RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

The same reason that members in my club that never fly, pay the same dues as those of us that do.

The same reason I pay full price for Model Airplane News and I don't read every article.

The same reason I pay school tax and I don't have any kids in school.

Need I continue?

And we all don't pay the same to AMA. Juniors pay $1.

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

Basic economics. If the group is large enough, like the people covered by an insurance company, there is a large enough group for the actuarials to have the stats and data base divide the large group into smaller groups based on risks and probabilities, and assign fees accordingly. AMA is a fairly small group of people. To have a tier based system, reducing the fees charged on portion of the group would have to be offset by raising the fees to the other portions of the group. People are over reacting to the current fees structure enough.

Besides, I don't see expensive country clubs reducing anybody's fees because they can only get there a couple days a year compared to other members who are there every day or every week.

So somebody living in a colder climate can't fly as many months out of the year as people in the warmer states? I live on the (Sunny?) South shore of Lake Erie, minimum of 4 months of snow, ice, near or sub-zero temperatures, and high Northerly winds coming off the Lake. Does this mean I'm entitled to lower rates than someone in Florida, even though I'm in my 14th year of AMA All Weather Flyer? And electrics have made it MUCH easier to get the October through April filghts in.

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

3dbob, you mentioned lowering fees for new members. Not sure if you meant everyone, or just the park-flyers. At any rate I am a new member as of this year. I found the trial membership deal they have going now to be very helpful, I only had to put out $19.95 which gave me 90 days. That enabled me to be a guest flier at the local club I am trying to join. They actually have a 75 member limit, but I'm at the top of the list for next year. By sending in the remaining $38 & change before my 90 days expired the original $ went towards my membership, now I am an open member. I realize that this not a price decrease, but it felt like one at the time, made it a little easier for me to join. While I am still learning to be a rookie rc pilot, I have grown up in this hobby. My Dad has been a member of the AMA for longer than I can remember, since the Korean war at least, where he flew the F-86 over Mig-alley. He's been building & flying Model Airplanes ever since. He is still a member of the AMA today, although at the age of 80 years young he no longer flies either real or model planes. I don't know the politics of the AMA well enough yet to comment on them intelligently, so I won't.
For me the insurance alone is probably worth the $60 a year. The AMA has allways been good enough for the man I respect the most in this world and it is for me too. I'm not looking for an alternative. For those of you who are, I wish you the best of luck & hope you find the kind of organization you are looking for. Mark T.

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

rcflyboy01- I think this reaches far beyond simply flying our models. It has to do with a love of aviation, model or full scale. I know some people who fly maybe twice a year but they all are the kind of people who attend numerous fly-ins, full scale air shows and anything else that has to do with aviation in general. Outside this forum, I have yet to hear anyone gripe about the price of AMA admission. In some areas, AMA membership is about the same as a carton of cigarettes, a good bottle of wine or a couple of dinners at the Red Lobster.
Adjusted for inflation, AMA membership should cost about $225.00 and in relation is much cheaper than it ever has been
It is a good investment, an investment in aviation and something we can all be proud of.
But, of course, one must love aviation in general and in particular model aviation.
To be to the point, any new association would have absolutely nothing to offer us.
3dbob

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

Elenasgrumpy- Sorry, I passed over your comments but totally agree with you. You made the point that I was making, that this is all about aviation, full scale or model.

I was not suggesting that we lower membership fees for newbies except for the guy that goes into the store and buys an electric, who has no club affiliation and knows no one in the sport.
This person can often self teach themselves and fly at a baseball field or in a park, not even knowing the rest of us exist. Often, the electic is bought for a son or daughter to fly, or so the excuse is.
On the other hand, if we gave him a lower cost membership, we would open the door to having to do it for all electric flyers. This might create a problem. Perhaps we could give them a one year, electric only, membership.

Frankly, I think the membership costs are very low in comparison to what we get.

3dbob

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

AMA is quite low priced. I just read an article in, I think, Sport Rocketry, on the cost of the High Power model rocketry. Just for the two National organizations, costs of a few other requirements, maybe $2000/yr. Then most municipalities and or insurance companies require you to have approved storage magazines if you want to store your motors at your house. Then there are various certifications for the different levels. And that is to be able to buy single use or reloadable rocket motors that can cost a couple thousand dollars for a single flight.
The NAR, National Association of Rocketry costs $62/yr. For that, you get an insurance program similar to the AMA, a bi-monthly magazine usually of less than 100 pages, a 4 to 6 page bi-monthly newsletter, and maybe a couple of technical committees. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I think rocketry is about the same size as model aviation. But, depending how far you want to get involved, maybe more expensive.

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

3dbob, I totally agree. $60 to cover my dumb thumbs for an entire year is a bargan by far!
Mark T.

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

50+AirYears,

Get a grip, High Power model rocketry and RC is like saying park flyers and Military jets are the same.

