RE: GETTING PAID
 

The ins co's are just like the mafia, they see that you are making a buck an they want their cut from it. The irs an the ins co's both work on the same principle. The more you end up making, the more blood money they will want.


Ronnie

RE: GETTING PAID
 

If you fly at an airshow for pay, I would think the airshow whould have insurance which would cover you. I've done paid consulting, which involved model flying, and was covered by the company's insurance while doing so.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

STL

I have paid people and people have paid me for a ride and yes sometime it involves
freinds and never a problem. Common sense tells me its my right to accept money
for takeing someone somewhere in my car if I want to and no its not against the
law and if it was I dont see how it could be enforced.

You see I would never be stuipd enough to have somthing in writing saying im takeing
person X to place X for X amount of money in fact I dont like to ride anybody in my
car I feel I cant trust and i dont see the relationship at all to drunk driving.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

Ira I still think that you are missing the point of the thread and discussion. Sure anyone can cheat the system, it's not that hard to do. Most of us do it a few times a day unknowingly and knowingly. But the OP is looking for a suggestion that won't cheat the system in case SOMETHING GOES WRONG. Most likely something won't go wrong, but if he's flying at an airshow and his 40% flies into a crowd, then what? I think that's the answer he was just looking for.

I'm pretty sure he's well aware that he can do anything he wants in life. When you have a crowd of 10,000 and payment received from say, The Air Force or some other large organization. It's pretty hard to tell a judge that you weren't the one that did "it" and that you didn't accept money for doing "it". Let alone the fact someone referred the FAA's own regulation on flying radio control for compensation falls into a whole new category, whether you do it 1 time or 100 times makes NO difference.

There are ways around the OP's situation. First and foremost is to have them sign a hold harmless. But even that only carries so much weight. Some states don't even recognize them. But I suggest the OP looks up the definition "soft money" transaction. It's a term that's used on the street where I work quite often.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

Unfortunately, the FAA regulations don't set a limit on the number of times you perform commercial activities while flying. It has nothing to do with insurance. It has everything to do with the FAA which is the regulatory authority for airspace in the U.S. If someone pays you for a service, its a commercial venture.

If you're worried about fuel costs, and they're willing to provide fuel, have them purchase the fuel. But if you want them to compensate you for your skill, prowess, and ability to entertain, now you're commercial.

And no matter what insurance you have, you can be pretty sure that activities conducted that are not in compliance with Federal or State regulations will nullify what ever insurance you're using, AMA, private, etc. If someone gets hurt, you lose the farm.

It may not seem fair, and its probably not. The Government has determined that public safety is more important that personal freedom in the arena of air safety. And standby. In the next couple years, the FAA will be publishing new regulation for UAVs that will even further restrict our hobby activities.

Better hope the AMA can get in front of this one and help us out.

Brad

RE: GETTING PAID
 

Im not missing the point at all im saying that there are ways to do things without
creating unnecessary problems for yourself as I said if he was to be paid after
the event especaily if it was in cash there would be no risk that I can see.

When I give someone a ride and they pay me for my gas and time its always in cash
and after the fact although doing it that way was just a matter of pacticallity because
I was not running a commercial operation but also it helps to keep anyone from
thinking I was.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

Getting the cash isn't the risk, the risk is the plane flying into a crowd. More then likely he's not flying at a facility which is designed and laid out for RC operations. RC fields have specific layouts and warnings. If you can think of a way for the OP to protect his livelihood from legitimate consequences, feel free to share those ideas. I don't know if you've ever been sued, but your friends can forget about you real quick when someone gets hurt. Do an RCU search for Casey Rowe, I just suggest you just read instead of bringing up the discussion in this forum.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

I know that there will always be a gray area between what is commerical and private
and insurance companys will sometime look for excuses not to pay but in general
if you dont solicit for business and you dont do somthing on a regular basics or have
somthing in writing or have a busness license it would hard to make a case that you
are a commerical operation. No im not a attorney and I know there can be exceptions
in every case.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

