Is noise really the problem....?
 

What is the true reason we are quickly losing our flying fields? I was recently told buy a few individuals that it was the noise factor. I really think that is a lot of bunk....

I've been back into this hobby for several years now and one of the clubs I belong to has lost one of it's fields in favor of a housing development, (land value has gone up significantly here in California again). Another club that I belong to is being encroached on by dirt bike tracks (and I'm being told that model airplanes are noisy?) One large club at an old airport just closed down in the area and one of the largest fields in the area is being threatened now. WHY? How could these clubs (we) lose fields that are in remote canyons or in wide open areas were very little population exists and be the noise factor? I just get sick to hear that another golf course is going in somewhere when I live on one and only see maybe 10 to 15 people on average go by a day. I begin to wonder sometimes how they are able to keep and maintain their courses.

What I really think is that it's all our fault because there is not enough of us trying to be friends with the community. All most of us want to do is go to the field and fly our planes and that's cool too. But I don't want to hear you pee and moan and complain when you lose your field........ I'm going to ask you what you could have done to prevent it.

I think the answer is that all of us that care about this hobby and are interested in keeping our air fields should be more active in the community by doing things for the public (outside of air shows) like after school programs and more things for charities, etc.

Do you think with AMA's help, that we would be able accomplish this?

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

There's probably more than one reason, but noise is certainly a real problem. Some people just do not like the constant buzz of R/C planes. This is especially irritating to them when it happens during times they want to sit outside and relax. It always amazes me that even when faced with possible field loss, some individuals insist on asserting their "right" to make as much noise as they want.

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

The die is cast. You hit the nail squarely on the head, but I'm afraid that the AMA, as far as doing anything sigificant, there isn't a thing they can do. Could a safety in numbers factor be the answer? Imagine telling every club they will have to triple their membership numbers to save the hobby. Get the picture? lol

CCR

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

You are both correct and incorrect. The case can well be argued either side. I am well aware of GLIDER Clubs having "Noise" problems. There are people that cannot tolerate seeing others enjoying themselves.
OTOH I used to wade-fish near a RC Club. As an active modeler, certainly I was, and still am, extremely biased to the modeler, yet I could understand how those constant buzzing pesty airplanes could spoil the serenity for the non-modeler. Piper chuck stated it very well. It is true.

Is the light dawning? IT's MONEY. MONEY, and more money, is the answer. For many years the modeler has been a "hobbyist", and never considered himself a sportsman. Far too many still do. These hobbyists simply do not want to pay their just dues. Look at the cost of golf. People here don't think much of going out and paying a $100 for a couple to spend a couple hours chasing a white pill. They do it once or three times a week. That is big money overall.

Now take the average RCer. he thinks it is OK to invest hundreds of $$$ in a couple machines, but BALKS big time at spending several hundred $$$ a YEAR to have a place to operate those machines. Far too many 'hobbyists' are in layman's words simply pure cheap s--ts, uh I mean cheap skates.[>:]

If modelers want to keep fields, then they need to go out and BUY, DEVELOP, and maintain their fields. To depend on others to fund their recreation is pure folly. In this society which we live in, depending on others is going to be a thing of the past in the not too distant future. Get a 100 guys together, each pitch in 2-5 thousand, form a IRC 501 (c) (7) corporation and you have a start in setting up a facility. You may have some older types with a lot of money to invest long long term (recent retirees with big payouts into IRAs are good) and they can finance a sizable amount of land for your Club, Inc. (Sterling Trust, Waco TX is a specialist in IRA real estate investing.)

There are many techniques to maintain the property, such as leasing the over-fly to a farmer. Don't be greedy, as he is maintaining a lot of your land for you and probably keeping it in an Agriculture Tax Basis. However first GET the property, and expect to drive a bit if you live in an urban area.

Forget AMA. The current AMA leadership has all it can do to just pour the water out of a wet boot with directions on the heel.
Forget the 'community' until you are a taxpayer. They might then listen.
Agreed that it is your fault.