I have no issue paying my AMA dues but there are some issues with the AMA that just is not right. It is required at our field so thats the end of it.

Is the AMA over charging its members. I would say yes. If they would have made cuts like the rest of us had to, I do not think we would have to be paying $58 per year.

Crash99

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

Adjusted for inflation, we should be paying $225.00 a year.
Looks like we get a pretty good deal.

3dbob

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, if any new Model Aviation group comes into existance, and offers something as good as AMA for noticeably lower cost, I will eventually join, in addition to maintaining my AMA for a few years to make sure the two don't destroy each other, and that the new group can grow enough to survive and prosper.

If they can offer more for the same money, or maybe slightly higher price, again, count me in.

If, however, they are going to restrict themselves to RC only, or worse, RC Electric power only, that will be bad for Model Aviation as a whole. Don't even bother to invite me to join. That group would be too small minded and short sighted for me to bother with.

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

So, 50+airyears, you are telling all of us that if you had a pistol and knew how to pull the trigger, you would stand there and shoot yourself in the foot. And, at the same time, pull all of us down around with you?
I remember the mechanics at Eastern went on strike and eventually, they pulled the entire airline down and it cost them their pensions, savings and whatever, many of whom never found the high paying jobs they had before with Eastern.

Come on, shoot yourself in the foot but don't expect me to do the same.

3dbob

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

No, what I was trying to say is, don't try to get me pulled into a foot shooting competition. And that's what my impression is of what seems frequently to have been offered as AMA alternatives or restructuring. Self foot shooting. And as far as shooting, in over 45 years with guns, I've never pointed a gun at myself, never pointed a gun at someone else, never squeezed a trigger at anything other than a legitimate target, and never left a cartridge in an "Empty" gun.

What I was saying, is that if a viable alternative to AMA comes along, I would definitely give them a try after a time, but I would not just jump ship and immediately abandon the AMA. To me, a viable alternative would have to provide for my needs as a model airplane builder and flyer, not just as an RCer. They would have to be a "Big Picture" group, not just a peephole group.

Some years ago, I looked into joining the SFA. Some of my friends did join. They quit usually within 2 years. I tried to get answers to some questions about coverage beyond R/C, both on the phone and at their booths at Toledo, but couldn't get straight answers. Therefore, I came to consider them as not viable.

A group that wants me to join would have to prove to me they can give me what I need.

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

It took AMA 60 years, millions of dollars, thousands of old and new members and a tons of brain power to get where it is today. Why would anyone expect a new modeling organization to jump in and immediately be as good if not better than an organization with decades of experience? Sort of like Delorean (sp?) tried to do to compete with the big 3 auto manufacturers.

CCR

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

Exactly! Very unlikely. Not impossible, but I doubt that I will be around if it ever happens.

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

I think this issue needs more critical analysis. There are plenty of opinions... but facts are needed to get to the root of the problem. First, do we agree that the AMA has a problem? If so, can we state it clearly? I don't buy the organization age argument. There are plenty of examples of old poorly run organizations and new expertly managed ones.

TX

AMA 28 yrs

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

There are also many examples of old well run organizations and new poorly managed organizations.

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

True, so an organization's age may not be the best predictor of current service quality. Again, do we agree that the AMA currently has a service quality problem? If so, can we agree on what it is?


Here is another line of thought: Is the AMA still relevent?

If you received notice tomorrow that the AMA was defunct, how would you respond?

My first response would be to secure new insurance for the club and its members. The AMA safety rules would live on in our club's charter. For frequency protection, I would lobby the RCHTA (radio control hobby trade association) to get involved since they have a vested (economic) interest. The proliferation of special interest groups indicates that the hobby would survive to collapse of the AMA. As hobbyists, we tend to migrate toward others that enjoy our specific flavor of R/C flying. The AMA has very little to do with that. This forum and others keep the R/C community informed. Thanks to the growth of the internet and message boards, our community is closer that ever. Do we really need a magazine such as Model Aviation? Do R/C flyers care about the services AMA currently has to offer besides insurance?



TX

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

I first joined the AMA about 1964. There were complaints similar to today's then. Some people who complained got themselves onto the EC or other determinate posts. Complaints seemed only to maybe shift in intesity or to other areas. Strange, usually the real complainers never bother to try to take an active role in changing things.

IMHO, the AMA is as relevant as it was when it first started, if not moreso. Look at the big picture about what the AMA does, their relevance is huge. Forget about how the "Are only a big insurance co0mpany" or "They only publish an overpriced magazine".

If I heard the AMA went belly up, I would start trying to drastically reduce my RC holdings, and maybe, but I doubt it, look into RC Cars. I would hold onto the CL and FF part, at least a little longer. RC would probably be the first to disapear. In spite of a few large manufacturers and importers, a lot of this sport is still commercially represented by what might best be described as garrage, or cottage industries. Not really that much money available to represent and support us. My MRR and some display model boat building would start getting more attention from me.

