bad things sometimes happen
 

guess we should get ready for some knee jercking real soon.

copyed from another board:

"From the IMAA:

Dear Members of the IMAA Board
I have been notified of a horrific accident that happened over the weekend in Wakeman, Ohio. A good friends of mine Casey Rowe and Brian Striker who have flown together for years encountered what we have all talked about at our Board meetings for months, What if one of these 42% aircraft hit someone?
Well Brian had a 42% Oracle Bi-plane as it took off he lost control of the aircraft. Casey who was over 300ft away sitting under his tent, stood up and looked at what was transpiring and before he know it, tried to leap away from the incoming 47# 80 mph 42% biplane but to no avail.
He was struck in the back the carbon fiber prop cut through his back into his kidneys, severed his leg almost completely off. They called 911 and he was transported by life flight to Cleveland metro where he is in stable condition. I talked to Casey today and he wants everyone to know that his can happen to anyone.
These guys are professional RC pilots and use the best equipment!! Casey is lucky to be! alive and is very shaken by the whole incident. I wished him our best on behalf of the IMAA. I would like to work with the AMA safety committee and really look into a way to police ourselves. We and Casey are lucky no one was killed. If we do not put restrictions and more failsafe measures in effect on ourselves then I feel the FAA and other government agencies will do it for us. I feel this was our wakeup call I hope we can all work together on these
issues.

Sincerely,

IMAA President Tom Hayden # 5138"

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

How does an out of control plane, flown by "professionals", still have a rototating prop when it hits?

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

My deepest sympathy to Mr. Rowe, his family, and the witnesses, as well as the pilot of this unfortunate happening.

pretty hard-hearted there, Mr. Matt...
Which part of "Out of Control" did you have trouble with? A radio failure or the like would preclude killing the engine, as would a number of other factors. Best to wait for the full story before conjecture and blame setting.
Roger

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

I was going to wait in posting this. The Heart of Ohio Jet Scramble was cancelled on the second day after substantial radio interference problems. There have also been reports of BPL being tested in Ohio. None of these may be related, or they may all be. It would seem that some patience is in order until the facts are disclosed surrounding each event.

In the mean time, a frequency scanner being used by those in the area would seem appropriate.

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

J_R,
They had a scanner at HOH and everything was clear for several days before the event. When the event started, there was RF all over the place, including many frequencies set aside for modeling.
HOH had a similar problem last year with interference, but not as bad as this year.
Jon

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

I think mr_matt was talking about the failsafe setting. Some guys won't set their failsafe to idle. I saw a giant scale go into lockout and fly off into another field. Pilot wouldnt set failsafe to idle because it would "cause his plane to crash" well he proved it can crash at full throttle also. Some will try to save their airplane at all cost even if it means heading toward the pitts. But that is another rant for a more appropriate time and may have nothing to do with this.

I hate to see this type of thing happen and hope he recovers fully. There are risks in every hobby and this hobby is no different.

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

So do you think the guy had his failsafe set to kill the engine or not?

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

Not hard-hearted, Roger, but a very germane question. The victim was reportedly 300' away from a plane taking off - that translates to a time span on the order of 10 seconds, which is way more than enough time for pilot decision making and reaction, if there was any control via the R/C system at all. Matt isn't necessarily looking for somebody to blame, but probably wants to know just what failure(s) caused the accident. If you're gonna prevent them from happening, you gotta know what causes them to happen. Conjecture isn't out of line - it's often what you have to start with and then confirm or rule out as facts become known - unless of course they were clearly evident to begin with.

Abel

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

Radio manufacturers put failsafe programming into PCM radios for a reason. The vast majority of people never set them up unfortunately. This needs to change.

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

Looks like the knee jerk reactions have already started. It seems some are making the assumption that a PCM radio was being used and not a PPM. As for the continuing argument over which is better from a safety standpoint, there are several threads on that one, and this doesn't seem to be the place for starting another.

Let's wait for the full story then we can formulate the safety responses.

For me, this is certainly an OMG! I am glad the man wasn't killed, but I am very saddened that he has had this life changing event.

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

...and while we're waiting, how many more people are unnecessarily put at risk every week by poorly set failsafes ? IMO there is never a wrong time to discuss safety - even if this event ends up having nothing to do with the pilot's choice of failsafe, the simple fact that this important topic is once again aired for all to see could save someone else's life.

This is not about trying to apportion blame anywhere - it's about trying to ensure that people take enough notice to ensure that they make an informed decision about how they set their equipment up. Sometimes it takes a horrific event like this for people to sit up and take note.