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

The price of land keeps going up. They build houses where thirty years ago no one wanted houses. They build half million dollar houses overlooking active garbage dumps. no i don't understand that yet either. Most r/c clubs rent or lease their fields. a few have public parks. the more active the park the more federal dollars they get. they can put more soccer fields in. then they lose the field. The easy solution is buy your own field. Let's see 100 acres at a minumum of 50 grand and acre. Probably can't get a loan seeing as you don't plan on building on it. Taxes at who only knows per year. So if your lucky you may be able to lease the land to a local farmer who probably was leasing it before you bought it. only he will be leasing less of it due to you needing 5 or so acres for a parking area pit area runway etc. And i guess to answer your initial question. Yes noise is also an issue. Enough complaints whether justified or not. cause the local elected officials not to mention the landowner to no longer sympathize with the flyers anymore. The flyers that are present at everyfield i have ever been to that constantly break the rules regarding the suns in my eyes that's why i'm flying in the no fly zone over peoples heads in their backyards. Why they think their special i don't know. All it takes is for a few instances of crashing in public roads people's backyards houses etc. and it will get lucky for all the other flyers that take pride in their flying. not breaking the rules etc. Secondly some people just don't realize how loud their stuff is. take a 50cc gas burner full throttle stock type muffler. That can be one loud machine at full throttle. A lot of people will agree. The same 50cc gas burner with nice cannister mufflers and a effecient prop will sound like a totally different plane. Now take the ever popular 40-46 size two stroke. with a 10-6 prop and a stock muffler. In a full throttle dive the prop unloads and the noise level goes way way up. Second notice at your local field most of the times the full throttle dive is not done at the middle of the field but at the edges of the field. Yes you guessed it nearest the houses. Not to mention their are a ton of people convinced that pulling the baffle out of the stock muffler makes a ton more power. It may increse it a little. But i would bet that a better prop than what they are running would make the plane fly better.I have preferred APC props on almost all my planes due to less prop noise. Normally i run a bigger prop than most to cut the rpm down which also reduces noise. And i also practice throttle management. Not just for the noise but less stress on the airframe less fuel useage.

Sorry this got a little long But it's something i really get into Dennis

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

Noise can certainly be a problem. People who don't bat an eye at a neighbor running a chain saw/leaf blower/weedeater all day long will be up in arms if they hear a .40 crank up.

The harassment of animals is another problem. Chasing livestock and protected birds will get the locals out with torches and pitchforks.

Overflying buildings, especially after being asked not to, is a large part of it. I've known cases of homeowners using shotguns against the encroaching planes.

$$$ is also a problem. The average RC club/membership just doesn't have enough tax base to compete with, let's say, a sports complex or housing development.

Other types of irresponsible flying, like FWI or dangerous flying, can kill a club quickly, and give the whole sport a big black eye.

The attitude of "I have a right to fly anywhere, anytime I want to" has cost a lot of goodwill and fields.

A lot of this can be remedied by better public relations. Many people still see R/C as "men with big toys", and a lot of R/Cers haven't done anything to change this outlook. My club has several public relation programs in place, and one of our fly ins is a part of a whole town celebration. A club I just left had the same setup.

We are not an island, we're in the middle of a large community. We must work to be part of that community and not isolate ourselves. We don't need the AMA to do this, it needs to come from a local level. Talk to people and governing bodies BEFORE you crank that engine or write those club by-laws. Present yourselves as responsible adults engaged in a sport/hobby that has many beneficial returns. If you're told to not fly somewhere, DON'T! Stop flying, and try to legally address the problem. Don't rant and rave, don't get mad, don't assert your "rights" to fly your plane. You may not have as many "rights" as you think you do.

To coin a phrase from a song: "Just be nice to the gentlemen, Fancy, and they'll be nice to you." We're the underdogs. WE have to make the first move, and be the most correct, proper, polite, and legal. Fair? Maybe not, but that's the way it is.

Dr.1

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

In the end I believe it is noise that is to blame. Apart from the fact that some people seem to hate seeing grown-ups having fun at a flying field, it is noise that allows people to file complaints with authorities.

There is no coincidence that densely populated Germany is leader of the pack when it comes to electric flight. For many years German model flying clubs have had to fight against environmentalists, flying field neighbors and authorities in order to keep their flying fields. In the end the only way forward was to go electric and thus reduce noise quite a lot.

Those of us who love to fly with engines (gas, methanol, diesel) will have to accept the fact that in the order to keep our flying fields we will have to become less noisy. If in the public mind, model flying becomes too firmly connected with "noise pollution" I am afraid that we are fighting a losing battle.

/Red B.

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

From what I've seen in my area the loss of flying fields
has been 98% due to urban developement . No way to
stop that unless you have very ,very deep pockets.

An acre of buildable land around here is anywhere from
100 to 300 K . So, when your field goes away, you move
onto something somewhere else.

Regards
Roby

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

Sorry for the double post

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

Hossfly I think you hit the nail on the head, the future of RC depends on clubs owning their own fields. We spend thousands on equipment but complain about a few dollars for club dues. All my planes are worthless if I don't have a place to fly them. A few years ago there was an article in AMA about a few guys in Georgia that formed an LLC and purchased their own field. I know of another club owned field in central Ill that did it working with a farmer and the USDA on some conservation property. Park districts and municipalities are less and less interested in us, they want to sponsor week end dog shows etc that bring in outsiders and create big revenue for the district, not work with local groups where they must provide services, grass mowing etc, week after week, for a few old guys that do not generate any revenue to the district. We need to control our own destiny. Property is expensive, good mid-west farm land is about $4000 to $5000 per acre. However, if a few guys went together and bought 40 acres and leased 35 back to a farmer the investment is almost break even. Property near a town or city for housing developments runs $40,000 to $100,000 an acre, double and triple those #'s near large urban areas and for East and West coast locations, so yes we need to get away from town and accept we will need to drive some. The problem is convincing RC flyers that it can be and needs to be done. AMA hinted at the concept with that one article a few years ago but a program of how and where to start, from them or the hobby industry, might get more clubs to consider it.

