RE: AMA E Membership
 

[Removed by author - due to error in post

RE: AMA E Membership
 

As I understand the proposal the eflight guys would be AMA members but would
carry less insurance. since they are AMA members I feel they should be able
to fly at any club site.

Segregation of model types is very much alive with the turbine waiver thing
I for one would like to see that stopped. I dont want to see another group
segregated too.

There are many AMA members that find it difficult to a get turbine waiver and find
a place to fly there jets, many clubs discriminate against turbines.

I would like to see a system where the AMA does all it can to unite all members
however I do understand there may be a few select sites they may not be suitable
for every type of model. that being said I dont see a real problem with paying
a different rate baised on the type of model you fly as long as you allowed to fly
where you would like.

As for as enforcement it would be impossible to 100% enforce who fly what. lets
say someone with a park flyer membership was flying a turbine and had an accdent
if they didnt have enough coverage in there plane they would be sued for the rest.

As long as the club didnt condon what they were doing they would not be liable.

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Hey STLpilot ,
Notice anything funny about this thread?

RE: AMA E Membership
 

As a club president, I believe this e-flyer membership is going to cause many problems for me and my club. We want to reach out to the "park" flyers, and get them into the practice of flying safely. The problem with park flyers is that they are often flown in locations where it really isn't such a wise idea. 2 lbs moving at 60 mph is still a hell of a whack if it hits someone. The local city park or school yard is a tempting spot to fly, but is it really safe? When these park flyers use these locations, they generate a lot of interest from local children, increasing the risk. What happens when parents get upset and start speaking to local politicians? Next thing you know, model airplanes hit the local news, politicians get involved, and the clubs suffer from additional regulation, or get banned outright.

Channel control. There is a park approximately 1 mile from our new local field. I know my neighbor likes to fly his electrics there. I've been trying to get him in the club, and warned him about the possible frequency issue. He's thinking about joining, but hasn't committed yet. In the meantime, we're doing our level best to monitor frequencies when we're flying. I'm sure there are others using that park.

Club dues: Will these E-flyers demand reduced club dues? Ain't gonna happen in my club.

Enforcement: Who decides that a member has the proper AMA membership for the class of plane being flown? We don't have someone at the field 24/7. We're trying to boost comraderie. Having to check each persons AMA card before they fly doesn't promote this.

I agree the AMA needs to do a better job of supporting and promoting smaller park flyers/electric flight. Tiered membership/reduced fees looks like an easy solution, but the real answer is better marketing and sales. A strong SIG within the AMA, electric/park flyer events at current AMA clubs, better education regarding how to fly safely, working closely with manufacturers to establish standards for park flyers to prevent interference issues with nearby clubs are really whats needed.

Brad

RE: AMA E Membership
 

The update last night must have axed a page or two from this thread. Bummer. Admin - anyway to get the complete thread back up?

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YES!!!! Must be one of them darn RCU/AMA Forum conspiracies again.

I notice something in this forum and every other forum. They lost about 12 hours worth of posts during the update.

Nice try.

RE: AMA E Membership
 

Did you even read the proposal? The whole point is to ORGANIZE and ESTABLISH not just the fliers, but also smaller, recreational areas to fly. If you think the proposal is not a good idea, you just shot yourself in the foot because now there will be no ORGANIZATION at this park near your field!!! First you establish the ORGANIZATION then you can set the rules for the park nearby.

That's great clubs are free to do what they want. I don't hear E pilots yelling bloody murder. They will be given options to own and E ticket and to join a club if they CHOOSE at a certain price OFFERED to them.

When a member joins a club, they show their AMA card. If their full give them red, if they are E ticket give them blue. It's really that difficult???

And this is exactly what they are trying to impose! How do you create a SIG within the AMA if you don't keep or capture the audience in the first place???? They are trying to do something to get them into the AMA, because they are leaving or not joining.

ARGH!

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"When a member joins a club, they show their AMA card. If their full give them red, if they are E ticket give them blue. It's really that difficult??? "
YES!
As other posters have asked, and it hasn't been answered yet AFAIK, what procedure are clubs going to use to check fliers at the field for their blue card or red card in order to insure that they're flying what they're "authorized" to fly?
There's no one at the field 24/7, and, while there's a few in every club that enjoys being the "field Nazi", most members don't want to get involved in club activities, let alone being the "card checker"; they just want to pay their dues and fly.
Jon

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OK then how in the heck do they do it with turbines! You guys don't hang your cards on the freq boards when you fly? Make the E ticket neon orange if you have too. Make them wear a cow bell if your color blind or wear a dunce cap if intellectual capacity of the club is not great enough for the neon orange card or cow bell method. How many members of a full chartered club will even hold an E ticket?? 2 maybe 3, is there that much paperwork involved?

