RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

Hi Abel

I have no idea. As I said, there appears to be a lot of ambiguity in the rule. I am only surprised that the situation has not be raised before.

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

Hi JR-
It's a lot easier to understand AMA policy and and rules when you become aware of the unwritten but overreaching 'perfect AMA world' tenet, that is, there is no model aviation outside of AMA. Apply that and the ambiguity you perceive in SC rule 5 goes away. A preexisting flying site means an AMA chartered club flying site. The only time I have ever heard of the rule being invoked pertains to obtaining an AMA club charter. AMA won't grant a charter to club with a flying site within 3 miles of a preexisting AMA chartered club site, except with the frequency sharing agreement. There are no other kinds of flying sites. I belonged to a non-chartered club that required all members to be AMA members. The property owner preferred deniability of our use of his property over the AMA insurance, and did not want his permission on record. I asked our AVP about getting our site into the AMA geolocation data base and he replied that there was no provision in it for non-AMA club sites. By AMA policy, you can only be interfered with by another AMA member, as there is no model flying outside of AMA. Look over the published policy regarding PFs, 'partnering with PFs' or something of that ilk. Its guidance can be condensed to one short phrase, in full accord with the perfect world tenet: Get them to join AMA.

All becomes perfectly clear when you stick your head in the sand. Simple, huh?

for Charley - Your approach seems like a fine idea for fostering good relations with the park fliers. If the SC rule 5 is of any concern to you, as for possible insurance implications, I have a suggestion: go join the PFs at their site and do a test for interference with your club site. Draw up a frequency management agreement between yourself and your club and forward it with your interference test report to AMA HQ, per the rule.

Abel

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

A good sticky wicket that one.

"pre-existing"

That could imply that if a non-AMA club forms 1/2 mile away AFTER your club is in existance, it is ok to fly.

Or maybe it means "pre-existing" to the time you are flying at that moment?

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

Hey Charley,

Thats the most level headed, nicest thing, anyone in here has said in regards to the "park Flyer solution". If there were more like you talking about how to fix the PF problem it would be solved in no time. With an attitude like that PF's would be very willing to listen about the AMA, saftey rules...etc

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

And your very objective.........


Charley Says...

"I, for one, am well aware that there are many ways the we in the RC hobby can shoot ourselves in the foot. This is just one aspect of the many ways it can happen."

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

JR,

Here I am asking for positive input and you come back nit-picking over the difference between between reccommends and requires. Some help you are! What's the AMA going to do about some non-AMA flyers? Call the college and ask them to ban the flying? Some community good will that would create.

CR

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

Charley

You have presented yourself in this forum as something of an expert. When you post, other people read what you say. When you post information that is not factual, it gets carried past the confines of this forum.

You seem to be under the impression that the AMA or AMA members have some special right to the use of the frequencies. That is not the case. The park flyers, or anyone else, have the same right to use the frequencies. The FCC does not acknowledge the AMA or any other special group when it comes to the allocation of the frequencies. They make no distinction as to “who was here first”.

The bottom line is that not all RC equipment is safe to use in all situations at less than a 3 mile separation. What you posted could well lead to interference problems and all the other nasty things that accompany frequency conflicts. Consider your posts more carefully.

JR

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

JR,

I have never stated or implied that AMA members are the only ones who can use RC frequencies. That's a figment of your overactive imagination. Any RC user knows that the RC bands are open to ALL of the public.

In my input to this thread I have attempted to take a proactive approach. I invited input on ways to better interact with the local PFs. You responded by quoting AMA rules which don't apply to the situation. If anyone has tried to set themselves up as an expert, it's you and you've shown your expertise to be flawed.

What I have done is portray the local situation AS IT IS and my preliminary steps to address it. As it stands now I don't even know which frequencies the college PFs are using. Any attempt at frequency control is far in the future and first needs for me to establish some rapport with the PFs.

What you infer from my posts is your business, however far out in right field your conclusions may be. I resent your attempt to admonish me about the content of my posts. My best response to that sort of arrogance is to just ignore the local AMA gadfly.

CR

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

quote:

many of us fly over people when they walk there dogs i almost nosed dived into
a dog walkers head and he didn't even know it ...lol I'm just glad i have great elevator response


quote:

Shoot, I chase them down the street, hovering above them like a bee lol, I've been known to fly over to my neighbors sliding glass door and do torque rolls just to drive their dog crazy.


UNBELIEVABLE.......a small percentage of "the human" population never ceases to amaze me. It only takes one to ruin it for everybody. Its only a matter of time.

