For AMA??
 

Earned membrships: historically they have been for CDs who run an event each year, and a number of other folks who volunteer time to the organization.

But here's a question: when a person CDs a contest/event, is that a service to AMA or to his CLUB?

I can understand an AVP or a Contest Coordinator or a District VP: those are services to AMA. Somehow I think CDing a contest is more a service to the CLUB and perhaps it's the CLUB that should buy him his free membership. Perhaps the free membership should be a free CLUB membership.

Just some food for thought.

Bill

For AMA??
 

Bill,
I thought that and mentioned it some time back because on the surface it appears to make some sense. However, that thesis is flawed when you investigate the full implications carefully.

The first place where flaws start to bubble up to the surface of our observations is in cases where a CD might be able to motivate folks into forming a club. Also, things don't look the same when we review what it takes to motivate a club to take some action that benefits the AMA or the hobby. You know, like my club's annual Christmas children's charity event.

THAT is why I (who has refused becoming a CD) think the AMA needs to maintain the CD earned benefit. The real "job" of the CD is not to just run an event, but AS THE BYLAWS indicate, that person is the official point man of the AMA.

I doubt that changing that very much will be productive.

Jim Branaum

AMA LM 1428

For AMA??
 

Bill

I think that it is necessary to put this issue back into the context that the EC considered it in. Dave Brown explained the issue in a recent column. It was one of ALL of us involved with earned memberships giving up something to keep the recent dues increase to a minimum. I thought it was a very wise decision on the part of the EC to include themselves and everyone else that is involved with an earned membership in the action.

Whether the CD's service is to the AMA or a club was not the issue.

JR

Re: For AMA??
 

The subject of service to AMA or to a Club is NOT a question. AMA legislates the point.
AMA Bylaws Article II items (k) through (m) are very specific about competition and "AMA Contest Directors."
There are several AMA publications that define and or point to the responsibilities of Contest Directors, such as the Membership Manual and the Competitions regulations. For example the Competitions Regulations (Rule Book) specifically states, "The Contest Director acts as an agent for AMA in the administration of sanctioned events. There is a high level of responsibility as a result of this status. ...." Paragraph goes on to emphasize the needs for safety, fairness, and rule applications.

The CD is -- unlike the Contest Cord., VP, etc. -- in a position where decisions -- sometimes very quickly -- have to be correctly made and these calls in a 90+% of the time cannot be reversed. Other officers can screw up, redo, screw up again and still get by without knowing any of the rules they supposedly are to comply with. CDs that don't know their business do a big disservice to their clubs, as well as AMA, and the word gets around. They don't last long at the club level. Wouldn't it be nice if the same could apply to VPs and CCs at their level?

The CD doing a non-rule-book event sometimes has the most work to do. He is working for the least disciplined participants. RB contestants will help keep a CD straight if he administers wrongfully. The NRB fliers normally do not possess the organizational discipline and are sometimes very difficult to manage.
Example: At an IMAA Fly-In, I brief no aerobatics until after the aircraft has made an exit from the traffic pattern, and then not over the runway. Joe Nositall promptly goes out, snap rolls just after lifting off, comes around for a couple more over the runway. That never happened again and I did NOT have to yell. So he doesn't come to our fly-ins anymore. His loss. CDs have to make a call when a call is called for!!

While an event may be for the club, obtaining a sanction (a mechanism of social control for enforcing a society's standards c: explicit or official approval), is the work of an AMA CD and then performing the labor is exercising the objectives of the AMA Bylaws, therefore the CD is performing a service to AMA.

Mr. Lee, your food for thought would starve a man's intellectual capacity to naught.
May I suggest a change of diet?

Horrace Cain

GREAT
 

HORACE,
IF I HAD SET HERE ALL NIGHT I COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT ANY BETTER.
Horace you are my horse if you never win a race, good luck in the election,
godspeed

Dennis W. Martin Sr. ;) ;) ;) ;)

Re: For AMA??
 

BL, Not to change the topic here,,, Didn t the L/M's operate or become L/M's in this manner at one time? What is the Role of the Leader Member?

BV

For AMA??
 

Horrace, your inability to answer any post without becoming insulting is SO typical. To bad...

As to all of your quoting and paraphrasing and lecturing....you still failed to answer the basic question: is CDing a contest(i.e., a sanctioned event) of BENEFIT to the AMA or is it of BENEFIT to the club? Is AMA any better off by a CD running a contest or not? Is running a contest done for AMA or for the CLUB?

Yes, food for thought, so start thinking.

Regards,

Bill Lee

Re: Re: For AMA??
 

