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RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
What IS so bad about this is that the AMA is enabling some individuals to think that they have a legitimate right to fly their 2 pound, 60 mph misslies in public parks where there is no pedestrian control. Outside of that, everything is hunky-dory.
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RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
ORIGINAL: combatpigg What IS so bad about this is that the AMA is enabling some individuals to think that they have a legitimate right to fly their 2 pound, 60 mph misslies in public parks where there is no pedestrian control. Outside of that, everything is hunky-dory. When I lived in STL there was a well known park with an archery range, right next to the Science Center parking lot. About 50' downrange from the non-birmed targets there was a jogging and walking path. On the path it said "beware of arrows". But hey, it's their park, their decision. But wouldn't it be better that a potential park flyer has a safety code and basic flying guidelines, then none at all. There are still safety code guidelines for PPP's in addition to the weight and speed restrictions. Don't worry Combat, the PPP is not going to shut down RC flying as you know it. Afterall 2 weeks after 9/11 a GA aircraft could go back again to fly only hundreds of feet from any NYC building. This country is a rather resilient place, so enjoy it and don't lose any sleep over it. |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
Stl, since both you and aeajr have a personal vested interest in the success in this program, I might as well be consulting with the local coyotes about how to build a chicken coop. ;)
Because of the program, there will be a certain type of individual who thinks that he now has "license" and cheap insurance coverage to fly in areas where he might not have before. There is no argument here, this is just a basic fact about human nature. |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
Because of the program, there will be a certain type of individual who thinks that he now has "license" and cheap insurance coverage to fly in areas where he might not have before. There is no argument here, this is just a basic fact about human nature. Personal and vested interests? Yeah, I wouldn't belong to an organization if I didn't believe in what they were trying to achieve. I have my own insurance and I can walk to Barnes and Noble and read RC rags for free, with a coffee shop on the premesis. Unlike many, I don't need the AMA, I believe in them instead. |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
ORIGINAL: STLPilot The problem with the PPP is that the AMA put the program together against the wishes of the majority of those whom they polled in regard to the e-ticket program last year. personally am against programs that make a difference in the classification of members. It is not an RCU poll that I am talking about, but rather the e-mail that Joyce asked those of us who received one to respond to. It is my understanding that the response was overwhelmingly in opposition to any form of tiered membership. Again, do you ever read what you have written, or do you suffer from memory loss? Bill, AMA 4720 |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
Ok guys, let's keep from name calling in the forum. It's possible to discuss this issue without resorting to personal attacks.
Ken |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
ORIGINAL: combatpigg Stl, since both you and aeajr have a personal vested interest in the success in this program, I might as well be consulting with the local coyotes about how to build a chicken coop. ;) Because of the program, there will be a certain type of individual who thinks that he now has "license" and cheap insurance coverage to fly in areas where he might not have before. There is no argument here, this is just a basic fact about human nature. That certain type of individual has always thought they had the right to fly anywhere they like. What changed, in that respect? Nothing. The goal of the program is to get those folks out of the parks and onto an AMA field. If I read the tone of your posts correctly, this is something you would like to see too. Right? Sounds like we have a common goal. |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
