RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

And I thought my wife's soap operas were bad, hmmm, I will tune in tomorrow for " As The Prop Turns".

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

I think, maybe, just maybe, that the only people that designates or requires what defines a designated AMA PPP club, is the club and only the club. You guys are giving the AMA way too much credit in their place in the world. The AMA is the provider of resources and tools only, club members are the ones whom provide THEIR OWN designation and flight paths.

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

The clubs didn't set the rules that are supposed to be followed. The pitcure in question does have a Stryker (NOT LEGAL AS PARK FLYER) in it.
This is supposedly the first Cartered PPP Club.
If I owned a stryker i would after seeing this pic. feel I could fly mine as a ppp member only. Not having to have full membership as I do.
I can't fly one of those fast suckers anyway. It is gone by before i know it is coming lol. But if the Chartered Club that AMA says is its first and puts
there pic in there mag. then they should have made sure every plane would be a legal park flyer. A mistake was made i would think and they did not
even realise it at the time. Now they probabaly do. Would be good for someone of authority to chime in.

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

STL,
you are saying you'd have no propbelm with PPP Chartered Club members
flying a bunch of Glow, Gas, Turbine under the PPP Charter
if thats what that club wants to define PPP Club as in its local rules?

So that checkbox maens nothing in your opinion,
that if you check PPP AMA Charter or not you can fly whatever you want
making that lable worthless and misleading:
Is a PPP Chartered Club PPP? No, PPP has limits and that club dont, not PPP club

Thanx for clearing this up,
we will be seeing your definition alot coming up, as we will be quoting it hreavily once the official answer comes

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

MM

LOL... That hit the spot! Of course you could ask ole Ernest T. A pic and a few brick throwing words is about all you'll get tho.

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. The first PPP chartered club is FLUFF. You got it!! Right on this time KE, you nailed it! The club can decide to do whatever they want at THEIR field at any time.

The AMA provided tools, the club ran with the tools and landed an article in MA. Fluff for the AMA, fluff for the club.

Welcome to America ... it's not always WYSIWYG, sometimes there is perception thrown into the mix. Sort of like the price of oil right now ... do you think it's based on supply and demand or lots and lots of fluff and an artifical number?

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

Well thanx STL,
we went thru the trouble of debunking the mythical Urban PPP Charter months ago,
and you have debunked the PPP Charter now.

The PPP Chartered club is no diferent than the Heli, Electric, RadioControl, or Multi Interest "-chartered" clubs.

Thank god they finally have a checkbox for PPP, rather than using the Electric Only
which of course has the AMA allowing Glow at Electric Only chartered club (unless the clubs local rules prevent that):eek:

Now that Muncie has ran headlong into this,
putting the spotlight on the giant miscarriage the PPP charter is,
when will it start making sense?
When will the AMA stop allowing glow at clubs Muncie charter as Electric Only or PPP

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

Except PPP is quiet propulsion only, 2 lbs., 60 mph etc.

So someone goofed, BFD.

As to interests, I'm interested in dirt bikes. Got two of 'em. I don't ride them on the flying field. Or the golf course. Or Wally World parking lot.

I ride where appropriate, and fly where appropriate. I know what is appropriate by using common sense and a little logic.

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

804,
Yes, that is what PPP is.
And we can read the limitations/restrictions of PPP Memebership.

The point STL is making is that while PPP Memebership has rules defining those restrictions,
"PPP Chartered" Clubs dont.

Where is the AMA text that states an AMA Heli-Charter club cannot fly fixed wing models at their site?
Where is the AMA text that states an AMA FF-Charter club cannot have controled flight at their site?
And so with the ElectricOnly and PPP.

We all know what that implies, but where is the AMA text that gives those words binding meaning?
That is the question Abel Stick & I were asking.
And while we have one guy that alleges there is no restrictions on the club based on that check selection, an official comment that the checkboxes have no actual meaning would be nice.