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

You guys need to settle down...you will keep worrying about it and soon you will realize...2 or 3 years down the line that nothing bad happened. A few people have been killed by Gas RC airplanes...at the local field some guy got hit and it cut his major blood vessles in his leg...then there was a huge lawsuit Unbelievable I say....it only takes one to ruin it...but wait...the field is still there...its buisness as usuall...and people are still flying everyday of the week. Accidents happen, whether by true accident or by some idiot doing something stupid like hovering over dogs...(thats kind of funny)...especially if the dog catches the wing and chomps it to bits...the hobby is fine and if a couple PF's screw up like some of the gas people have screwed up the hobby will be fine.

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

The difference is that the above accident apparently happened at a flying field dedicated to that purpose. A public park is a different venue entirely. People who go to a public park don't expect to have dangerous toys buzzing around their heads. They have a reasonable expectation that only the activities taking place at the park are the traditional ones. Now, this may or may not be fair but it's wthe public perception. Right now, people in my area have no experience of powered RC models and don't perceive them as dangerous. But let a PF cause an injury in a public park and the peoples' perception of RC models will change radically. If some irate citizen comes before them with a complaint about PFs, the city council will say, "Hey, we gave those RC people a place to fly those things, lets prohiibit them from being flown anywhere else."

I live near a park where I could fly my TM-400 but I won't do it. I've been scouting the place at various times of day. There doesn't seem to be a time when people aren't present. I'm confident in my ability to keep the model under control and away from people but what if something goes wrong with the radio and the model goes ballistic? I had just that happen years ago at the club field. I just can't take the chance. It's a shame because I bought the TM with the idea in mind that I'd have something to fly when I got the urge in the quiet of the evening and didn't have time to load up and drive to the field. I should have scouted the local park and school before I bought the model.

Cheers,

CR

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

If everyone was as conciensious of others as Chaley, we wouldn’t need AMA or anyone else.
The grass roots of AMA did not start from large-scale gas airplanes and turbines. Much of the grass roots began with control line airplanes and free flights. As aircraft got more advanced, the R/C’rs got pushed out of the communities, out to the rural areas. Many people have a long way to drive to get to an R/C field. Small electric’s are an easy way to bring model aviation back to the local communities instead of far away. Some people want to fly alone, some people want company and fellowship. Some people need representation some don’t. I am sure Charley can fly in a courteous manner not to be pushed from any community. And then there are those who would gladly ruin it for everyone else:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_20...tm.htm#2098270

It doesn’t matter if it is AMA or an individual group. People on their own without representation will often do things responsible people in groups would not. “Park flying” is going to be what people make of it. “To hell with AMA and People” will ensure it’s lack of support by the outside world.

Rules/Laws are reactive. It takes a proactive group to create and protect an environment from limitations such as the RC aircraft banned in Redondo Beach. It doesn’t matter if it’s the AMA or “5 Park Fliers R US”. If you wish to fly in your community you can leave it up to others to decide where you can and cannot fly or you can group, lobby a site, etc.

This is not to say everyone needs to. Some do, some don’t. I have now built a house in the country and my need to fly in the local soccer field not longer is.

Look at the skate boarders and guys on “trick bikes”. They were banned out of every park in our city. The skate boarders finally grouped, petitioned the city and now there is a park just for them and guess what! The guys on “Trick” bikes are not allowed.

Park flying will be what the people in the area make of it and it ain’t no clubs fault!

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

The clubs could be doing more...

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

My problem with the park flyer is frequency control. They fly on the same frequency that we, the club R/Cer does. So what happens when the neighbor 1/2 mile away flies his PF in his back yard and takes out your plane at the field. I think the manufacture or AMA or someone needs to see this as a real problem. Perhaps the answer is a different frequency for the PF. I don't know I just know something needs to be done there are more and more park flyers showing up every were.
Just my opinion
Bruce

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

Bruce-
It is widely recognized as a potential problem. AMA has provided kit box inserts to some model distributers. It could be more specific with practical guidance - tends to be more a sales pitch for AMA. A different group of frequencies for park flyers is a reasonable answer, but there is no organization today that will coordinate it. The 72 MHz frequencies are designated by FCC for model aircraft use, not for AMA club use, so the PFs have equal rights. You may be able to coordinate something between your club and local PFs, but it won't be easy. For one thing, you will probably encounter resistance from some club members that are unwilling to give up any of of the allocated channels as they regard the whole spectrum as theirs because they belong to AMA and/or "we were here first," or "our models cost a lot and PFs are just cheap toys," etc. The other side of the issue is contacting PFs and soliciting their agreement to a frequency sharing plan. Not easy either, as there is no organization, so even making contact with all that may fly within the 3 mi radius of your club site (about 30 sq miles) deemed a safe separation by AMA is problematic. Possibly through local hobby outlets, but you still have to consider that many PF suppliers are garage shop operations that deal only in direct sales via the internet. You may have a shot at something workable if you are in a low density rural area where people tend to know each other and what is going on in their environs, but in the burbs, I very much doubt it.
The long-term solution is most likely application of newer radio technologies, e.g., spread spectrum, already in the R/C car marketplace. If you are having interference problems with other 72 MHz users now, I'll suggest my hip-pocket plan for when/if it affects me: Get your Technician class license and go to the 50 MHz band.