Hello, Bill;

My memory seems to say that when you became a CD, you also became a LM. But I believe that was changed some time back so that the two or now disjoint. (That's memory and may need correction.)

The duties of the LM are spelled out in the AMA Membership manual/Bylaws and that is where you would best read about them. The AMA Bylaws can be found in the Membership Manual starting on page 10.

OTOH, in spite of what the Bylaws state, there has been a dearth of communication with and/or use of the LMs within AMA. That is what Sandy Frank, our D-8 VP, is trying to set up with e-mail communication with the LMs of his District. We will see if he gets (to do/does) it and if any of the rest of the EC follows suit.

Regards,

Bill Lee

For AMA??
 

Bill Lee

Your memory does serve you correctly. Before the CD program was changed, years ago, the conferance of the title Leader member was automatic. When the change was made, the CD's were asked to submit a resume if they chose to remain a Leader Member. Lack of action at that point caused the title to be dropped. Toward the end of last year, there were approximately 3500 leader members of the AMA.

JR

For AMA??
 

Thanks for the confirmation, JR.

Bill

For AMA??
 

Bill Lee

In answer to your question as to whether a CD gives his service to the AMA or a club: It seems to me that the determination, in reference to the AMA, was made by the AMA leaders, a VERY long time ago. That it is indeed a service to the AMA. To redefine that position at this late date seems, to me, to be a wasted debate.

As to whether the CD serves a club, I think the answer is: it depends. If an event is staged as, for instance, a regional event, as defined by the rule book, it is possible that it might not even be sponsored by a club and is therefore not to the advantage of a club. Events need not be either sponsored by or held at club facilities.

Also, related to your initial question. An assertion at this very late date, by the EC, that earned memberships should be unlinked (i.e. VP's, AVP', etc) from CD's would be akin to saying 'We are of more value than you are'. While there may or may not be some truth to that, doing so would not be in the best interest of the image of the EC, and would make them look elitist, IMHO. There are enough misconceptions about the EC, as it is. Something like this would not be to the advantage of the AMA. It would certainly tarnish the image of the AMA leaders to a value higher than the out of pocket expense that those leaders would incur if the new fee structure stays in place.

After having made the case that we are all in this together (the dues increase), how could the EC now say otherwise?

JR

For AMA??
 

A classic debate technique: "We've always done it that way so it must be correct".

Perhaps this is the time that the "determination...made by the AMA leaders, a VERY long time ago" needs to be revisited.

Quite right.

ARE there some members of AMA that are more valuable to the organization than others? If the answer is no, then I suggest that you lobby the EC to revoke all of the "Fellow" memberships, to take back all of the service awards, to discard the Hall of Fame and ask for all of the recognition back. And you also need to go tell the District VP that the many hours every month that he spends isn't worth anything. Or the Contest Coordinators. Or teh AVPs. Why, even the District WEBMASTERS put in a lot of time that must not be of any value to the organization. :-)

You're d*mned right that it would PO some folks, but should it be done and te h*ll with the "image"?

They could say otherwise by simply doing it and accepting the criticism for what they feel is the correct decision. Just like they do on any number of other issues. Most of the time they're correct, occasionally not.

Regards,

Bill Lee

For AMA??
 

How about you start reading?

>>>>>>>>"While an event may be for the club, obtaining a sanction (a mechanism of social control for enforcing a society's standards c: explicit or official approval), is the work of an AMA CD and then performing the labor is exercising the objectives of the AMA Bylaws, therefore the CD is performing a service to AMA."
<<<<<<<<<<

In addition, in the first question you used the noun form "service". Then you change to the noun form of "benefit", then ask for whom the benefit is performed. Granted the word forms are synomous, however it displays better form when one keeps his question the same.

In any and all cases any AMA Sanctioned Event may benefit both the Club and the AMA, or just either one. The service is performed under direct authority of and FOR the AMA. Explicitly explained in the AMA Membership Manual, page 6, top 40% of page, in the Competitions Regulations, page iv, and in the Bylaws as previously specified.

As for insulting, Mr. Lee, methinks you do well enough for your own intelligence and no help is warranted from this dumb country boy. I only specify for you a direction to find your form of food.

Horrace

For AMA??
 

Bill Lee

Bill, do you know why it is a "classic" debate technique? Because it produces the correct conclusion. It is time tested.

In this particular case, this issue was revisited as recently as the July 2002 EC meeting and passed in the package unanimously. Now, you could say that it was part of the package and support is not unanimous and that would probably be true. However, the majority must have supported it or it would not have been part of the package.