Everyone has a different oppinion. I thought this was the "AMA Discussion" meaning an AMA employee/board member would chime in and add "The Rule" on this subject in this forum. It seems everyone is spouting off what THEY think is right or wrong. Guess I'll call up the AMA myself cause it isnt going anywhere in this thread.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

Carden'
You were given the correct info, it just may not be what you wanted. If you take money for doing airshows AMA insurance ( which is secondary) does not cover you. You need to get some primary coverage for your airplane if you are going to be monetarily compensated for flying. The Hartford can help you out.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

Yup, back in the begining we made that clear,
and then everyone & their brother decided to help you find ways to cheat, lie, hide the income, & just plain igore any laws because you wont get caught.

AMA wont cover you for comercial (not just profitable) flying.

Does it really mater if I try to redefine that all day long I do 'favors' for managers of a business, and they simply reimburse me for my Rent, Food, Gas, Electricbill, Movies, Fuel & Planes, Xbox, beer, going on dates, pizza, and any monies I put into IRA...... Why not just call that reimbursement instead of Paycheck, and I wont have to pay any taxes. For every hour of doing stuff for them, I can hand in $XX worth of reimbursement reciepts? Or is the plan to have the managers just pay cash when nobody else is around... or leave the cash in the restroom & I pick it up later like a drug deal.
Brilliant!
I really love the part how it isnt illegal solely because it is hard to get caught.... no other justification. Yes, working under the table is easy, ask the illegal aliens that illegal work.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

In the original post, you asked why the AMA won't permit you to recieve pay to fly in a demonstration. The answer is the AMA does not have anything to do with commercial operation of model aircraft. The FAA specifically exempted Hobby use only.

From the Federal Aviation Administration Federal Aviation Regulation, 14 CFR 1, Definitions:

The AMA is not going to jump in and tell you its OK to violate Federal Regulations.

You have the facts. Use them as you choose, but don't get angry at the people providing them.

Sorry.
Brad

RE: GETTING PAID
 

I dont see what the FAA rule has to do with model planes as I read it appears to be
talking about using a full scall airplane.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

I fail to see where they mention Full Scale anywhere in that definition.
Without them mentioning a scale, why assume scale had anything to do with it?

Does the DEA have to specificly say that Small Scale Model drugs are illegal too?
What about tiny shooting model machineguns? BATF&E didnt mention scale either.

heck, they have laws for kites & balloons

RE: GETTING PAID
 

I dont know anyone that carries people or transports packages for people in their
models but maybe you do.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

Cardencap,

The bottom line is your hearing the correct story, you just don't want to listen to it and accept it as reality.
Sorry for the reality check, but it is what it is.

Saying that it is only a couple of times and only for a small amount of money is like getting "a little bit pregnant."

The rule cuts a clear and defined line between what they cover and why. The best thing you can do is find out how much it will cost for a year of insurance for this activity, divide that by the number of demos you do and pass the cost along. It's an expense just like any job you bid. You are required to figure out your materials, your expenses (read insurance) and your time, slide in a comfortable profit and bid the job.

Good luck

RE: GETTING PAID
 

The aerobatic pilots arent carrying passengers in there airplanes around the aerobatc box at an airshow. They have a fee they charge for flying. Hence my question about getting paid to fly in an airshow. At an airshow a few of the FAA rules are conducted by the Airboss during the Airshow. He obviously is probably FAA certified but he pretty much calls the shots. Now when it comes all down to it and an accident happens the Airboss is out of the question and the airspace is given back to the tower! The Airboss of an airshow handles ALL of the airspace in the Aerobatic box!

BKDAVY,
Howcome I have been able to fly in these airshows if it clearly states the FAA doesnt allow the use of models??

RE: GETTING PAID
 

again, I dont see Carries People or Transports Packages in that definition.
Could please point out the language that limits the cfr definition of aircraft to carrying or transporting... or scale?

