RE: Competing with AMA
 

From the AMA website.


AMA is a self-supporting, non-profit organization whose purpose is to promote development of model aviation as a recognized sport and worthwhile recreation activity.



SSRCCPREZ. You are out on a limb. It hasbeen established that MA magazine is not a requirement to be a 501 C3 organization. They are only required to file a yearly report.

How does advertising in their own magazine increase revenue? You and I are paying for this "free advertising".

How does getting involved in a "for profit venture" fullfill the above mentioned mission statement?

RE: Competing with AMA
 

SSRCCPREZ, Well, as I said, it's tasteless. I'm sure more than just the one guy is affected. There are many cottage business that will be effected. Next thing you know, they'll be selling ARF's and you'll be ok with that? Same difference. I'm saying that if you run a NFP organization you don't mess with the guys that are in the business you are supposedly supporting. The trophy businesses don't sell to just model airplanes clubs. If they did, I'm sure they'd be broke the first week of business. I think the main problem here is that you don't see these guys as operating in the real world. I'm sure the investment in tools and material makes them think differently.

And, as Jugflier pointed out, it doesn't further the mission. It may even have the opposite effect by closing down small businesses that may have become larger in our hobby.

RE: Competing with AMA
 

They defintely have this one down then, cause they know how not to make a profit. You have to agree though that SSRCCPREZ makes a good argument. What about the others out there? I mean you see all the junk they put out in the Christmas special? The DVD debacle? Perhaps Spock was right, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", this may be the the thing that turns the AMA around and pulls them out of the red (firmly biting my cheek to keep from wetting myself)...but we can't have it both ways...we cannot keep complaining about the AMA losing money and going up on our dues, and not expect them to try every little thing that comes along to increase their bottom line. Even a non-profit organization has bills to pay. We do expect them however to be fiscally responsible.
Tommy

RE: Competing with AMA
 

Just be cause the AMA is a non profit group does not mean they are violating anything by cutting foam for profit. the profit goes to operating expenses, the museum, MA, and everything else they have. I the AMA started with ARF's I would have NO issue with this. The quality of the product and service firmly outweighs who is doing it. How is advertising in their own magazine increasing the revenue stream? Because they DONT HAVE TO PAY FOR IT!!!! You're right though, our dues do pay fo the mag and everyhting else the AMA does. A whopping .16 cents a DAY!! They are in business for their members and any revenue they receive or create is for the promogation of their mission statement. It what they do with the money that makes the mission not how they get the money.
LAstly, if we are all so opposed to these type sof ventures, than lets all send a letter on behalf of ferocious, jug and the rest tha we would rather pay more each year for dues. Is $10.00 more o.k., how about $20.00 where is the line? We all talk about the diminishing membership in the AMA how else do you think they could make up for the lost revenue? Hit us with higher dues or look into other ventures?
The last thought i have is what do you make of the nonprofit groups selling used cars? Arent they effecting the used car guys? How does selling cars have anything to do with lung cancer or heart disease or whatever......The point is nothing, except they need the money to pursue the mission statement, There is NO difference here.
By the way has anyone noticed tha ferociouse has not tried to plug his own business once yet....that is not smart business. Noone promotes you beter than you!!! He is soo concerned with losing business that he has forgotten to promote it............
Look, i have said this all along, I agree that the AMA probably shouldn't be doing this, but that does not mean they cant, and I am willing to allow the people who run the AMA a chance to pursue other revenue streams other than my pocket.

RE: Competing with AMA
 

I'd go with cutting costs. The number of members will always fluctuate, they should not depend on getting as much money next year as they did this year. For cryin' out loud, they should be a little more efficient than the federal government.:D
As far as pursuing revenue streams other than me, oh yeah, I'm with you there! The T-shirts, awards, and gifts are more than fine with me. You see the problem when they enter the "regular" hobby market, though. It makes people mad. Me included.

BTW, if the AMA wants to send me another free DVD, I say "go ahead". It'll have to be much better than the last one if they want me to buy it. The idea was a good one, but poorly implemented. It's easy enough to ask on the yearly signup form if people want to receive such items. Partnering with businesses in the hobby is a good idea. Especially when it's not "hard goods". But don't let them run a line of BS on people.

RE: Competing with AMA
 

NAY - Not so. The magazine as presented is NOT any where near for any such requirement under IRC 501 (c) (3). To say that it is, does not advertise any working knowledge of the stated IRC regulation.

While the subject article is advertising of a sort, it is really an AMA news-notice of a service to be provided by the plans department. That department also contains the historical collection of the late John Pond which is a life time work of one of aeromodeling's most dedicated model aviation experts, and historians.