Take 3 clubs,
ClubA charters and checks Heli
ClubB charters and checks ParkPilot
ClubC charters and checks Electric Only
What AMA text defines the restrictions the Heli club has?
Did it say Heli Only? The FF and RC dont say FF Only or RC Only. The Heli doesnt say Heli Only, The PPP doesnt say PPP only. Ahhh, but the Electric Only does say Electric Only. Of all the checkboxes, the language shows that just one of them is restricted to just that kind of flight. Where is the text that says it is ok to fly FF at a Heli Charter, where is the AMA text that says you can fly CL or FF at the RC Charter? Or the AMA text that says you cant?

Why is this a problem, we've had all kinds of different clubs for years.
Because we had all kinds of flight, but they all had one insurance... and that insurance wasnt voided for one guy flying a plane the next guy is not voided. (Turbine & 55+ not charter concerns, so lets not worry about them at the moment). A heli or FF pilot can fly a CL or Electric without any worries about model limits on the pilot.... but not so with the PPP Tier. Now we have to actually worry about if a guy is rated for a model every real member is allowed to fly.

They put a PPP checkbox on the form, what does it mean?
That answer is.... .... .... .... uh... that answer is what we want to know too.
Good thng they ran full steam on the PPP,
with plenty of lead time for us to work out the kinks with Q&A on it while it was still theory,
else we might end up printing pictures of a PPP Charter Club with Non-PPP planes.


This is not so much a thread on if they are obeying the AMA PPP Charter rules,
but asking what are the AMA PPP Charter rules.



The only text I've found was at the PPP webbie page, the Comparison
wow. Looks like the refer to there being rules that the PPP Charter Club is indeed AMA Mandate PPP Only... we just need to find those rules. BUt the comparison made it clear, they explained that AMA PPP fields are indeed PPP Only.

If we cant locate them, we shouldnt feel bad, MA & Muncie cant find them either by the looks of that Stryker Pic.

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

yes sir,, umhum, thats it, right on, what he said.

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

No, this is the point STL is making, and is the salient one.

_ ____________________________

Here At The Wall



If you can read the verbage on PPP membership app., as you say, then you know the limitations.

Maybe at some future date AMA can clarify and focus the language so as not to confuse the reading and understanding challenged.

As to the picture in MA, I repeat: so someone screwed up, BFD.

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

Who wants to know? Who is "we"? I see 1 guy maybe 2 asking what does it mean and it's the same one, two guys that need the same answers from the AMA day in and day out on this board. You want your answers and you want it now.

But the funny thing is that the AMA already answered you, I don't know why you just can't understand it .... As a Park Pilot Member, flying may or may not be restricted to just the NEW fields approved only for Park Pilot members (that decision is left to existing Open clubs). That's it ... that's your answer, anything above and beyond that is someone or some people just looking for something to type.

And in regards to the guy holding the stryker ... well It's HIS and HIS CLUBS business, not yours. Nobody here knows what kind of powerplant he has on that plane and what kind of membership card he holds. The club can do whatever they want whenever they want. If they want to be a full scale airport tomorrow ... so be it. Why on EARTH would anyone want the AMA to TELL US what we can and what we can't fly at OUR fields. THEIR club members decide ... not you or the AMA.

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

"only for Park Pilot members" Hmmm...It seems you have contradicted yourself again. Nothing new but once again you have raised more questions and have answered none.
Everything you have posted thus far in this thread has been negated by that one sentence you used to make a point[sm=spinnyeyes.gif] even though it (the sentence) isn’t applicable to whether the club broke any rules or not.

The sentence you used to bolster your erroneous perceptions pertains to PPP members and whether they can fly at real AMA chartered flying sites or not. Can’t even be sure the sentence you used is a correct assessment of the rules…any rules…maybe another thread topic for us to debate the obvious or the none existent.

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

Of course... the sentence makes no sense anyway. err...may or may not make sense...sorry.:eek:

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

"the NEW fields approved only for Park Pilot members"

And lookie here,
we have the first of these new fields,
with a pic in MA of them breaking the rule STL just quoted for truth.

Vegas is the first of the great new way to charter PPP with AMA.
The new PPP way.
Groundbreaking to the point that it gets to be in MA as an important first.

Which is either BS, there is no new PPP ONLY charter- the myth of the Urban PPP Charter is still hooey,
or if we believe what AMA says in their comparison, these new PPP fields are .... OMG[X(], they are PPP Only




For starters,
the PPP member KidEpoxy wants to get some info on the PPP charter & PPP clubs.
Why would you stand in the way, or find it odd, that a PPP guy wants PPP info.