Having been treasurer of an RC club for over 17 years with a 3 year break, I have been through several fights to raise dues to keep a club going. The situation would quite probably result in a majority of the members getting out of the sport, and a small surviving group having to start paying a huge increase to try to maintain a similar level of coverage.

While there is a lot of good information on the web, there is also a huge amount of rumor, innuendo and misinformation as well.

Do we need a magazine such as Model Aviation? To me, definitely yes. While there is a lot of information available on the net, I find that it takes a huge amount of time searching to find info, sepecially in-depth info, compared to the hour or two I spend a month with about 5 or 6 mags (MA, FM, AMI, FSM, MW, and sometimes MAN).

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

I understand your point of view. I, however, would never give up my R/C planes if the AMA went defunct. Perhaps there is a generational issue here. I have never really been interested in FF or CL. The body of AMA members have varying levels of expectations that they place on the organization. My primary expectations include : insurance (personal and land owner), flying site assistance and frequency protection.

TX

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

I wouldn't give up my RC if I didn't have to, but if we couldn't sustain the sport, I could be stuck with a lot of unuseable merchandise.

People who pay attention to what has been going on over the last 30 or 40 years should know how vital the AMA has been in those three areas you mentioned. They actually do have pretty fair resources to help out in many areas. But, they also have gotten a lot of criticism because they can't do the actual work for people, they can only provide advise and assistance.

Loss of the AMA might not cause the collapse of the model aviation sport and industry, but we might find out we don't like what's left.

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

True, we may end up buying our insurance from Hobbico.

TX

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

Any alternative would have to come up with HUGE numbers to buy into an insurance program that was economical. And, given the current lawsuit happy public with lawyers waiting in the aisles to sue someone, we might find that no company would be interested in the account. Any insurance Underwriter would take a look at what we are doing every weekend and leave with a brown spot in his/her britches. Let's face it, our claim track record is not great by any means.
You don't just go out and buy insurance for an account like AMA from just any corner drug store variety insurance company. And certainly not at the extremely low prices we are being charged now.
I know I'm repeating myself about MA but I just got in two model aircrft magazines and I had read all both had to say within a half hour. Counting MA, I get four a month. It at least takes me an hour or two to read MA because there is actually something there to read and not simply pictures out of a catalogue. Personally, as an off and on member since 1959, I am quite satisfied with AMA and yes, they have their ups and downs but every organization goes through the same problems.
3dbob

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

IMO Fliers1 was not suggesting a deletion of AMA, just a possible supplier of insurance. AMA changed suppliers several years ago because the supplier, Royal, far exceeded other offers.
Strange as it seems, that was after I spread a lot of word about a top AMA officer wanting to remain with Royal regardless of the expense. Actually Royal would have gotten the contract had it come down to just $100,000.00 over the next bidder. Royal froze at $200,000.00 above and lost the contract. Still AMA had no problem paying $100,000.00 (the dues of 1725 adult Open members) just to keep a previous supplier intact. :eek:


FYI here is some info regarding Premier Marine:

>>>>>>>>>>
Subj: RE: Hobby Club Liability Insurance;
Date: 10/5/2005 4:06:23 PM Central Standard Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)



Sorry, we only write business in WA., OR., ID., or Montana.
Dexxxx

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 7:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Hobby Club Liability Insurance;


Dear Mr. Buxxxx:

Found your web site:

Running for member election to Academy of Model Aeronautics(AMA) U.S. national organization for model aviation, as Executive Vice President / Chief Financial Officer.

Interested in your program. Currently AMA provides a Liability Program for some 175,000 members.

If I lose the election, I would still like to pass the options to the incumbent AMA EVP/CFO and Insurance Director.

Horrace Cain
AMA Life - 93 Leader Member
31619 Bohlssen Rd.
New Caney, TX 77357

281-399-xxxx
<<<<<<<<<<<<&l t;<<

If the company could supply AMA's needs at a better rate, and they have a suitable record and assets, then why not get their bid?

Now you know the rest of the story.

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

It would be interesting to find out what the AMA's actual exposure risk is. How many members out of 175,000 actually fly per year. Of those members that do fly, how many flights per year do they achieve? What is the incidence rate per flight? What is the claim rate per incident? What is the payout per claim?

How many claims have been made against land owners over the years? Is the frequency or amount of claims increasing? There is a lot of potential information here that would be useful in this discussion.

RE: Alternative to AMA?
 

I'm a supporter of AMA but if you belong soley for the insurance you should rethink that position. After being privey to the claims/lawsuit of an airplane related injury I can tell you the insurance provided through AMA is not a panacea. If you don't have a good health insurance plan you are risking a lot by stepping up to the flightline at your field. Coverage through your homeowners policy and health insurance provider is way more important than the coverage through AMA and any viable option is worth checking out. I would still maintain my AMA but not for the insurance.