I support AMA's endeavors to maintain and keep active the historical values of the evolution of model aviation, and that is why the majority of my annual contribution is marked for the museum function. I am sorry that this item may seem to conflict with commercial operators, however I have not yet seen AMA's price structure in that department.
If AMA's pricing in the plans department is like the pricing in their store, then they will definitely NOT be any competition for anyone. If only they could use that same pricing strategy in their MA advertising. :D

RE: Competing with AMA
 

PT, I have said a hundred times that increasing revenue streams is only half the battle and that decreasing costs and being more efficient is the other half. I also agree that membership wil fluctuate, but at what percentage? the AMA has to set up a budget each year, membership fluctaution is considered, but costs are fixed. So the easist source of income is the membership fees.
How is trophies, t-shirts and gifts different than foam core? These are hard goods also,a nd they effect (potentially) other members businesses also. Thsi makes no sense that the line is on foam core for RC AIRPLANES!!!! Wouldnt it make more sense to be doing ARF's,foam cores, and everything r/c rather than screen printing, which has nothing to do with model aviation? With this line of thinking the AA should bottle and sell Muncie Spring Water, but not Delta darts.........
Bottom line, they can do it, and they should pursue whatever additional revenue stream they can, just like any other entity trying to stay afloat!!
I am a retail shop and am constantly expanding what I sell to increase revenue. Do you know what I would say to someone if they told me that I had no business selling something?
Also, I directly showed you that non-profits are always selling things that have little to do with their mission statement for the revenue and when faced with a hard fact...it is just brushed aside.
Next time you go buy a used car, ask the used car salesman if the American Heart Association selling used cars effects him? This is NO DIFFERENT!!!!

RE: Competing with AMA
 

I'm going to try to convince my wife that my hobby costs are fixed. No matter how much income we have, she must provide me with a fixed budget that increases at the same rate as the federal deficit. Hopefully someone can post where to send flowers...:D

The awards, plaques, etc can be considered a service to the clubs, but competing against dealers in the hobby will end up giving them a bloody nose. Considering how so many people already view the AMA as a necessary evil, this just seems another step in the wrong direction PR-wise.

RE: Competing with AMA
 

Wait wait wait...Plaques are a service to clubs, and thats o.k., but when they offer a service to the members it's not o.k..? WHAT?!
Ther eis No difference between the plaques and the foam cores. They are both products that are done in the open market, that the AMA does. There is no difference.
As for your income, if you are on salary you know what you will make next year, you know what your fixed costs are and you budget the money left for other things, how is this different for the AMA? They have an assumed income from the membership dues, they have fixed costs, and then they need to budget the rest. If the assumed income is less than costs NEED to be cut and alternative revenue streams need to be considered. This is no different than getting a second job to supplement my income instead of asking for a raise!!!
Are you really serious with this? You've got to be pullijg my leg here!!!

p.s.

www.ftd.com for flowers

RE: Competing with AMA
 

"I have said a hundred times that increasing revenue streams is only half the battle and that decreasing costs and being more efficient is the other half"

Nice point. Based on The AMA's track record do you really feel they are capable of operating a side business in the black? They have made no effort whatsoever to cut costs or increase membership. Its time to deal with the facts.

RE: Competing with AMA
 

No I wasn't serious. My wife really would go nuts.[sm=lol.gif] Just injecting a little unexpected humor.

I don't know what else to say if you don't see the difference between providing non-hobby related items and competing in the hobby market. I can see neither of us will be swayed, though.

RE: Competing with AMA
 

Being non-profit organization does not mean they cannot sell an item. It simply means that when all of the + and - are summed up, the balance sheet indicates no profit. There are a lot of "non-profit" organizations with employees that make six or seven figure incomes. "Non-profit" doesn't mean poor.;)

RE: Competing with AMA
 

Hey PT,
Part of the fun of discussing with you is that neithe rof us are easily swayed, we both make great points, we are both able to discuss these points intelligently, and we NEVER resort to personal atacks or name calling. I have a great deal of respect for you regardless of where you and I fall on an issue. I believe I would include you in my idea of a perfect flying day with friends.

RE: Competing with AMA
 

AMA may look at this as helping preserve the building end of the hobby. The old days of one-man hobby manufacturers in a cottage industry are fading away - ask Adrian Paige. Look at the building supplies in your LHS - and the kits! It is increasingly difficult to sustain a cottage business, and demand for plans and supplies is falling. AMA may be trying to preserve and promote.....

RE: Competing with AMA
 

I did not know that the AMA made trophies and T-shirts. I thought they only marketed items bought from some supplier. You mean there is some builiding at Muncie with little third-world girls sweat-shopping away making AMA T-shirts? I hadn't seen anything about that. I don't see what this has to do with going into competition with cottage industry AMA members who market foam wings.

I might mention that I am a control line flier and find the cottage industries to be very important.

RE: Competing with AMA
 

Jim......I do not understand what point your trying to make with your post..... could you clarify?

RE: Competing with AMA
 

SSRCCPREZ, You might change your mind once you take in my castor-soaked, screaming 1/2a's.