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

Anybody ever think of over population as a big part of the problem?

Lonnie

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

There is no doubt that a club should own its' flying field and be run more like a buisness.

I think shares should be given to the members for each paid years membership. Those shares should be fully transferable so others can buy and trade them. As time passes the club's field will hopefully be worth much more $ and when the time comes(it will) to move even further out the club will have the capital to do so.

___________________________

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

Noise is to RC like slavery was to the War Between The States. It's a rallying cry. A very visible focal point that people on both sides can relate to. It's a hot-topic issue that makes it easy to eliminate the RC field/club. Usually, it isn't the REAL reason a field is lost.

A club owning their own land IS the ideal situation. However, the club also needs overfly space, either club-owned land or contractual agreements with the owners/controlling bodies.

It's all about $$$.

Dr.1

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

Some of you have PMed me about this topic. This is a general question and topic that I asked to all of us and wish not to highlight or single out anyone club or peoples. Therefore I wish not to respond your PM's please, sorry. But if you really must know, I did say here in "California", as I am most familiar with this area. And if it's really burning you, go look at my profile for where exactly I live. Really it's not important............

Now..., I was recently told that a municipal airport in our area, that IS out in the middle of farmland (cow land), is also being threatened to be closed for noise issues. I don't think that the cows mind (someone will say it sours the milk...) As we were there talking about this issue we saw a full scale (who made much much more noise than the two models that were in the air) fly over us, on his downwind leg and fly over a brand new housing development just to the south of the field.

Right now, here in my home, as I'm typing this, I heard a train blowing at crossing about 2 miles away, 10 seconds or so ago I heard a plane with a LOT of prop noise fly over my house and if I open my back door, I can hear noise coming from the freeway.

My point is there is a lot more ambient noise around than what models flying produce... Sorry, but I'm still not convinced............

I am still in firm belief that the land we are standing on is more valuable than our recreation or hobbies will ever produce with our current disposition. We need to become more than just another place were men (for the most part) can play with their toys. Things like after school programs touch the hearts of people whom have a louder voice than us or AMA and if we become friends with them maybe we can hopefully keep some of our fields. I was telling a friend just the other night that it's just L*B*R*L hysteria and that they will not be happy until all of us are sitting at home watching TV and paying taxes.

One person mentioned in a previous post "forgetting about AMA's help." WHAT...??? If it wasn't for us paying our dues...then they might not exist...? Like the FREQUENCY thing, I think we are going to need their help................

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

"My point is there is a lot more ambient noise around than what models flying produce..."

The word "ambient" has some touchy legal definitions. Most communities/towns/cities/counties have an "ambient noise level" ordinance. Noise makers such as tools (chainsaws, leaf blowers, etc.) may be exempt. Full size airplanes have very few noise restrictions, but do have altitude limitiations over populated areas. As long as train whistles meet dB requirements, they're exempted, too. If cars have working mufflers, they're ok.

As I, and others, have said, it's NOT ABOUT NOISE. That's just a focal point that's easy to enforce and/or abuse.

Can the AMA help? Sure, if they will. But the major effort HAS to come from the local club. They have to convince the population-at-large that they're a welcome sport in the community.

Dr.1
Dr.1

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

Airzona has as much unpopulated land as almost any state. Even if you owned a large parcel of land someone would build next to it and probably get the use of your own property restricted. The idea of buying 35 acres and leasing 25 back to a farmer is a good one if you live in a location where that is possible. Here and in SoCal it ain't possible. I'm originally from Iowa but spent my working life in CA. In Gila County,AZ where I live only 15% of the land is privately owned. The rest is Forest Service or BLM. When we went to the FS to try for a meadow not in use the Forester was downright rude. His exact statement was " I wouldn't give an acre of land to the Boy Scouts". We finally got a closed landfill used by the state. All was well until they changed managers for the site. Came in one day to find a large spread of dirt down the center of the runway. When we asked why he wouldn't even speak to us. They did cut another runway across the other end. Way too short and trees at both ends .
We're lucky I guess. We found a large spread of land and the owner lets us use it. It's a fair drive away, 13 miles, but he let us put in a long runway, there are no obstructions. All he asks is that we don't bother him about it. We mail him a copy of the insurance stuff from AMA and that's all he knows or wants to know. The location is close enough so that we will probably see some developer eyeballing it in a few years but for now all is well. No one is close enough to hear the noise. Some on is looking out for us.