STL, either help the PPP member or dont,
but dont say the PPP guys shouldnt come to RCU AMA forum looking for help with chartering questions.
STL, would it be better if a PPP member started a thread called "Does chartering PPP require PPP only at the club?" Then you can type up the lack of text in the charter kit, and others can type up about the PPP Comparison, and we can still have a lack of clear answer.

Know what, I know one of them official AMA provoded PPP HelperGuys.
I'll ask GlacierGirl what the real deal is on this PPP charter rules question... after all, this is like exactly what that progrm is supposed to be doing, have real AMA'ers answer PPP startup questions... right?
Or is that program a bunch of hooey as well?
Where is VAFrank when we need him.

Somebody get Frank & Glacier in here to fill in the Fact Void we have going on.
Some guy is interpreting the charter kit one way, some guy is interpreting the Webbie Comparison a different way... neither has straight clear binding text from the AMA.

I'm PPP
Whats the actual binding rules about chartering these new PPP dealies,
cause as a PPP member I might want to start an Urban PPP Club in the park in town (~8miles from the existing club) for lunchtime flying of foamies with 4 friends. Might, depending on the actual specifics of the chartering rules & limits.

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

Who do you think approved this ... the AMA or the club?

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

If the five of you chartered as PPP club and had a club rule of PPP class airplanes only, by choice or due to an agreement with the park officials, then you would be a PPP only club. STL's point exactly.

Parsing words is a fun hobby too I guess, and arguing for the sake of argument but what exactly is " this great miscarriage the PPP charter is "? Have you or anyone else been harmed or even affected in any way?

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

Again, thats right Robo
That is what an AMA club can do in their Charter, Bylaws, or plain old Rules.

When you say
"five of you chartered as PPP club and had a club rule of PPP class airplanes only"
what does that first part do?
The part before you said AND. What difference does that have on the local limits the club may or manot choose to impose on its own?

Whynot check the FreeFlight box, and have PPP ONLY as local club rules.
Why not check the PPP box and not have any PPP ONLY local rules: You are a Glow&FF allowed, PPP Chartered club

What is the charter difference in a FF Chartered club vs a PPP Chartered club?
Where is it explained what difference the various checkboxes have, and what bearing that has on the club?
Should I check PPP, or Multi
... or just spin the wheel because the checkboxes actually mean nothing- Muncie dont mind folks flying glow at PPP Chartered clubs

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

Zackly ... Muncie don't mind, cause Munie has NO say in the matter.

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

OMG! Where is this going? PPP chartered club? Hmmm, tells me that 2lbs and 60mph. NO glow/gas. Interesting. Can the PPP chartered club allow gas/glow and still maintain AMA insurance and graces? Is this one for the lawyers or the guns or the one who has the most money? I say send in the lawyers and let them fight it out! If that fails, bring the big guns!

Tell me what you know to be true. And back it with some facts from the AMA!!!! Also want some documentation with names, dates and places...I forgot, Maxwell Smart is on assignment and his shoe phone is epoxied together with agent 99s sneaker.
Mean Monte[>:]

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

those checkboxes got nothing to do with the charter. they are for statistical information only. as in, how many of what type activity centered clubs are there. kinda like the areas of interest checkboxes on the membership app.

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

Thanks Mongo

I guess, statisticly speaking,
there is exactly one club that is PPP Chartered,
but still entirely no PPP Chartered PPP ONLY clubs.

So much for the mythical Urban PPP Charter plan,
someday Muncie might make it a reality,
but we've only had PPP running wide open throttle for 6 months, they will figure out what to do with it eventually, and eventually we might get a real Urban PPP Chartered club like we were promised back 8-9 months ago.

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

Kid,
Well, ya know, I think, and then this other guy said, and then he said, and then....blah, blah blah....
Everything I have found on PPP states 2lbs or less, 60mph or less. No gas/glow...But then STL tell us that it is up to the club whether or not to allow gas/glow in a PPP chartered club. Also said is up the PPP chartered club to allow the more high performance electric aircraft....HUH? I am so confused.!. He said/they said...Help us all on this PPP chartered stuff....

