c. Do not fly model aircraft higher than 400 feet above the surface. When flying aircraft within 3 miles of an airport, notify the airport operator, or when an air traffic facility is located at the airport, notify the control tower, or flight service station.

Significant intent difference there on the altitude issues.

Whatcha think???

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

we rarely exceed 400 ft anyway...

Go watch a Pattern competition. Stand near the Judges (thy will let AMA members do that if you just ask)

The distance from flight line (where the pilot is standing... just a few feet from the judges) that the planes fly is appx 250 to 275 ft out when the aircraft is passing directly in front of the judges (where all the centered maneuvers are done.)

At 275 ft out... the plane is 388 ft from the pilot and 275 ft altitude when at a 45 deg angle upward.

Watch the angle of elevation at the maximum... its rare that anyone exceeds 50 deg... (putting the plane maybe 400 ft above ground...)

Look at how small the aircraft looks when at that distance... (pretty darn small...)

How far up did you THINK it was when it was up there? (most people, before that explaination, would have estimated the altitude at 1000 ft....)

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

The FAA FAR is required for controlled airports, uncontrolled airports and approach patterns, all which full scale have the right of way. If there is an RC field within the VOR, then it should be noted on the sectional that radio controlled aircraft activity is in the area and than min 400' AGL be maintained. That is why the club must contact the local flight service center so that the area can be designated with this disclaimer. Bear in mind, unless it is a once in a time deal, you do not have to call flight service every time you fly. Both my private field and my club's field are located within the 3 mile VOR of the regional airport, so both fields are located on the sectional with the 400' disclaimer. It wasn't hard to do, just took a phone call.

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/1ab39b4ed563b08985256a35006d56af/1acfc3f689769a56862569e70077c9cc/$FILE/ATTBJMAC/ac91-57.pdf

Took me a while to actually find the document referred to...

Its ADVICE, not a regulation.

I call your attention specificly to paragraph 2 of this document though (after you note the date...) Model aviation enthusiasts had gathered some respect from the FAA for paying attention to safety issues.

How many are working toward maintaining the FAA's respect (therefore keeping them from regulating the hobby...) instead of working to see how many parts of the safety advice we try to give they can just chuck out the window? (which will certainly lead to federal regulation if enough problems arise...)

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

There arew a significant number of issues that the AMA has failed to keep up with in recrnt years. They have been so consumed with the national flying site and other things in Muncie that they have not bothered to move into the 21st century. Instead they pick on many of the various SIGS!!!!!!!!!

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

scottrc, where abouts in Kansas are you located?

Tomski

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

Contact Sandy Frank and ask about these issues you THINK the AMA has ignored. I'm certain you will find that a LOT of stuff is being dealt with that you never hear anything about. (because its being dealt with...)

And which SIG is being picked on? IMAA because they wanted to usurp the AMA's program for event sanctioning? (no other SIG asked to do that... why should the IMAA be special?) The Jets for being asked to be extra careful with a device that involves extra risks and extra knowledge? (when the program is fairly simple to deal with to gain the waiver... unless you don't have the NEEDED skill to handle it...) The 55 lb + modelers that have special structural requirments (rather than the "TLAR" which you can get away with on a 5 lb trainer...)

OOOoooo... gotta be the 3D pilots upset with the "Tail Touch" issue. Sorry... just make it so a WHEEL hits before the rudder. Case closed. (all of 5 min work on the model and its covered....)

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

Actually it's over my head as I do not see any significant difference. AMA uses '...approximately 400 feet...' whereas FAA states specifically 400 ft. above the surface. Is your question reference to the differences in true altitude, absolute altitude, pressure altitude, etc., since AMA failed to state 400 feet absolute?
You did not question the airport status reference uncontrolled, controlled, or whatever. For AMA's SC, airport operator covers it all. For FAA, they are just a bit more specific for pilots that may have no clue as to what a radio-controlled model is, and may be in communications with a Tower, FSS, or none at all.

Nope, all same difference. :)

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

I think the point being made is that both versions could be reconciled with the addition of an OR...

AMA:
2) I will not fly my model higher than approximately 400 feet ORwithin 3 miles of an airport without notifying the airport operator.

FAA:
c. Do not fly model aircraft higher than 400 feet above the surface. When flying aircraft within 3 miles of an airport, notify the airport operator, or when an air traffic facility is located at the airport, notify the control tower, or flight service station.

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

FHHuber,
"And which SIG is being picked on? IMAA because they wanted to usurp the AMA's program for event sanctioning? (no other SIG asked to do that... why should the IMAA be special?) The Jets for being asked to be extra careful with a device that involves extra risks and extra knowledge? (when the program is fairly simple to deal with to gain the waiver... unless you don't have the NEEDED skill to handle it...) The 55 lb + modelers that have special structural requirments (rather than the "TLAR" which you can get away with on a 5 lb trainer...)

OOOoooo... gotta be the 3D pilots upset with the "Tail Touch" issue. Sorry... just make it so a WHEEL hits before the rudder. Case closed. (all of 5 min work on the model and its covered....) "

Yes, all of the above.