ORIGINAL: aeajr Just found this discussion. Pretty interesting. However I think a number of people have missed the point of the program: THE AMA PARK PILOT PROGRAM - Just in case you have not actually read the details of the program http://www.modelaircraft.org/parkflyer.aspx At half the price of regular AMA membership, it seems to offer a nice package for pilots who are not interested in larger planes, glow planes, gas planes or jets. If you are primarily focused on small electrics, electric helies or small gliders, this is something you should consider. In addition, the AMA is looking to help form Park Pilot clubs and help those clubs establish Park Pilot fields. These clubs would be focused on flying park flyers and would not be open to gas, glow, jets or large planes. As a result they can be located in smaller fields and potentially in places where regular AMA fields have been rejected or cast out. Certianly sounds interesting. Park Flyer Definition: Key points: Small - up to 2 pounds Quiet - electric, glider or other quiet forms Not too fast - to give potential landlords the confidence of what the upper limit is of the planes that would be flown on the site. So an F27 Stryker B would qualify. A C would not. this speed limit is based on top speed on a level run, not measured in a dive. Flying Site Development: http://www.modelaircraft.org/UserFil...iteBooklet.pdf The AMA is encouraging the development of new, officially recognized AMA Park Pilot sites in metro areas throughout the US. As an aid in reaching this goal, AMA developed a special “How to Start a Park Flying Site” turnkey package so members who are trying to secure a field won’t have to start from scratch when they approach landowners or officials responsible for regulation of public facilities. The package includes a DVD to show landowners and park officials what park flying is all about––and how different it is from the engine-powered, radio-control flying with which they may already be familiar. There are tips on how to approach officials and landowners, plus instructions on how to set up a field. It even includes a guide for how to quickly and efficiently organize a club, its bylaws, and field rules. And best of all, members will be able to inform landowners and officials that they’d be covered by AMA site liability coverage in the amount of $2.5 million, which should serve as a great incentive. The goal is to make it easier for official AMA recognized flying sites to be developed quickly and in great numbers. So the goal is NOT for people to be flying in parks, although those folks could join and be covered. The goal is create a new kind of club and a new kind of flying field so that park flyer pilots can have a safe secure place to fly their planes. A place that might be acceptible where the traditional AMA field might be rejected. Clearly the plane manufacturers think this is a good idea. They are offering rebates to help cover the cost of membership. http://www.modelaircraft.org/parkflyer/shops.aspx When you join you will receive rebate coupons in your membership package worth upto $50.00 Partners include: Hobbico, Ready to Fly Fun, Hobby-Lobby, RC Micro World, and Rotory Modeler. Check out their web sites to see all the products they offer. Finally, the program is intented to reach out to the pilots who have been turned away by AMA clubs or who have been turned off by traditional AMA clubs. Now the AMA can help you form your own clubs around the kind of flying that interests you, parkflyers. So, what's so bad about that? Once these so-called PPP clubs are established, other non-AMA park flyers will be as well received as non-AMA flyers at any other current AMA club field. There are many examples of current clubs on public land that utilize the AMA as a means to keep people out. The bottom line...AMA is promoting itself not Park flying. Park flyers are already flying! Now if the AMA’s focus was to open or reopen otherwise closed venues I would agree to your rationalization. |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf ORIGINAL: aeajr Just found this discussion. Pretty interesting. However I think a number of people have missed the point of the program: THE AMA PARK PILOT PROGRAM - Just in case you have not actually read the details of the program http://www.modelaircraft.org/parkflyer.aspx At half the price of regular AMA membership, it seems to offer a nice package for pilots who are not interested in larger planes, glow planes, gas planes or jets. If you are primarily focused on small electrics, electric helies or small gliders, this is something you should consider. In addition, the AMA is looking to help form Park Pilot clubs and help those clubs establish Park Pilot fields. These clubs would be focused on flying park flyers and would not be open to gas, glow, jets or large planes. As a result they can be located in smaller fields and potentially in places where regular AMA fields have been rejected or cast out. Certianly sounds interesting. Park Flyer Definition: Key points: Small - up to 2 pounds Quiet - electric, glider or other quiet forms Not too fast - to give potential landlords the confidence of what the upper limit is of the planes that would be flown on the site. So an F27 Stryker B would qualify. A C would not. this speed limit is based on top speed on a level run, not measured in a dive. Flying Site Development: http://www.modelaircraft.org/UserFil...iteBooklet.pdf The AMA is encouraging the development of new, officially recognized AMA Park Pilot sites in metro areas throughout the US. As an aid in reaching this goal, AMA developed a special “How to Start a Park Flying Site” turnkey package so members who are trying to secure a field won’t have to start from scratch when they approach landowners or