How do they establish any rules at a field other then the AMA guideline rules? It would just be another rule!!!! Rules are there to be taken responsibly and if the person does not act responsible at the club with the rules they get their walking papers, you don't need a field nazi. Do you need a field nazi to stop pilots from hovering under the shelter? No, club members need to be responsible and that responsiblity comes from the top down President, VP, Safety Officer etc etc.

I mean at least one of your two is a club President, do what a President does and LEAD and INTRODUCE new ideas in the better interest of the club. Don't complain because something new and spooky is now coming into the RC industry. "Many problems for me and my club" I mean come on.

You guys have set out to make something that is very simple totally difficult.

RE: AMA E Membership
 

Jon-

It sounds like it wouldn't work at your field. There is a simple answer to that. Give the clubs the option of participating in the program or not. That is exactly the way it is planned in another program intended to attract new blood to AMA that was proposed duing the same EC meeting as the one discussed in this thread (though conspicuously omitted from the unofficial minutes). Clubs that have an interest in bringing in new modelers to the sport, their clubs and/or AMA will find a way of overcoming the problems you cited if given the option, and I'm quite certain of that. AMA doesn't need to tell them how to do it, as radical as that may seem to some.

Abel

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"OK then how in the heck do they do it with turbines!"
We send in a copy of the waiver when we renew our club dues. This way the club has the waiver on file.
The turbine community is small: my son and I, along with one other person flies jets at the field.
How many e-fliers-who knows, it could be 2, could be 20. If it were one or two, I would agree it's not too bad a problem, but from the e-mail I'm sure AMA is looking/hoping for a LOT more, which would cause a problem.
Anyway, it's important that no matter what your position on this subject, you should respond to the AMA e-mail. In the past, one of the complaints with AMA is they don't ask the membership's opinion on various issues. To their credit, they have asked and the membership needs to make their opinions known on this subject.
Jon

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TERRIFIC! You already have the system in place now, then it should not be a problem. If it's 1,2 or 20 then deal with it, don't run away from it.

Of course the AMA is looking for a lot more. You think 175,000 members is a lot? That's like nothing. Also how much growth over the last 10 years? Some if none while the technology and products coming out are increasing by hundreds of percentages. It's attitudes like "it can't be done" "it will ruin our club" "too much paperwork for me" is why the AMA is falling apart.

I'm am so glad my other hobby is full scale flying. You never see crap like this. You see so much coming together of the sharing of ideas to make life better for EVERYONE, including those or have little or no ability to fly airplanes. Why is it that the AMA members have to be so much more small minded then EAA members? There is no reason for it, and I just can't understand it. Finally the AMA does something to help us come together and you guys just tear it apart. Lovely.

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Hmmm, how bout some thoughts from the "Outlaw" side of the fence.
Just read through what posts were still here from the crash of the forums yesterday.
Some points I see on the offer to join the AMA electric program.
#1 reduced cost is not going to sway me, as I have electrics that are way over all of the imposed limits, so I would have to go full membership to join.
#2 Ok benefits to joining, insurance. I have homeowners and BC/BS and AFLAC, so that's no real benefit, as AMA coverage is secondary by my understanding.
#3 a magazine, don't really need another subscription laying around, would be much easier to have available online. Also I don't really care for rubber, CL, FF or such so why read about them.
#4 joining a club, It's pretty obvious that we the outlaws are being looked at down your noses. Did we ask for special rates or treatment, I don't believe so, I think it's more we want to be treated just the same as you. Sorry we don't follow the same flight paths, but does that make us wrong and you and the AMA right? These forums on AMA and Outlaws all seem to go the same, we are wrong with our "toys" and how and where we fly.
I'm almost convinced that maybe it's that we don't follow the "Good Old Boy" philosophy that is so ingrained in the AMA, that has you scared of us.
#5 need "the card" to fly. At least for me, I don't need a club field, so why do I need the card. Sure I fly at the local soccer field sometimes, not a club field for 30 miles minimum.
Also I own over 200 acres of ground with another couple thousand acres surrounding it that is posted. Why should I have to stand in line to fly?
#6 AMA and the Feds, score one for the AMA on the fight they lead. Problem with that though is most outlaws don't understand about what the AMA does.

