FAA regulating model airplanes
 

Well since some of us don't think that the FAA has authority over model planes, this Sheriff's department got a big awakening. Who said model airplane flying is not regulated by the FAA?

http://www.engadget.com/2006/06/22/l...tion-possible/

The real question is when is something considered an RC plane and when is it considered a UAV? I guess the FAA will let us all know in the very short future as agencies and guys like you and me like take it upon themselves to play with fire in the FAA's airspace, i.e. anything above ground level.

If I want to fly an RC plane with a remote and camera link, whose going to stop me in a town that allows RC flying...I guess the FAA is. I mean I don't HAVE to fly at an AMA field...do I? Seems like a grey area may turn very red in the near future.

This topic was the exact discussion that the AMA presented and discussed with the FAA not too long ago. So it would be REAL nice to keep this thread opened.

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

Well...that is not a model. It is an APID (aerial privacy invasion device). And yes, has absolutely nothing to do with the AMA.

Bubba get him!:D























clink

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

Maybe this is where the 55pound limit comes into play.

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

The FAA doesn't consider that in the same class as a model airplane.

Weight limit and visually flying the model are 2 of the big things that separate us from the UAVs

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

The weight limit is one thing. It's also one of the reasons for the restrictions on autonomous flight by AMA. Since a UAV can be an affordable terrorist tool, there has been greater scrutiny on such things lately. To my knowledge, AMA is trying to make the case that if an airplane falls within AMA limitations, then it should be excluded from the UAV regulations and requirements. Basically, AMA is offering to handle the little, fly-by-sight stuff in exchange for not having each pilot have to endure getting his plane certified for use.

This thing scares me because if the terrorists ever DO employ an RC aircraft in an attack, we will be in for a real fight to keep our hobby as open as it is right now. It's not a good thing to get put under the anti-terrorism magnifying glass.

(Edit: Erk....barracudahockey beat me to the punch. Oh well.)

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

Well that plane is only 3 lbs, what is the class limits?. And as far as having visual on the plane where does the FAR state that? I've looked and can't find it.

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

Here's a thread that might be helpful from a while back:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3245422/tm.htm


50%

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

I know several people who work for defense contractors who are making, and selling, VERY small UAVs to the military. AMA dreamed up the 55 pound limit, nobody else had anything to do with it.

For those of you who think the FAA has nothing to say about our models I would refer you to the following clubs:

Pomona Valley Model Airplane Club (PVMAC) in Chino, CA
Harbor Soaring Society (HSS) in Costa Mesa, CA
The El Dorado Silent Flyers (EDSF) in Long Beach, CA

All three of these clubs have been told very explicitly that the 400 foot altitude cap spelled in FAA Advisory Circular 91-57 is the law and that the FAA intends to enforce it. So argue all you want to amongst yourselves, but the FAA absolutely says that they can control our activity. Period.

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

I just got a few opinions from the powers that be and here is what is expected

See this post:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=1804312

and this one

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=4408560

You can bet that I will be taking a much closer look at both the AMA and FAA web sites to see if they are intermingled in any way.

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

Thanks for that info, good stuff.

400' is one thing but what about distance or line of site this is where it can get very grey. Let's say I'm flying a RC plane from the top of a water tower with a pair of binoculars does the FAA has any kind of restrictions on how far I can fly that plane from myself? This is where things can get interesting. Or do all UAV's have to be flown at levels above 400' AGL?

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

Well how did this one make it 5 pages long and still not closed. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3245422/tm.htm

I remember another one even more recent where some AMA rep went to DC to discuss UAV's and the AMA. You can bet your bootie the AMA and the FAA share many interests and are in fact intermingled plenty.

This is from AMA's website under services: Coordination with Federal Aviation Administration to promote safe regulations for flying. I mean my gosh the AMA could in fact screw it up for all of us or keep us flying forever as our voice to the FAA. Either way why can't we talk about the FAA, because it's a Federal org?

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

Phaedrus- Thanx for the FAA pub #, it's nice to actualy get a chance to read a fedlaw rather than rely on 3rd party info


I'm still waiting for anyone to point to an actual FAA law about 55lb/20kg, I've seen the Sport weight, & the Ultralight weight, but havent seen the Model weight fedlaws.

FAA spokesperson Laura Brown commented that although the agency wasn't "peeved," they were "definitely surprised" that authorization had not been requested for the trial. Commander Sid Heal, point man for this program tasked with spying on Angelinos locating criminal suspects, lost hikers, and missing children, countered by arguing that since private citizens can fly model planes without FAA clearance, it's puzzling that providers of a so-called public service would be required to do so.