Being such a 1/2a'er, the cottage industries are very important to me, too.

RE: Competing with AMA
 

Look, I am just saying they Can do it not Should do it!!!!
I am a cottage industry myself of sorts who is constantly under attack by large chains.....This is competiton, its business, if ther eis enough call for a product than other people will get into it. Cottage industry is important to business in general, however, my point has been that all the other things the AMA trys to sell us is no different than this, and at least this has somehting to do with model aero!!
I dont want to see anyone go out of business, but frankly, if all it takes is another person or entity entering the marketplace to put you out, well than you werent doing to well to begin with. The two largest retailers and my biggest competitors are within 1 mile of me in three directions.....I compete, I do well. I don't complain, I don't cry foul and I don't worry so much about other businesses, I owrry about my own, do what I do best and let the chips fall where they may.

RE: Competing with AMA
 

SSRCCPREZ, I can see you are a true free-market capitalist. A very admirable trait! Especially if you're in business for yourself. The AMA isn't quite as directly effected by it's consumers. People will stick around and get fed up until there's an alternative, then leave in droves. (literally, clubs at a time) I don't think that's in our best interest. The AMA can and does at times serve a very important purpose. We seem to be on the same page and I'll concede the point that they can. Most people will put up with far more from a NFP organization than they will a local business. Probably a large portion will see this as a good service and prove me wrong. It's happened before, just ask my wife.[&:]

RE: Competing with AMA
 

Cottage industries ARE near and dear to my heart, as well. Unfortunately and fortunately, the model aviation industry has moved away from traditional cottage-industry-friendly practices in recent years. It's gotten very hard to make a go of a small business manufacturing kits or hardware for model airplanes and make enough money to show a reasonable profit. Even big companies have a tough time competing - sometimes against themselves!. Look at the street prices of a LT-40 kit and ARF. For ~$40, you get the plane built and covered.
A small manufacturer has a tough time selling enough product to survive. If they concentrate on one or two products, volume is low. If they branch out, costs go up. Many discover that when their hobby becomes a business, it's not fun anymore. Most discover that they are eating beans and weenies, living on a lot less than they could make working for someone else.

RE: Competing with AMA
 

My post is in opposition to the idea that the AMA selling T-shirts and foam wings are one and the same thing. The AMA is not producing the T-shirts they are selling, so far as I know. I presume they are buying them from a supplier and making them available to the membership. They are not competing with the T-shirt maker, but supporting the T-shirt maker while doing a service for the membership. A comparable situation would be the AMA buying foam wings from Ferocious and reselling them to the AMA membership. (For illustration purposes only.)

RE: Competing with AMA
 

Is this foam core supplier an advertiser in the MA, if so perhaps he could use that as leverage. My guess is that if you call the AMA and get a price on their setup fee and wings, you could probably buy two sets for the same money from the OP, I could be wrong but if history is any example I am not.
They probably think they are bringing a "service" to the membership, using equipment that was purchased for the reasons we talked about earlier, providing cores for plans which they sell, in an effort to justify its existence. I mean you can buy a CNC foam cutter off of the internet for less than $1500, I can't see where they thought they were going to generate a huge amount of business. Do a search and you can finds lots of foam cutters out there. It is the setup fee and the conversion of most of the files that folks send in that really cuts into the business aspect of the whole thing. I have a respect for someone talented enough to set up the CNC machine and program it, I know cause I have looked into buying my own and it looks like too dang much work.
Perhaps this is a brain child of one the AMA employees who tinkers with this sort of thing.

RE: Competing with AMA
 

Maybe they could get into the oil business next. Maybe sell snow cones on the local street corners. I don't trust them with my 58 bucks a year no less a business.

RE: Competing with AMA
 

rcmiket,than why send it to them?..
As for the t-shirts I am not sdure if they outsource it or not, however I do know that the plaques and printing of certificates and the like are done in house. I have used the service several times in an effort to support an organization I belong to instead of using my local engraver. Now, I know that this is the very point ferocious was making, but it is a free market and that was my choice. If the AMA did not offer this service I owuld not have absolutley used the local guy. I would have gotten quotes from several vendors and made a decision based on value and customer service. I would first support my organization before I would just hand off my money to some guy. This holds true when the LIONS club sells plants. I buy them from the LIONS instead of the local greenhouse. I try to buy a used car from the American Heart Association instead of jimmy usedcar down the street.
I also try to do as much businerss with those who do business with me. It seems ferocious leaped without looking. It seems he never called the AMA and said hey I can do these for you,or I do this too, if you need a back up guy Im it.
Part of being in business is going out and getting the business. Ferocious never called the AMA with this idea and made it a partnership, he is only complaining because the AMA went and did what they felt was a servicx e to the members beczause noone else was upfront about doing it. Look in the MA how many foam core ads do you see? They saw a perceived need and filled it.

RE: Competing with AMA
 

Good point I may not. They could care less.