Jon

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

[/quote]Actually it's over my head as I do not see any significant difference. AMA uses '...approximately 400 feet...' whereas FAA states specifically 400 ft. above the surface. Is your question reference to the differences in true altitude, absolute altitude, pressure altitude, etc., since AMA failed to state 400 feet absolute?
You did not question the airport status reference uncontrolled, controlled, or whatever. For AMA's SC, airport operator covers it all. For FAA, they are just a bit more specific for pilots that may have no clue as to what a radio-controlled model is, and may be in communications with a Tower, FSS, or none at all.

Nope, all same difference. :)
[/quote]

Actually Horace there is a clear difference the FAA advises that we should not fly our models over 400 feet PERIOD! Anywhere any time.

The safety code has merged two sentences of the AC into one. No flying over 400 feet within 3 miles of an airport.

That's the difference.

And I agree that it is almost a useless number because we can't meaningfully measure it. But since FAR Part 91 requires the full scale pilot to stay 500 feet from obstructions (usually interpreted to be the ground) the 400 foot number is FAA legalese for trying to keep a 100 foot buffer between us'n and them'n.

Tom

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

>>>>>>>>>>

Actually Horace there is a clear difference the FAA advises that we should not fly our models over 400 feet PERIOD! Anywhere any time.

The safety code has merged two sentences of the AC into one. No flying over 400 feet within 3 miles of an airport.

That's the difference.
<<<<<<<<<<<


TOUCHE![sm=tired.gif] I'm a goin' down in flames. Who's that BUM that complains about some not being able to read? OH, THE SHAME OF IT ALL![X(] Yep, I do be just a mark under your canopy.:(

The FAA being advisory is not totally ruling while AMA's SC is ruling under threat of insurance. If AMA used the 400 ft. overall then the soaring fraternity would be somewhat left astray. Same for some FF models.

However as you said, There IS a difference.

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

It would also leave me out when I fly my jet doing my favorite maneuver.....A "BFL"!!!!:D

Kevin

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

The ama is telling you not to fly in controlled airspace. FAA and AMA agree on this. Generally within 3 miles of an airport and over 400 feet it is controlled airspace. As far as i know, it is set in stone that you can not fly a model in controlled airspace. Most of the airspace up to 1,200 feet AGL is uncontrolled. I'm not sure if the FAA worries much about anything in uncontrolled airspace. You can jump in your homebuilt contraption and go fly around in uncontrolled airspace. I think rockets, ham balloons, and stuff along those lines have more to worry about than we do and I think they do contact the FAA to some degree. Like someone already said, we probably overestimate our height and speed more often than not anyway.

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

Actually... you can fly right on the airport... on the runway... that's about as centered in controlled airspace as you can get.

You just have to have permission from the airport operator. Some small airports will allow it and just say... "Keep out of the way of the 'real' airplanes." I know... because I've belonged to a club where the municipal airport was thier flying site.

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

That's where I primarily fly. (At a local airport) The FBO loves having us there...He has even gone on the radio and told some full scale guys that were practicing touch and goes for hours to land and let the jet guys fly!!! I consider myself very fortunate to have a friend in this FBO!!!

Kevin

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

I should of thought of that as I have flown at a club like that. But is it an uncontrolled airport? I'm guessing they would frown on that at Kennedy International :D.

http://bathursted.ccnb.nb.ca/vatcan/...edAirspace.gif

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

In response to post #2 above. Just some more thoughts


Actually FH, if you go to the AMA Competition directory and do the math then the numbers are surprising. (Yes I do fly pattern, and yes I have been a Pattern contest judge.

The book says that max altitude from the pilot's point of view is 60 degrees up. The max depth of the box is 175 METERS from the JUDGES who are 10 Meters behind the pilot then the trig works out that the theoretical top of the aero box is 937 FEET above the pilot's eyeballs, or 942 feet above ground!

And since the trend in pattern flying has been toward the BIG slow flight patterns I'll bet we're definitely exceeding 800 feet AGL at most pattern meets.


Tom

RE: AMA Safety code vs the Advisory Circular??
 

I've been a judge at a couple of Pattern contests where Todd Blose (FAI top 20 competitor.. occasionally top 5 at the Nats..) competes.

The airfield is ideal for tracking where the guys fly... because they fly just at 30 feet to 100 ft past the tree line. The tree line is a measured 250 ft from our safety FENCE (for the spectators) The pilots stations are appx 50 ft closer to the tree line... So where they are actually flying is... appx 230 to 300 ft from the pilot's box.

When a plane goes down durring a Pattern contest or practicing the maneuvers... there are 3 normal areas they hit. Each of these areas is less than 50 ft dia. (one spot has gotten 80% of all the pattern planes lost durring practice and contests in the past 5 years... including the 2 that mid-aired and dropped right in the center of that area.) These locations are right on the 250 ft from the pilots box line parallel to the runway.

I'd tend to go by the observed flight path that is that consistent.

So while the rules may allow you to be nearly twice as far away... they aren't flying that far out.