I can see the Sherrif not thinking to get authorization, but just what was the violation?
Airspace? Remote Pilot? Certainly not weight or speed. What was the sherrif doing wrong that brought the FAA in?

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

I thought my post made it clear that there are NO FAA rules regarding the AMA imposed 55-pound limit that requires a waiver. FAA has NOTHING to do with it, so there will not be anything in the FARs.

The FAA IS very interested in any UAV that operates under autonomous control, which our models do not. In this case, the LACSO contacted the FAA and the FAA TOLD them they needed to get a permit, etc. from the FAA. The LACSO chose to ignore the FAA. That was the violation. Now what the penalty for that is, I do not know.

As far as the model fields go out here, the penalty is that the FAA holds sway over the lease holders for the three sites I mentioned (City of Costa Mesa, City of Long Beach, and the San Bernardino County Parks Department). All three fields are on notice that if the lease holder gets a complaint from the FAA that the lease is terminated. Pretty cut and dried.

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

Evidently, someone believed their "civil" rights were violated by this "privacy invasion device" and got it grounded. T
he 55 pound weight limit is not a law, it is what the AMA insurance will allow. I don't believe the FAA has stepped into that arena yet, but lets face it, they will sooner or later. We saw what they did to the jet fly-ins last year, and this year in some areas the fly-ins have been allowed to continue with success. There does not appear to be a consistent application of the rules from district to district, which is probably a good thing.
In any case, here was a very useful tool, relatively inexpensive and easy to operate, which could have saved lives and been a beneficial asset to law enforcement and rescue personel, that has essentially been "shot down".
Tommy

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

At this point in time RC models are not being subject to any restrictions other than those in AC 91-57 (Available on the AMA website). I do know from personal experience with the FAA and model related issues that as long as we operate in accordance with AC 91-57 and do not fly with autonomous control, they are not concerned about us. There was one fellow who was flying under autonomous control at VERY high altitudes. FAA got interested, shut him down, and this is where the AMA Safety Code item about autonomous control comes from.

We all have to remember that not every single little thing is spelled out in the FARs. FAA also relies on the AC and other internal documents for guidance. They are in the process of working out new rules specifically for UAVs and AMA is working to make sure that modeling is protected and not burdened.

Don't get all twisted up in what is and is not a UAV. The FAA knows what models are and what they consider a UAV. AC 91-57 applies specifically to model airplanes flown for recreational purposes under visual control (not out of sight or under computer control). The AMA Safety Code clearly spells out that the aircraft cannot be under autonomous control. It is not line of sight per se. It is within visual sight. You want to start flying out of sight and above 400 feet, then you need to be chatting with the FAA and that is what their new rules are going to be designed to address.

Go fly.

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

The only involvement of the insurance is if you try to make a claim and did not have a waiver for operating a 55 pound + plane. The insurance itself does not specify the 55 pound limit. AMA determined that and built it into the Safety Code.


As far as I know the AMA or the FAA has not directly influenced any jet events. The Best in the West was held out here in California, just not at the Prado field, where the lease holder has prohibited jets. FAA and/or AMA had nothing to do with that. It was the lease holder.

Not at all. The sheriff's office is moving forward with the testing program. All they have to do is obtain the proper permission from the FAA to do it. All that was done was to stop the testing until the permits were obtained. The program itself has not been cancelled.

BTW - one thing that got missed in many of the reports was that the UAV crashed while trying to land during one of the press events. So the thing may not get used if they can't be sure it works. But that is NOT the FAA shutting them down.

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

You have to admit that Sherrifs department plane is pretty cool if you clicked further on them links. Typically what spins off at federal level usually has a way of working itself into the private sector as well. Like when I was a kid I had a robot toy that you pre-programmed coordinates into and it would track around the house. What your saying is that we as modelers won't be able to take on autonomous flight at all? Because the plane that the sherriff department uses costs a pretty penny, but I bet I could get it flying for 1/10th that price. I just wonder if home modelers will ever to be able to create autonomous fliers on any level at all capable of flying within certain boxes. Beacause like we pointed out before, what looks cool to you guy on the remote, would be more interesting if it could be pre-programmed into a computer and have the routine flown autonomously.

It will be interesting to see what the FAA comes up with because AC9157 says nothing of line of sight nor autonomous. Autonomous sure looks like it could be a real fun hobby. :D

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

AC 91-57 specifies altitudes i general and procedures when operating within 3 miles of an airport. Internally (based on my discussions) they are working on UAV regulations. Autonomous control is one key factor. The AMA is aware of this and it is why they put it in the Safety Code:

9. The operator of a radio-controlled model aircraft shall control it during the entire flight, maintaining visual contact without enhancement other
than by corrective lenses that are prescribed for the pilot. No model aircraft shall be equipped with devices which allow it to be flown to a selected
location which is beyond the visual range of the pilot.