officials responsible for regulation of public facilities. The package includes a DVD to show landowners and park officials what park flying is all about––and how different it is from the engine-powered, radio-control flying with which they may already be familiar. There are tips on how to approach officials and landowners, plus instructions on how to set up a field. It even includes a guide for how to quickly and efficiently organize a club, its bylaws, and field rules. And best of all, members will be able to inform landowners and officials that they’d be covered by AMA site liability coverage in the amount of $2.5 million, which should serve as a great incentive. The goal is to make it easier for official AMA recognized flying sites to be developed quickly and in great numbers. So the goal is NOT for people to be flying in parks, although those folks could join and be covered. The goal is create a new kind of club and a new kind of flying field so that park flyer pilots can have a safe secure place to fly their planes. A place that might be acceptible where the traditional AMA field might be rejected. Clearly the plane manufacturers think this is a good idea. They are offering rebates to help cover the cost of membership. http://www.modelaircraft.org/parkflyer/shops.aspx When you join you will receive rebate coupons in your membership package worth upto $50.00 Partners include: Hobbico, Ready to Fly Fun, Hobby-Lobby, RC Micro World, and Rotory Modeler. Check out their web sites to see all the products they offer. Finally, the program is intented to reach out to the pilots who have been turned away by AMA clubs or who have been turned off by traditional AMA clubs. Now the AMA can help you form your own clubs around the kind of flying that interests you, parkflyers. So, what's so bad about that? Once these so-called PPP clubs are established, other non-AMA park flyers will be as well received as non-AMA flyers at any other current AMA club field. There are many examples of current clubs on public land that utilize the AMA as a means to keep people out. The bottom line...AMA is promoting itself not Park flying. Park flyers are already flying! Now if the AMA’s focus was to open or reopen otherwise closed venues I would agree to your rationalization. I see the AMA as a service organization, focused on the needs and interests of its member model airplane hobbiests. They have no product, per se, they offer services. The AMA has always promoted a program to enable the easy formation of clubs. They have packaged how-to kits, provided insurance, and helpd negotiate with land owners to help make it easier for local clubs to arrange flying fields. For example, the AMA worked out an arrangement with the EPA to get their endorsement to use closed land fills as flying fields. That would have been almost impossible for any individual or lone club to do. That is a great program. Of course you still have to convince the local government folks, but having EPA backing is a powerful tool. I think the PPP might fit well with some of those land fill sitesf or the creation of PP clubs. We have one near us that would be too small for a regular AMA field but might work for a PP club field. The entier structure of the AMA is built around the club system. The AMA serves the clubs and the clubs serve the members. If the current club system does not meet the need of these new flyers, such that they see no value in joining, then I think it is smart of the AMA to offer a new kind of club system that doesn't replace the current system, but expands the service offering. If the current clubs are being pushed out of the urban and suburban areas due to nosie, polution, safety concerns, whatever, then form a new club system that is more acceptible to the urban and suburban communities. I think it is a great plan. I am sorry, but I don't understand your comment about closed venues. Can you explain? |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
I have what I feel is a reasonable question. Since some such as yourself and obviously Dion are very much pro, light weight electric park model airplanes, why not petition the Administrators here on RCU and ask for your own forum. That way, you won't be fomenting nearly as much hate and discontent as is being promoted by your posting here in the AMA forum. While I understand that you consider yourselfes to be members of the AMA, the fact remains that if you only have the PPP membership, you won't have any say in the workings of the Academy. Not trying to get rid of you by any stretch of the imagination, but you might find friendlier waters in your own forum.
Bill, AMA 4720 |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
I notice that both Aeajr and Stl are from NY city. I'll bet there are many reasons why the program has a good chance of working there. The program only needs to work in areas where it is needed. If you live in an area where it is not needed, count yourself fortunate. Once the program has been in place for a few years, one "side" will be able to say to the other, "See, I told you so".