Why don't you ask the members of the EC, individually, if they are concerned with the image of the EC? Obviously the EC felt is was the correct decision, as a group, in that EC meeting. Why would they change their minds now?

Correcting a minor mistake in the implementation date is one thing, changing the entire concept of earned memberships quite another.

JR

For AMA??
 

As much as I hate to step in here, I must make an observation several of you seem to be ignoring. It is fairly evident that the EC realized that they were taking resources already promised from hard workers and corrected that error.

Give these guys some credit for being human and making mistakes. At the same time give them credit for being willing to correct their errors.

Now in 2003 a CD gets to choose to do the work for less or just pay all of the money. That will be a choice.

The question about who is getting what (service or benefit) is really somewhat eggy since the AMA could not survive without the efforts (service[s]) of the over worked and underpaid (benefit[s]) Contest Director.

One issue that seems to be missing (as in ignored) is the fact that according to the by-laws, the Contest Director is an agent (on the spot representative) of the AMA. If we are to change this and limit it to VP's or VP's and AVP's;we will damage or organization since there will not be enough to go around in most districts. This is where the CD is invaluable as we now have it defined.

Jim Branaum
AMA LM 1428

For AMA??
 

That raises another interesting question, Jim.

If an elected or appointed AMA official observes a CD allowing Safety Code violations to occur at an AMA sanctioned event, what should he do?

Bill

For AMA??
 

Interesting indeed, Bill. This is an issue where you got your wish. The CD program was revisited some years ago, and what you have now is the result.

Back in the days when we did it like it has always been done, a potential CD had to find three other CD's that would vouch for his ability to run a contest. The CD's took that authority seriously. To become a CD you generally had to work all the stations in the venue where you wanted to become a CD, to prove that you knew how. For most CD's from that era,it took a year or so to convince three other CD's to sign off for you. The application then went to a VP. I don't recall the question that you now ask ever coming up back then.

There were a lot of complaints from clubs that did not have a CD. The complaint was that it was too difficult to become a CD. The EC revisited the issue and decided that it should take only any three open members, an open book test (which the AMA can not seem to keep current), and a rubber stamp by a VP , in order to become a CD. You now have CD's that simply do not know how to run an event properly. You might ask the same type of question about not applying rules properly.

The motive, over a period of time, has become clear. There are a lot of newer CD's that became a CD so that the club could request donations for fund raising raffles. The manufacturer's hid behind the lack of a sanction to deny donations to clubs running events without a sanction. CD's that do not have the background to run an event properly have had the CD designation bestowed on them.

As a side light, the manufacturer's then come up with other reasons not to donate. That's really not amazing when you realize that there are 2500 clubs asking for donations a couple of times a year.

Now, there is no choice but to revisit the entire CD program, once again. The previous re visitation has caused a mess and the whole program must be overhauled. The answer to your question is to fix the program, not to pick at individual CD's, unless of course, you are going to pin a tin star on each appointed or elected official and REQUIRE that one be present at each and every sanctioned event.

In the membership manual, it states that: Where the position is abused, the AMA needs to act FAIRLY, yet remove the CD designation, if such be warranted.

If you are going to try to have the officials to it fairly, there must be one at all events. Hmm, maybe they should run the events?

If this seems a little cynical, let's take a look at a real world situation. Look at the letter Red Schoenfiled posted, written by his VP under the 'bylaws input' thread. I can't condone McNeill sitting around any event Red might CD looking for an opportunity to nit-pick. I could give you other examples, but, that one suffices.

JR

For AMA??
 

My wish? What is that, JR?

<much off-the-point rambling snipped>

No suggestion to do any of what you have jumped on, JR. I asked a simple question, which you flat haven't bothered to answer. I'll ask it again for you:

If an elected or appointed AMA official is at an AMA Sanctioned event and observes a CD allowing activities in violation of the AMA Safety Code, what should he do?

Please try again, JR.

Regards,

Bill Lee

For AMA??
 

Ok Bill, You and I both know the correct answer to the question. Here it is. The EC, in a meeting Oct 27, 2001 had a motion put forth by the Dist V VP addressing exactly that issue. As noted in the minutes, the motion was changed after discussion and the following is what was passed by the EC:
*****************
Moved by J. McNeill (V), seconded by C. Bauer (VI), To accept the document Proposed Method of Handling Complaints re: CDs. (Below)
Complaints regarding a Contest Director (CD) while acting in their official capacity as a representative of the Academy of Model Aeronautics should be made in writing to AMA Headquarters, who in turn will forward to the VP of the District where the complaint originated or where the infraction occurred.
The VP would review the written complaints and contact the complainant if additional information or clarification is required.
The VP would then contact the CD, explain the complaint and request a response in writing.
The VP will review the complaint and the CD's response, and take whatever course of action is appropriate to resolve the problem, whether it is a warning or a revocation of the CD license. If there is a reprimand given, it should be in writing.
The CD may appeal any action taken by the VP, in writing, and request the matter be reviewed by the Executive Council.
The Executive Council could uphold the action taken by the VP, overturn it, or refuse to hear it.