Ok so I showed you some of the other side of the fence.
Now, instead of making us "special" members, how bout looking at making us regular members.
Instead of looking at us as the "red headed stepchild" how bout you look at us as fellow flyers. Are we all not in this hobby or addiction, for pretty much the same reasons?
If you want us to join your group, then how bout making an effort on your's and the AMA's part to welcome us in and show us why we need to join you. Heck just because our toys are electric, doesn't mean they cost any less to build then most gassers.
Could you just imagine what the influx of what, 2 million and growing, outlaw flyers would do for your group?
Hopefully the AMA is finally accepting that electric flight is the possible future, and realize that some new blood infused will help them to grow to become the force they should be.
Go back and read your posts, look at it through the my eyes. Not a very pleasant group of posts for a wood be member to be reading.
Like I said at the beginning, just my thoughts from the other side of the fence.....Hmmmm that kinda says it all doesn't it? We are on opposite sides of a fence. Maybe we need to work together to tear the fence down.

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How can insurance for park flers which are flown in populated parks, streets, and vacant lots going to be cheaper than planes flying at controlled flying fields? To me, the rate of incident and risk seems twofold.

I sent this question on to the AMA for I see a lot of problems with such a program. Will the rubber powered and free flyers be under this program too?

Scott

RE: AMA E Membership
 

I can answer that question right now for you, no need to wait.

Nobody is forced to join a club when you get an AMA card. You can do the exact same thing with an AMA card for $58 and fly planes in the same areas your noted above up to 55 lbs traveling at up 250 mph and still be covered by AMA insurance. This $29 insurance is for a 2 lb plane traveling no more 60 mph. So you think the incident and risk for a 2lb plane at 60 is worth twice as much as a 55 lb plane traveling 250 mph????? Like I said, they have underwriters that make these determinations for price vs. what you get for the money.

Who said the intention of the e ticket was to establish "anywhere" flying, in fact they are trying to establish new, smaller e fields under the new policy, with a little help from the AMA members (ha, what a joke that is). Take the time to read AND understand what the AMA is trying to achieve, in the LONG RUN, you know VISION.

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"Why is it that the AMA members have to be so much more small minded then EAA members?"
Simple, all the members in the EAA joined because they wanted to.
Most AMA members join because, in order to fly at most fields, they're required to belong to the AMA.
Different mind set completely.
Jon

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glacier girl,

i was in your shoes and realized that if i did something wrong and hurt someone or did some major damage, yes my home owners and umbrella policy would cover me. but at the same time if i did it at a park or soccer field were joe average was playing it could/would hurt the sport for all.

so after doing alot of thinking i realized i needed to join AMA and fly at a club field where if something happened it was with/to another flier who knows and understands what CAN happen with these planes.

alot easier dealing with a fellow club member who UNDERSTANDS then an irate joe average who is going to sue me and bring alot of negitive press to the r/c world


again just my 02c worth.

EDIT= its not about MY RIGHT TO FLY WHERE I WANT its about keeping us all flying.



bassman

RE: AMA E Membership
 

If you're a member of a club and served in ANY capacity what-so-ever you know that it's not as simple as putting a blue or red card up to fly...

I think it would be good to get the E flier only crowd into the ama and hopefully the local clubs. I believe a lot of the E fliers would get excited about other aspects of the hobby.

I just don't think it will work very well by creating a new set of rules for the club to be responsible for. Yes, it's a headache. If you know anything at all about the ama's past having to do with rules, waivers, dual charters, insurance and exclusions, and/or the local club bylaws/rules generated by the location of the flying site, you know it can be a headache!!!

The ama has developed a proposal which looks good to them, but they're not going to be the ones putting it into practice. The ama will offer it, put it into the charter of the clubs and the clubs will be left with the monitoring... The ama at that point will basically be out of it. The club will be left putting the pieces together and if they have a problem then they'll be putting their field in jeopardy which would ruin it for everyone!! If you know anything about clubs, you would know that many clubs are worried about loosing their fields for any type of accident or violation. This would definitely put extra tension on the club.

As for the jet waiver question. EVERYONE knows who has the jets!!! Once that person is checked for the waiver it's extremely easy to remember whether they are qualified or not. Our club has way over 100 members and there are 3 of us that have jets. E fliers on the other hand is totally a different story. The jets are out numbered by E fliers 10 to 1 easily and that's now, before the proposal passes after which we could even have upward of 40 E fliers. That's definitely a little harder to keep track of.

Much easier to keep track of the 3 jet guys than the 30 E fliers!!!!

The biggest problem is the park flier limit. If there wasn't a limit to the size of the plane then there wouldn't be any problem integrating everyone together!!!

The ama wants the extra income generated by the E fliers. I think they need to compromise and make 1 amount of dues in the middle of the 2 and have 1 membership;) They would gain a lot more members that would make up for the smaller dues :D That would be good for everyone!!!

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Boy you couldn't have said that any better "different mind set completely", how true. But one thing your mindset is incorrect about is the EAA and being a member thereof and it's benefits. I've belonged to the EAA much longer then the AMA and it's not much different at all, other then the fact it's members actual care, support and have repect for it's governing body.