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RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
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ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder I have what I feel is a reasonable question. Since some such as yourself and obviously Dion are very much pro, light weight electric park model airplanes, why not petition the Administrators here on RCU and ask for your own forum. That way, you won't be fomenting nearly as much hate and discontent as is being promoted by your posting here in the AMA forum. While I understand that you consider yourselfes to be members of the AMA, the fact remains that if you only have the PPP membership, you won't have any say in the workings of the Academy. Not trying to get rid of you by any stretch of the imagination, but you might find friendlier waters in your own forum. Bill, AMA 4720 Since your post follows mine, I presume your comments are directed to me. There is a forum for electric aircraft on RCU, RCG, Wattflyer and a bunch of others. Already there. Now, as to hate and discontent? Man you have me baffeled there. I went back and reread my posts and can't see where you would see any indication of hate or discontent on my part. I am a happy AMA member with no gripes at all. Aside from being an officer of an AMA club, my sailplanes are much too large for a Park Pilot field. I fly thermal duration competition unlimited sailplanes in AMA sanctioned events. I would not qualify for the PPP program for a lot of reasons. And I find the water here to be just fine. :) |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder I have what I feel is a reasonable question. Since some such as yourself and obviously Dion are very much pro, light weight electric park model airplanes, why not petition the Administrators here on RCU and ask for your own forum. That way, you won't be fomenting nearly as much hate and discontent as is being promoted by your posting here in the AMA forum. While I understand that you consider yourselfes to be members of the AMA, the fact remains that if you only have the PPP membership, you won't have any say in the workings of the Academy. Not trying to get rid of you by any stretch of the imagination, but you might find friendlier waters in your own forum. Bill, AMA 4720 I'm going to answer this one on behalf of RCU. Everybody is welcome here in the RCU AMA forum, this includes full members, PPP members, and even non-AMA members. This forum is not here as some dark secret back room where "full" AMA member get to discuss in secret the inner workings for the AMA. While it is true that the operations of the AMA can, and is, discussed here, it is more important to note that this forum is also a source of information for people with questions concerning the AMA. I have discussed this issue many times with Marc and Nathan and they both agree, that this forum is open to everybody and all opinions are welcomed and can be discussed. Ken |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
This is the kind of thing that produced the V8 Vega back in the day. |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
ORIGINAL: STLPilot Because of the program, there will be a certain type of individual who thinks that he now has "license" and cheap insurance coverage to fly in areas where he might not have before. There is no argument here, this is just a basic fact about human nature. Personal and vested interests? Yeah, I wouldn't belong to an organization if I didn't believe in what they were trying to achieve. I have my own insurance and I can walk to Barnes and Noble and read RC rags for free, with a coffee shop on the premesis. Unlike many, I don't need the AMA, I believe in them instead. |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
?? sure haven't seen any evil "fomentation" here yet !!. Differences of opinion, yes. That is what this forum lives on. I hope the program works, and I hope that I am wrong.
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RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
ORIGINAL: aeajr I am sorry, but I don't understand your comment about closed venues. Can you explain? There are many city properties/parks or other places that could accommodate park flying here but due to city ordinance that was prompted by some previous negotiations of an old AMA club there is now a city wide ban of RC at parks. If it weren’t for new TUFF club that petitioned the city for a useable site for park flyers there would be none at all for the park flyers. Our club has went the extra mile to promote park flying…for real. Now the public park flyers have a place to fly at zero cost to them. BTW it was the TUFF club that coined the two pound park flyer criteria long before AMA conceived this program. Although we did not take action to promote the club it has been a very real side benefit. WE have successfully grown the hobby here as well as the AMA. We routinely transform park flyers into ever greater engaged enthusiasts. It is not an uncommon reality to meet a fellow flyer here that started with an under 2# electric, made possible by TUFF’s actions, flying a large scale gasser now. Just a few years ago that would have been very uncommon to say the least. Our club truly understands what it takes to grow the hobby as well as the AMA. I truly believe that is the real answer… promote the hobby first and foremost and the AMA will be just fine. BY promoting the AMA first and foremost a prolonged inevitable agonizing demise will be the ultimate result for the AMA as well as our hobby. |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
LCS, hard to argue with your results. I think your avenue of approach was made necessary from extremely dire circumstances, [nothing ventured, nothing gained]. I don't remember the details, but the TUFF club has set an example about how to revive the acceptance of RC in a community that had already made model aviation "illegal".