Any elected officer of the Academy of Model Aeronautics shall have the same rights as a VP for purposes of the document.
***********************

Soooooo... the correct answer is that the offical, should he deem it an important infraction, should write a letter. NO distinction is made for a VP or any other offical.

Let me ask you something, Bill. Sandy Frank voted against the above motion. What is your point here? I am wondering if it might not be appropriate for you to get a new signature. Maybe something like

Bill Lee
The facts are mine, the opinions are those of Sandy Frank

Whatdaya think Bill?

JR

For AMA??
 

Sorry to jump in the middle of the bickering, but as a member of the AMA I think the answer is fairly simple. It doesn't matter if someone is an official or not, if anyone sees something being done in violation of the safety code it is your responsibility to bring to everyone's attention. If that means causing a stink, so be it. Better than someone getting hurt.

????????????
 

looks to me like that someone is trying to create a disturbance,
but as a longtime cd i always appoint four monitors to look for safety violations during my function, if everone would do the same you would never have to worry about a ama official or guest seeing or finding any violations.

Dennis W. Martim Sr.

AMA 7030-cd :p :p :p :p

For AMA??
 

P-51B

Yours is THE simple and reasonable answer. The one that has always been used.

The more complex issue was brought to a head when the Dist V VP wanted to be able to suspend a CD on the spot. That would leave the event without a CD, competitiors standing around, without a sanction, and on and on.

Feel assured that the simple question posted had more behind it. I wonder if Sandy Frank is looking to raise this issue again, because he was on the minority side of the vote in the EC, even though it has been decided fairly recently. If that is the case, it should be so stated by Bill. All of the issues should be disclosed and discussed.

JR

For AMA??
 

Oh, YES! The infamous "in your face" debate. IIRC, the original proposal was to allow the VP to pull a CD's license on the spot or some-such nonsense. Aren't we all glad that cooler heads prevailed and all we got was the motion you included?

Yes, that's the official AMA position, but that, again, does not answer the question I asked: what should the AMA official DO!?!? Go home and write a letter? Get in the face of the CD? Ignore the situation?

I TRULY want an answer: I don't have one myself!

(Thanks, P-51B, for your input!)

Unfortunately, JR, you are stooping to cheap shots and insults. Can't you ever discuss an issue without doing that? That kind of cr*p doesn't even deserve a response.

Bill Lee

For AMA??
 

Well, of course unless it's on private land and then nobody has any right to say anything....(paraprased comments of former EVP candidate Horrace Cain whom JR nominated.)


JR, your paranoia and conspiracy behind every tree mentality is showing!

Do you have ANY IDEA why Sandy voted as he did? No, of course you don't. But unfortunately you'll always continue to look for ulterior motives and conspiracies in everything.

Folks, be very careful accepting any assurances from JR! You will be sadly mislead if you do!

Bill Lee

For AMA??
 

Ok, Bill, I guess I must admit to believing in a conspiracy. I can see how the EC voted on each of the issues you have brought up in this thread. I have sided with the conspiracy of each vote taken by them. I'm guilty. I guess that makes me a conspirator too.

Oh, and Bill, just for the record, if it were me, on a private site, involving the AMA, I would still bring it to the attention of the CD, Probably privately. Nobody has pinned a badge on me, but, I would still have my input on a safety issue.

It seems to me that you took something out of a discussion on a non AMA situation and tried to apply it to an AMA situation when you quoted Horrace. I would not have my any input at, say, the TOC. That's another non-AMA sanctioned event, as was the one Horrace was discussing. I think that just shows some common sense.

How about explaining the following comments. The first makes a statement. The second seems to refute it.

[QUOTE]
***********
I TRULY want an answer: I don't have one myself!
***********
Well, of course unless it's on private land and then nobody has any right to say anything
***********

It would seem you did have an answer..... and another agenda, despite your protests otherwise. Once again, I will leave it to the readers to determine that for themselves.

Bill, why is it that you appear to be challenging recent EC decisions? Are you an AMA basher?

JR