Gordon

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

Gordon,

I was simply trying to say that this thread, may not be the best place to start that argument (PCM with failsafe vs PPM without).

I would also like to add that I am sorry for the gentleman who's plane it was. Having to live with that, and the "could I have prevented it" for the rest of his life will be difficult.

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

I'm not trying to start an argument nor do I know failsafe would have prevented this or not. What I'm saying is WHEN you fly PCM radios, please setup your failsafe properly. It's there for a reason and it CAN save lives (would have already in at least 1 case).

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

Doug - since you have an "in" with one of the big radio manufacturers ... can you tell us whether JR has done anything about the BMFA's recommendations about default failsafe settings ? (The recommendations that followed the death of Adam Kirby - see http://www.bmfa.org/news/bulletins/bull2_99.html ).

If they haven't, now might be a good time to give them another nudge...

Thanks,
Gordon

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

A carbon fiber prop at idle will cut through flesh as well if it was at full throttle. Even at deadstick, a 20lb plane can seriously injure someone if hit. I had a G62 fall off a bench and onto my foot a few weeks ago. Saved the engine but put one hell of a bruise in the middle of my foot. Glad the plane wasn't still attached.

I think maybe we can look at field design. Kinda like the autorace profession had to do with track layouts. The cars get bigger and faster, and crash harder causing parts to fly farther. Maybe looking into crash barriers than can take the full impact of the 33% or larger at full speed and are high enough to catch a plane if out of control on takeoff or landing. Layout of the pits and spectators areas so that they can be protected from flying debris if the plane hits the barrier. Face it, many of our fields and safety layouts were designed back when a 1/4 scale plane was thought of as large and the majority of the craft were .40 size. Now at present, the vast majority of the planes are 80 inches or more, weigh over 20 lbs, and are whopping with 15 or more HP.


All I hear is safety procedures and restrictions for the pilots, which in my opinion cannot be fully justified since they cannot be in 100% control of the plane no matter how much reducancy we design into the radio systems. Maybe we need to look at the surroundings as well and see it we can make improvements there instead of just to the plane and the planes systems.

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

Until there is a report from the people that were ACTUALLY there, NO ONE here can say what is at fault or how to fix it!!! All I read is failsafe, failsafe, failsafe, how do you know the failsafe wasn't working? Maybe a connection came loose and the idle signal never got to the servo. Maybe the servo locked up. Just because a very experienced, skillful pilot was at the controls doesn't mean hardware can't malfunction even if it was just checked.

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

And how long do you think it will take to get such aa report? This was a very serious incident, and the injured fellow will doubtless face some major medical bills, be unable to work or carry on his daily routine for a long time, and could well have permanent disabilities and require lifelong medical treatment. There will be big money involved in compensation, and you can bet the farm that means lawyers will be very much involved. The very first thing they will, and likely already have, tell anyone in a position to know the details of what happened (like failsafe settings, if any) is to say nothing about it to anyone. There is not likely to be any 'what and/or who is at fault' information available until after settlement of a major liability case, which could take years and even then the detailed findings may be suppressed by the court. Given that scenario, how would you respond to Gordon's post #11? The IMAA president is looking to AMA for safety guidance as a result of this incident. Should the AMA Safety Committee sit on their hands and wait until the lawyers are done with this before taking some action to preclude conditions that might have contributed to this accident in the hope of preventing some in the future?

Abel

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

Fail safe or not. How many people are put at risk by people who are not qualified to fly certain airplanes or the planes they are flying should be in a garbage can. Its easy to sit here and say what he should of done or I would of done this. Everyone reacts differently in different situations. Right now people should be more concerned with the health and welfare of Mr. Rowe and his family.

Mr. Rowe, I wish the best and a speedy recovery.

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

Yes.

I would prefer that action, I.E. rule-making, be taken based on fact rather than speculation. When it comes down to it, only one thing would definitely have prevented this accident, which is that RC aircraft are no longer allowed. I don't think we want that do we?

While it always good to evaluate an incident, and try to improve, it is equally dangerous to evaluate an incident based on false information.


What the safety committee should do, is to INVESTIGATE the actual cause of the incident. They should NOTIFY the membership that the incident took place and that the cause is being INVESTIGATED. Once the FACTS are in, they can then propose remedies if it is believed that a remediable situation exists, and that such remedy is even warranted.

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

scottrc
Exactly!

First off let me say that I feel for all those involved in this horrific incident and pray for a full recovery for the injured.