You most certainly need to be an EAA member to attend MANY events and belong to MANY EAA clubs. You get a magazine just like the AMA. You even get EAA insurance which is bulk rated for all EAA members to keep the rates WAY down since homeonwers will not cover your airplane like it will for model airplanes. There are EAA chapters, events, and there's even the EAA museum. Does any of this sound familiar?

If you want me to be blunt about the difference I will, it's education. EAA pilots are more educated and have more respect for aviation then AMA members do. Although you see much bickering in the EAA, you don't see so much of a concentration of negativity, poor leadership and disrespect for the hobby.

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You can sugar coat it any way you like but take away the insurance - as if we lived in some fantasy land - and what percentage of people would belong to the AMA nowdays? A lot less.

What I can't figure out is why a park flyer would even touch the AMA. Seriously what is a park flyer (a true park flyer not somone who is an "electric flyer") going to reap from joining the AMA on an individual basis. I only belong to the AMA so I can fly at fields requiring AMA membership when I visit other fields (not required since I fly out my back door 99% of the time).

Take a look at it another way. How many members of say the IMAA would be members if once or twice a year they didn't go to a big bird fly in and had to join on the spot to fly that day? A lot less.

In the post that got killed you said the EC wanted to push this thru but members were complaining so it was gonna die. Well heaven forbid the AMA actually do what the members of the AMA want.

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Yes I served and yes it can be as easy as a different color card. I belonged to a club that had part time residents and rates and their card was a different color, this is why I suggested it. It wasn't rocket science, it was very simple. There is nothing that says that clubs that can't handle, won't offer it. Even better for the E pilots to be forced to find their own ESTABLISHED, CONTROLLED and ORGANIZED areas to fly. Again you guys are making something so simple sound so difficult.

I propose they test market in the region of the country where they have the highest IQ median to see if they can handle the "workload" of issueing 2 different types of cards. I know it will be such a big switch from the norm.

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Wasn't it Frank Tiano that just recently in the Jet forum had a big thread about how at his recent event (Florida Jets??) that some of the flyers said they had waivers but actually didn't and they were allowed to fly - because everyone knew them and they had flown before etc...

I guess it will work if a lot more work is put into it. Just for instance I've never flown at a field that required me to put my card up on the frequency board. I've flown at my fair share and usually you put up something with your name on it like a clothespin which is pretty popular here and take the clothespin with your freq. on it and clip it to your transmitter. Seen that or variation of at probably 10 sites I've flown at in recent years. In fact I'd say that probably 75% of the people I've flown with at fields requiring AMA membership don't bring thier card at all, as the secretary keeps track of it at the end of the year, we used to have to send a photo copy for file each new year.

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I like how you make it sound as if it's gonna be easy for E-flyers to find an area to fly, establish their own flying facility, and organize a club etc... again WHY? They can go fly in a park, a football field, a parking lot - why would they need to do that?

I'd say a large part of the people who fly electrics do so out of convenience so they don't have to put up with that kind of hassle period.

I know my flying enjoyment went up 1000% when I was no longer required to fly at an orgranized field with politics, maintenance issues and old farts telling me even when flying alone I was not allowed to fly anything but the patterne etc....

Hell the first electric I got was so that I could fly it in my yard and not hassle with all that other crap.

Your IQ remark was just over the line, just because you seem to disagree with the what appears to be the majority of the AMA members now you result to lowbrow attacks - as if your opinion is "divine right" and the rest of the AMA members are idiots for disagreeing with YOU - how dare us.

Maybe more people would be inclined to listen to your argruments if you made arguments based on fact and supported it with theory that was well thought out instead of telling us how stupid we are for disagreeing with you on a relatively minor arguement within the AMA.

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Well lets see if I can answer that question. You live in "Rural Texas" as per your avatar, while more then 50% of the population of the United States lives in "Urban America". So now lets try to think about OTHER PEOPLE if you can please. Some of us don't have the luxury of driving 10 miles to 5 fields or flying out our backyards.

Heck I don't need to be part of the AMA either, I don't need to be part of the EAA, NJAEC, PADI, NAUI and a bunch of other organziations I belong too. But I belong to these and other groups so my hobbies will remain strong.

What about freq control. What if that football field is 1/2 mile from an RC field. Try to establish organization for the park flyers! What don't you understand about that?

Did I single anyone out, no. I guess that would make me part of the problem too, wouldn't it?

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No, it's not unless you're not concerned with your club at all!!! At the VERY least it affects the treasurer, then there's the person that handles the membership registration, then ...... In a fantasy land you are right. A majority of the membership though lives in a fantasy land that never has to patch the runway, or fix a broken mower, or mow the grass, or organize the events, or handle irrate neighbors, or settle accidents, or...... Fantasy land!!!!