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

"All he asks is that we don't bother him about it."

A club I used to belong to had a similar arrangement for about 20 years. All was well until we wanted to make an improvement to our clubhouse. Electricity. After the owner checked with his lawyer about his liability, we suddenly found ourselves paying $100 a month rent. Get a signed contract!

Dr.1

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

I think that we are agreeing on the same issue saying the same thing from a different perspective and I've couldn't have said it better.....

What really happened to Mile Square? El Torro?, etc. What is in the future for your club?

I'm not intending on bashing golfers here however, they are one of the largest land consumers. Golf courses can bring in big money, can and has women and children involved and fairly good exercise (that's if you don't rent the golf cart). I knew how to play golf before I knew how to fly..... They have no problem spending big money for dues and spending big money on equipment. They've got heros like Arnold Palmer and Tiger Woods, etc..... And they put just enough money back into communities and charities to keep them looking good. Who are our heros...?

The question here is what can we and AMA do together to change our outlook?......

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

The noise problem is somewhat solvable by us. Many of the other problems are not. Noise is often the first nail in the coffin. If park fliers were running racing 15's with megaphones there would be a total of three park fliers in the entire country. [&o] Ask yourself why parkfliers have become the majority, and gaining ground, at the same time flying fields are being lost.

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

It has always been about NOISE and PERCIEVED DANGER.

It was 50 years ago.

Did you really expect to make BIGGER planes with LOUDER engines and think you could have LESS problems ????

Some of you are LARGE spoiled children who want THEIR way just like they had it as a CHILD.

Grow up or lose ALL your playpens.

Some of you do not see yourselves as MOST of the rest of the adults do.

TOO BAD.

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

Holy Carp![X(] At that price I would sell my little airstrip! Around here, those fools wanting $5,000 an acre are known as thieves. We've been having a hard enough time finding (financing) a larger field at an average price of $1,000 to $1,500 per acre. I agree, it must all be about MONEY.

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

74.

In my 60 years, New Jersey has gone from fields, to $700,000 Condo's.

No more than 20 years for your area to be overrun by wealthy immigrants.

It has happened here.

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

There are a fair number of such facilities in this area. The pictures in the post are of my main club which owns that property. In the 10 years that the club has owned the property, the acreage price in that area has almost doubled. With the current appraisals the Club now has a very good financial basis. There is a system of membership months for those that remain in the club and pay their dues by Jan. 31 each year. Easier to keep track of than stocks and if a guy leaves the club, then so be it. Plan was copied from another local club that owns its property.

Because Golfers do spend money, they can afford to obtain the publicity to have heroes. As long as you people refuse to elect AMA officers with vision and the focus on making this sport well known throughout the media and government to establish the FAI programs as our first heroes, then you will continue just where you are. The current AMA elected officers have other directions. Read their 'minutes' for the past 10 years. [:'(]
Joe Beshar, staff flying field person, has made some inroads into obtaining fields on the garbage dump lands, but other than that nothing has been accomplished from AMA.

It all boils down to getting rid of this "hobbyist" crap and making yourself a sportsman, doing things yourself, and paying your way.

edited to correct D-A mistOOK!

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

If you abide by the noise ordinances in your area, then you cannot be forced to sell your property due to noise.

If you fly in a parking lot, you will eventually be forced out due noise and disturbing the peice. That will be the complaint. That parking lot in the middle of nowhere WILL have developement around it sooner or later. The land grab is here. Actually the land grab happened years ago. Cities are full of soccer fields and soft ball diamonds, and parks. You paid for them all. You keep paying for them. The cities grew up around these parks and expanded outward. You got pushed out with the new growth. And where are your parks ? You didn't get any. We are too few to be recognised. ( I know there are a few exceptions ).

Answer : Like Horrace said, drive out in the country and buy the land now, while you still can. And buy enough land to provide a buffer around you so that one day the new neighbors can't prove you are violating any noise ordinance.

Other answer : We all start to fly Parkflyers and electrics.

Both are happening at the same time. Some of us are preparring and purchasing land. Others are finding alternative ways to fly in their neighborhoods. Its up to you to decide which solution serves you and your hobby best.

For many of us, this is old news. We saw it coming, then got run over by it. For many of you , the reality of realty is just coming into focus. And for many out there, this is abstract and not concerning.

RE: Is noise really the problem....?
 

i can agree with you on that one. my flying site is right on top of a capped landfill with a transfer station right next to it and a housing development just went in right next to us, we havent had any complaints though. the only time when we had complaints though was when this one old lady lived on that land. we nearly got kicked off the site, then she died and the children sold the land and a year later we got a housing development. were moving the runway farther away from the houses and were trying to remain low key, so far its worked. hopefully we wont have any complaints about noise, luckily, the loaders and bulldozers at the transfer station are always running nonstop and are much louder then our planes.