RE: GETTING PAID
 

Carden Cap,

If you don't want the fuss, don't get paid for the flying. Do the flights for free and charge for a autograph signing, Q & A time, etc. I for one wouldn't ever charge for flying at an air show, etc, nor would I ask for expenses to be covered. Then again I don't have the expertise, or equipment that you do, so my input isn't worth much here I guess that if I did enough of these types of events that I would eventually look to cover my costs at a maximum. Another off topic thought would be have you ever thought of getitng sponsorship from some of the RC companies. That way you get to do what you love (just guessing you're like me and love to fly) while not having to spend your money on the equipment. I'm sure that you could contact any one of many manufactuers and give them the details of what events you fly at and offer your services in exchange for a price break or product.

Well that's more than my 2 cents on the subject.

Skids

RE: GETTING PAID
 

Good idea Jimmy, that's called a "soft money" payment. I told him to Google it for himself, but I guess he doesn't even have to make the effort anymore. Plus I think he left the building, didn't like the answers he wanted to hear.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

I have yet to hear of the FAA involved in the regulation of model planes unless there
is some conflict with full scale planes. The FAA does not have the resources to keep
track of all the models out there let alone the disire to.

As I read the definition as posted it says the commerce of carriage in the air pearsons
or property to me that does not sound like a model to me if you think it does then fine
you are entitled to your opinion.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

Ira sounds like you and Carden should go into business together, I just hope neither of you own a home or have children.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

STL that might be good business for you and you could be his promoter and make
sure he has plenty of shows to attend.

OTOH why is i made some suggestions of how he could be paid you compared it to
drunk driving and ran me down for it and yet you endorse him going the so called
soft money route. When you get down to the bottom line it all the same thing a way
to get what you are entitled to without making unnessary problems for yourself.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

Ira-
oh, in the Commercial Operator definition,
I thought we were talking about the Aircraft def. In the definition of aicraft, it makes no qualifiers as to scale, or use. A while back this was argued bigtime about the FAA was suposedly powerless to do anything about folks flying RC because they were not aircraft.

Can a General Aviation Pilot accept $500 for flying at an airshow, without a Comercial Pilots Licence?


But this is academic. Just get the Hartford insurance & claim it is income... and claim a bunch more as expense to really help in the big picture.

RE: GETTING PAID
 

I fly uav's for a living along with some other duties. So I suppose I fly for hire. I'm also a commercial rated full scale pilot but most of my flying is done in places a pilot's license doesn't matter. I know that the FAA is establishing rules that require those that fly uav's in U.S. airspace be commercial rated full scale pilots in order to avoid conflict with Federal Aviation Regulations, 14 CFR 1. I don't believe models are exempted when it comes to flying for hire.

Flying model airplanes and getting paid for it is a commercial venture, period. If one of those planes was to cause damage or injury at an event where the operator was getting paid to fly, look out big time! If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and flies like a duck it will be ruled a duck in a court of law. I guarantee that the FAA and the NTSB will provide a ruling to that effect at the time and stick it to the operators the same time the cival courts do. Likely the municipal authorities would file a "friend of the court" brief with the trial judge that supports the federal authorities, limiting their liability, and stacking the deck even more against the operator. There is no way the operator will be held harmless due to any disclaimers or contracts with an event organizer because they will be found to have been breaking the law, which voids everything that would have protected them.

If you're the guy flying the plane and getting paid when it happens, and it will eventually happen, move to Africa or something the next day and liquidate all your net worth. You'll be broke for the rest of your life if you can't bankrupt of the the punitave awards. In the meantime, even if nothing was to happen and the FAA got wind of it they could both fine the daylights out of you and impose jail time should they decide it was in their best interest to do so. Few win against the FAA and NTSB when they combinitively go after someone.

I find it hard to understand why people believe the FAA has no interest or authority when it comes to flying models and airspace. The fact that the FAA has issued any laws or regulations at all regarding the flying of models or flying models in regulated airspace tells you that they do indeed have that authority and interest. Sometimes you have to look farther than the one tree to see you're standing in a forest. If you were to walk head first into that one tree there's no way anyone would believe that you didn't know there were trees around.