I still think that the PPP program can serve its' purpose in the right environment. BTW, Anyone who doesn't think that 1 pound planes can get the job done in half way decent weather conditions needs to take a side trip up here. I still wouldn't want to get hit by one of my 12 ouncers, though. |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf ORIGINAL: aeajr I am sorry, but I don't understand your comment about closed venues. Can you explain? There are many city properties/parks or other places that could accommodate park flying here but due to city ordinance that was prompted by some previous negotiations of an old AMA club there is now a city wide ban of RC at parks. If it weren’t for new TUFF club that petitioned the city for a useable site for park flyers there would be none at all for the park flyers. Our club has went the extra mile to promote park flying…for real. Now the public park flyers have a place to fly at zero cost to them. BTW it was the TUFF club that coined the two pound park flyer criteria long before AMA conceived this program. Although we did not take action to promote the club it has been a very real side benefit. WE have successfully grown the hobby here as well as the AMA. We routinely transform park flyers into ever greater engaged enthusiasts. It is not an uncommon reality to meet a fellow flyer here that started with an under 2# electric, made possible by TUFF’s actions, flying a large scale gasser now. Just a few years ago that would have been very uncommon to say the least. Our club truly understands what it takes to grow the hobby as well as the AMA. I truly believe that is the real answer… promote the hobby first and foremost and the AMA will be just fine. BY promoting the AMA first and foremost a prolonged inevitable agonizing demise will be the ultimate result for the AMA as well as our hobby. What was the key thing that helped you change the mind of the community? Clearly if you have a community wide ban on RC flying it can be tough to promote the hobby. Did someone setp forward wtih the space? Was this an unused piece of land? Please, tell us more. |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
I truly believe that is the real answer… promote the hobby first and foremost and the AMA will be just fine. BY promoting the AMA first and foremost a prolonged inevitable agonizing demise will be the ultimate result for the AMA as well as our hobby. |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
STL-
he kinda did explain it. He said all the self promoting prior to TUFF had resulted in the local govenmnet banning RC flying. All the self promoting was in place when TUFF had to start promoting the hobby to get the hobby/public a plce to fly. The AMA already had a place to fly, so all the self promoting had worked as planned: Join AMA or dont fly under the city ban. TUFF wasnt trying to get AMA anything, they were trying to get the HOBBY a place to fly. The TUFF 2lb Standard promotion promoted the hobby, while the AMA Insurance Standard promotion was trying to nail the coffin. Maybe the AMA clubs in OC, CA & SanJose just dont know about their local parkflying bans... or maybe they do and are promoting the AMA rather than the hobby. They have a place, no more promoting needed, so what if the public is verbotten to fly in theit town. How much effort is the AMA putting into getting the government (locals) to stop making flying illegal. We can say 2lb, 1lb, 55lb... dont matter how much a ParkFlier weighs if all RC is illegal in parks. |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy STL- he kinda did explain it. |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
Good summary there, KE. I joined TUFF because I share the goals and direction, though I came too late to share in the accomplishment. I have maintained my membership in another club only because it is required for use of an excellent site. I prefer to make my own choices as to what orgs I will belong to, and with TUFF the attraction is 'welcome' vs. a gamut of 'all prospective members are required to....., yada, yada,...'
Abel |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
once again,
Telling cities how important insurance is, and that they need to make sure all fliers have one named brand of insurance (that we happen to sell excusively) , to use public spaces is self promoting. We now have clubs waiting to see if PPP insurance is ok with the public entity that they made sure would only accept "AMA" insurance: Foot... gun... bang goes the self promote! Budwiser promotes building & racing powerboats. Budwiser promotes Boxing. Budwizer promotes blues musicians. Budwiser gives money to those guys so they can better afford to do what they do. It is hard to get LongBeach to shut down a few streets for some guys to play blues/bluegrass... unless of course someone like Bud steps in & says to do it. What Bud does not do is require guys at home drinking SierraNevada or PetesWicked switch to Bud. |
RE: Definition of Park Flyer?
Budwiser promotes building & racing powerboats. Budwiser promotes Boxing. Budwizer promotes blues musicians. Boxing promoters promote boxing, Labels and agents musicians, And I don't know does powerboats. But the advertisers are not promoting ... otherwise the boxers, musicians and powerboat drivers would be paying them. It's all cash dollars. |
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