My understanding-if a gas/glow club wants to allow a PPP member to fly with them that's fine, but that person may be required to obtain an open membership...Whereas-a PPP chartered club may not allow gas/glow powered aircraft to be flown at their airfield....Can of worms, huh?

So Kid, come and fly with us again...

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

Well, your understanding was correct ...up to the second sentence. No, wait, you blew the first one too. Should be "that person is be required to obtain an open membership" not "that person may be required to obtain an open membership." An open member may, in respect to AMA insurance coverage, fly anywhere he or she wishes as long as he/she abides by the AMA safety code. That subject has been beaten to death in numerous threads.

KE: Still waiting for the explanation on the "great miscarriage". Where's the harm? Where's the beef? You chose to join the AMA as a PPP member yet you seem to have nothing but chronic disdain for both. Relax. As STL pointed out it's just feel good PR fluff anyway. You can still fly your PPP legal stuff at the local AMA field and fly your glow stuff "outlaw" as you stated your intentions to be.

For the OP: If the supected offender in the photo has been flying a > 2lbs. >60mph model with a PPP membership then yes he is breaking the AMA rules and would not be covered in the case of a mishap. If he is an open member then, no, he is not breaking AMA rules. Such is the advantage that comes with ponying up full fare for an open membership.

All in all it seems as though there's a cadre of folks in here that b**ch just to hear themselve b**ching when it comes to the AMA or anything related to it.

RE: Is the first Chartered PPP club violating the rules?
 

It has been done to death, and some folks still dont get it.
A regular AMA glow club may or maynot allow PPP members to fly there, at the clubs choosing.
We even had a thread listing off clubs that were and were not allowing PPP folks to fly there without $58Open.
Open membership IS NOT required by the ama to fly at a regular club, the only heartache Muncie has with PPP folks flying PPP models at real clubs is they intended the PPP guys to fly at their own new PPP only clubs.

Monte said "may be required", and that is correct. Some clubs require $58Open to fly PFs next to the Gasers.
Robo said "is required", and that is not correct. Someone with PPP membership, like say... Kid Epoxy, is allowed by Muncie to fly at regular real clubs that choose to not require $58Open, like say... TUFF. TUFF, using its pre-PPP regular charter & bylaws allows PPP members to fly there, I am pretty certain Stick's club, using the same pre-PPP charter does not.

So someone that tries to replace "may be required" (what Muncie says) with "is required" really should be calling Muncie and telling them how wrong they are. Go ahead, tell them they are making a mistake. Let them know they are wrong on their PPP webbie. Tel them about the errors AMA put in print in the PPP literature. If you really mean that folks saying "may be required" are so wrong, you should get on Muncie for being so wrong.

But if you do,
I dont recomend telling folks here about it. You may be labled an AMA Hater for whining about muncie being wrong when Muncie said "may be". I know you would have called AMA, to tell them they made a mistake, with the best intent but the others here just dont cotton to folks like you trying to stop muncie from being wrong. But I would aplaud your efforts. So many guys here see things Muncie does wrong, but bravo for you showing the courage to call AMA and tell them it is "is required" where Muncie sayas "may be required".



huh? Affected in any way?
Lets see, as an AMA member I had a vote, and as an 2nd Class AMA Serf I dont. Thats one way anyone was affected in anyway.

Another is the way this thread is being draggedoff topic by a poorly thought out and equally poorly implemeted program to tap into the PF market.... if it were not for PPP existing we wouldnt be dragging this Charter Rules thread off topic to whether PPP should exist.

Another is the poor saps at the #1 PPP Chartered club showing a PPP-Illegal plane to all the aspiring PPP guys... if that PPP club can have it why cant we- well, as long as all PPP members read this RCU thread they will know the answer but if they dont then how do the know not to do what they see celebrated as PPP Clubbing.


Usually I have to use another post a guy made to show him contradicting himself.
You corrected Monty that it is not an optional "may be required",
then later admit that my regular AMA club does allow PPP to flythere without it... how exactly did my club do that if you say Monty is wrong that it is a May Be required.




Now can we get back to the topic of the thread: The new PPP Charter & what it doesnt mean