It has always concerned me that the "pit line” runs parallel to the flight line at the events I have attended, in which most have been large scale 3-D. It seems that “pit lines" should recede at some angle, say 10 degrees or so, in relation to the flight line. At most events I have attended people were 'set up' up at and even beyond the end of the runway along the 'pit line' making them an easy target for an errant plane. Also I have thought that the use of what I will call "dead stops", for a lack of better terms, should be employed especially for large or large plane events. Dead stops would be something of the nature of a pipe (drill stem maybe?) anchored in and above the ground six feet or so about every twenty feet or so along the "pit line". The pipe would effectively stop all but the direct paths into the extended pit areas.

I will always be a proponent of better field designs that eliminate the need of additional rules or inconveniences to prevent accidents. Let us hope we learn from this and take REAL steps to make our hobby/sport safer and more fun. Rules really aren’t the answer to most problems but design, courtesy and consideration are the REAL answers.

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

They have not. I have been suggesting this for some time now. What I'd really like to see is a dual-stage failsafe like we have in the JetCAT ECU's. Preprogrammed position (idle) for failsafe, shutdown and another user-programmed position (elevator/rudder to full 3D deflection would be my preference) after 3 seconds. I think the throttle to idle should be the default setting in the radio regardless.

EDIT:
After speaking with JR, the new 6102 comes with the failsafe retarding the throttle to idle as default. Since this is the newest radio out, I would hope all future radios would be enabled with the same setup. I've spoken to Horizon about it and they're checking on this now. More info as I get it.

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

This is great post! I have a lot of problems with the AMA recommended field layout, to which my club built their new field. The distances between the planes and the pits and spectators are, IMHO, way too small for safe flying, and the document doesn't really even say that they should be taken as barely-safe MINIMUMs. R/C flying of big models should be done in rural areas where there is tons of room. If the field cannot afford the space for safety, then ideas like littlecrankshaf's seem appropriate. How about a big net, like they do for golf ranges? If the pit is going to be just 25 feet from the flightline, then 8' high chain link fences should protect the guys working on their planes.

And we need to get away from this anti-government, anti-lawyer paranoia that prevents us from taking meaningful steps towards making the sport safer. When we are more afraid of the so-called "knee jerk reaction" than to the horror of what actually happened, we are being incredibly insensitive to the victims of our complacence.

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

Field layout appears to be an AMA sacred cow that needs revisited. Flight operations parallel to the pits are a bad idea. No # of fences no matter how high will stop planes diving from the sky. Our field has operated for 35 years using a system of setting up the pits so that all flight operations, take off and landings, are into the wind and away from the flight line. We have a square well mowed 5 acre field and determine a pit line by parking our vehicles in a row on the whichever side of the field allows us to take off and land into the wind. If the wind is out of the southwest we park on the east side of the field and take off to the southwest away from pit row, and land from the the northeast into the southwest wind This gets the plane headed away from the pit area on take off, and going away from the pits on landing. On a day with a northeast wind we would park on the south or west side and reverse the directions. On calm days we often park on the east side in the am and in late afternoon move all the vehicles and planes to the west side of the field so the sun is at our backs all day! Panes must be started facing away from the pits and held by a restrainer when started. Taxing is allowed to within 20 feet of the flight line. Our field is well drained and usually firm enough to drive on except for a few days in early spring. We set up planes and equipment directly out of the back of our vehicles and drive only on the outside edge of the field. We have never had a serious accident in 35 years using this method and cases of landings into the end of the flight line on crosswind days is non existent for us. Most AMA field layouts seem to protect for planes "loose" on the ground, the serious injuries seem to be from planes coming from flying altitude down into someone. The man just injured this week end was in his tent! How much are one, two , or even 3 fences 3 feet high, and standing in "pilot stations" really going to protect us?

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

Doug - that's really great news ! Please thank the folks at JR for taking notice. I hope that Futaba, Hitec, et al will follow suit.

Gordon

RE: bad things sometimes happen
 

My condolences go out to all involved. A very sad situation indeed.

With that said:

Yes, field design would help. Yes, PCM failsafe to idle would help, but come on... the guy was 300 ft away. What would have made it better? If he was a half mile away? Or what about 310ft? Under a bomb shelter?

I only know what was posted above so that's all I'm going off of. But I see no reasonable way you could prevent an "out of control" plane from possibly causing damage, injury or death. Even a setting of full 3D rates- rudder/ elevator and failsafe set to idle, would only yield an idling, snap rolling/ spiraling plane plummeting toward the ground. There's no way to tell at what attitude it's going to start so there's no way to predict the outcome or impact zone.

And a 47# idling, spiraling, snaprolling plane is going to hurt badly whatever it hits.