That makes it pretty clear, doesn't it?? Again, this is preemptive to the FAA finalizing their UAV rules. Currently the FAA does not spell it out about visual range.

Here is a good FAA reference for where they are and what they think:

http://www.uavforum.com/library/faa_uas_policy.pdf

It specifically references AC 91-57 and what is a model aircraft.



One other thing, there are very large number of folks working on UAVs out there. It is a developing field, but definitely not a new one.

Take a look at these pages:

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/uav.htm

http://www.aerovironment.com/

http://uav.wff.nasa.gov/

http://www.uavforum.com/

http://uav.navair.navy.mil/

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

Very clear if I'm a card carrying member of the AMA. This means that the AMA will pay for any damages if I destroy something within the safety code, that's where it ends. That certainly doesn't stop anyone i.e. a modeler, from taking it upon themselves to give it a try. Remember that big story about the plane that flew overseas, wasn't that flight sponsored by the AMA? Looks like the AMA wants to get a piece of the new tech action.

But like you said, we'll see what new rules the FAA will put in place in the future. Either way it looks like a pretty cool hobby. I don't think the FAA will fully restrict autonomous flight for the private sector in full, but certainly hand down a

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

Please read the link I attached to the FAA document. They already HAVE put down some rules. Someday they will formalize them into the FARs, but until then they will see this document as "The Law". It applies to private industry and it is why the Sheriff got spanked.

http://www.uavforum.com/library/faa_uas_policy.pdf

Of course none of the AMA rules or policies apply if you are not an AMA member or are doing something commercially. But the above FAA document DOES apply to anything that is not considered a model. And AC 91-57 applies to EVERYONE as well. AMA members, non-members, everyone all the time everywhere.

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

In reference to the model airplane that did the puddle jump: Sure, you can make an autonomous aircraft, but now you need a waiver. How do you get the waiver? Probably by making the aircraft go through the FAA certification. But now you'd be cleared with FAA while still having your AMA endorsement and coverage.

The point is that AMA is trying to keep things open and easy for 90% of the flyers out there. Once AMA and FAA agree on what a model is, it's really a simple deal. AMA will not need teeth on this one:
1. If you're within AMA regulations, then FAA is not concerned with you. AMA can can provide guidance for those aircraft.
2. If you exceed AMA regulations, then you'll be within the jurisdiction of the FAA. If you didn't follow the steps to apply for an AMA waiver, then you're on your own if you get caught and reported to FAA.

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

It isn't clear at all that it prohibits autonomous control, but only devices that allow to be flown to a point beyond the pilots vision, and presumeably his ability to override. It would not prohibit, for example, autonomous control that does just the opposite, i.e., keeps the model within a given radius of the pilot and/or causes it to return to base if the R/C link were lost.

That will change, however, due some subterfuge of the EC's intentions by DB and certain individuals he controls. Go look at the presentation to a congressional subcommittee by Mealy (if you can find it on the hodgepodge AMA site) and compare what he presented as rule 9. in the AMA Safety Code to what is actually in the current (2006) Safety Code. When it comes down to DB dealing with his paranoid delusions, the end justifies whatever means. Oh..... BTW the insurance company has been requested to modify the insurance policy to create yet another exclusion from coverage of the liability policy. Guess what that might be.

Abel

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

You should go back and do some research on this item. The FAA shut down a few jet events last year based upon the fact that the airpports were not to b used for this type of activity unless there was sufficient compensation for the airport and if it did not interfere with the regular use of that facility by full scale aircraft. I am sure you can find it in the histroical log. It started based upon incidents in Misourri and eventually caused the cancellation of Superman 2005, they do take an active interest in some elements of R/C activity whether we choose to believe it or not.
TOmmy

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

And of course that was NOT directed specifically at jets, or even models, but rather the general interpretation of the FAA regarding use of airports that receive public funding for private events. That in conjunction with limiting normal operations at the airport. Anything that effected this was banned, not just jets or models. So my point stands that the FAA has not specifically shut down a jet event due to some bias against jets, or models.

RE: FAA regulating model airplanes
 

Man, that's quite a job spin doctoring, and I am impressed. FAA and AMA had nothing to do with prohibiting jets? It was just a coincidence that both were all over Prado after the incident with a GA aircraft set up by the event director lying to participants about having altitude clearance for BITW. Yeah, right.

And what Tommy was replying to was your claim 'the FAA has not directly influenced any jet events.' There were sure as heck some jet guys that felt 'influence' of FAA action, whether they got hit by something aimed directly at them or got in the way of a scattergun.

Abel