Abel

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

OK, maybe so. What would you have us do, that we aren't doing now?

CR

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

A lot of people in here jump at a new idea as if it was actually going to happen. They hear something they dont like and automatically dismiss it if they dont agree with it. They say that they embrace everyone but when something comes up and they dont agree with it they dont really walk their talk. There isn't any one club that is the same and it differs from region to region, but a lot of these guys in here that say one thing and do another are in charge of some of these clubs. Everyone thinks a PF solution is needed? Its the overall attitude of people that needs to change...PF's arent the problem...its the people who cannot accept them that are the problem. Granted some people who fly PF's can do some stupid stuff...and some have brought up posts of PF's saying stupid stuff...but people who are in the AMA, and fly gas can do stupid stuff to. The point is, is that as long as you have these people acting like PF's are the only ones that can do wrong...and take that attitude to their respective club no solution will ever come of it. The hobby needs more people like you Charley...an older guy...who can take an opposing point of view and not jump all over it...like some others in the forum...or me who is a 22 year old kid...has no problem with what anyone flys...and is the future of the hobby. It is possible to create a great family feeling but the clubs could do more and the members to work a little on dropping some of their prejudice towards the younger generation and PF's.

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

I see some of you just aren't getting the point.

You don't have to be doing anything stupid. You just have to be in the right place at the right time when the right person comes along, and it's all over. The excuse of "I'm not hurting anybody," or, "I'm not doing anything wrong," doesn't float. They're going to throw some lame technicality of the law in your face and tell you that you can't fly.

If you bothered to read the thread I quoted, it wasn't the people doing stupid stuff that got in trouble. More often than not, they got away with it. It was the people minding their own business, flying their airplanes in a responsible manner, away from people, when the park was empty, that got run off by the cops or had laws enacted to ban their activity. People doing stupid things, or threatening to do stupid things, then bragging about it doesn't help, but "the 99%" are not immune to scrutiny by any stretch of the imagination.

Why can't they just realize that what you're doing isn't hurting anybody, and there's nothing wrong with it? Heck if I know. Psychologists have been trying to figure out why some people can't be swayed even in the face of facts and logic that prove that person's attitude is completely incorrect and unfounded. They can't figure it out either.

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

Why is everyone so worked up about PF's. You guys treat it like its the "End of Days" for the hobby. A lot of you need to settle down and just realax. You all go on and on about PF's and the funny thing is none of you will do anything about it. There is no PF solution needed...just let people fly where they want and if they screw up...well it happens. But your treating it like its the end all be all of the hobby and it's not. I think part of it is, is that some of you guys are afraid of PF"s...not in that they can ruin the hobby...but that they are becoming so popular it appears to you that it threatens your part of the hobby..."These PF's are going up everywhere...there becoming more popular then Gas...what do we do to fix it?" Thats what it feels like...your agruments for the danger of PF dont jive because most of us see PF's at our local field anyway....its very seldom we see a bunch of guys, or even one for that matter, flying in the park when compared to what we see at our field. For a lot of you guys this hobby is your life, when the hobby should only be part of your life...not consume all time when you get home from work...or the entire weekend...the problem is, is that some of you take this way to seriously and forget to have fun with it. Grab a beer and enjoy it

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

Hey you guys are welcome in the club and that's where you should be or at least take the responsibility to let the local club know if you intend to fly within 3 miles of the club. It's that one guy that's giving you a problem saying I'm going to fly in my back yard and don't care. You need to get on his case he should join the club. The club would welcome him or at least let the club know he intends to fly in his back yard so there could be a frequency control.

Again just my opinion
Bruce

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

bruce, ya do realise, that somewhat over 1/2 of all AMA members do not belong to clubs, let alone the non AMA members. club member guys are in the minority, and , as such, should have to adjust their actions to suit the majority of us, that are not in clubs.

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

good point mongo...if your info is right...

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

joey-

The stats mongo cited came from AMA Pres Dave Brown. Sorry I'm unable to back it with info from a reliable source. :D

Abel

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

I dont no if you realise it or not that about 100% of the people in clubs are members and why they should do any thing to accomadate non members is beyond me?

Lonnie

RE: The REAL park flyer solution
 

Joey,
You were doing so well in your discussion until this part of your thinking came to light. Must be those 22 years showing. Your quotes:

"me who is a 22 year old kid ... has no problem with what anyones flys"
"For a lot of you guys this hobby is your life, when the hobby should only be part of your life ... not consume all time when you get home from work ... or the entire weekend"

So I take it that you have no problem with what someone flies but you have a problem with how they live their life. NICE! Just food for thought.