FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

<span style="font-size: larger;">Hello All -</span>

As a very avid r/c'er and aviation enthusiast, the response by the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) to the pending rulings of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regarding sUAS's has me quite concerned for the future of our hobby. The concern does not lie within the response from the AMA, but the lack of response from our own community of hobbyists.

For me, the reality of the present situation is dire and the very existence of our hobby is threatened, if not by extinction but at least by severe limitations from decisions to be made by the FAA.

Yet the only response I see is from the AMA.

Over the years I have come to learn more, understand, respect, and awe at organizations like the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) and the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA) and how well they have managed a tight bond in representing the General Aviation voice and their rights when it comes to governmental rule-making.

I guess my concern lies within our own community and what seems to be at best a lackluster interest in anything else but our own hobby. As the AMA is assembling a Task Force (of which I have applied) to reassess its direction and to preserve our future as an organization I can't help but wonder the impact of aligning our hobby once again, with its roots of General Aviation.

Isn't General Aviation where our roots are founded?

I feel as if our passion and romance of flight has been lost to the desire of "bigger is better" or "mine is better then yours" attitudes. A respect for everyone as simply a pilot, regardless of skill or aircraft, seems to be lost, whereas in the General Aviation community (via personal experiences at EAA, Oshkosh) regardless of what you fly (even IFyou fly), how often, or how long, the love of flight is what fuels their passion.

Our community seems to be separating, and in some cases dissolving, as we've lost our passion and love for the enjoyment of flight

We need to regather our strength and move forward as a whole to build up our community once again. Support one another and make that support known to the AMA &amp; the FAA by aligning ourselves once again with the industry that made us.

Only then by understanding the 'why' of the potential changes being proposed and showing our support and understanding of both General Aviation and our hobby can we move forward together.

Thanks everyone.

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

I couldn't care less about the FAA. They have no boots on the ground, nofunding and almost nostaffing. They are a paper tiger. Ignore them and they don't exist.

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

I Think we will have to wait and see just what itis that the FAAis looking to do and go from there.

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">FrankHawks -</span>

I'm curious as to where your stance originated from towards the FAA?

Reason I ask is that regardless of how much we choose to ignore them, they will be the large white elephant in the room when it comes to regulating air space. Regardless if it's Gen Aviation or, as they are classifying our hobby, sUAS's.

This is why I'm pushing for a closer relationship with the Gen Av. community. As the sUAS market inevitably will increase across the U.S. (in a non-military way (i.e. agriculture, border patrol, land management,etc.)) we need to understand the what and why of things taking place. This is the only way that we can defend our hobby - by understanding why they want to make rulings. For my part, appreciating and understanding Gen. Av. and the FAA only makes sense and could create only benefits for our hobby.

At the risk of sounding harsh, a lot of our community is coming across as elitist and having an attitude of not caring about anything but our hobby. And I will not be surprised if pending FAA rulings "upset the balance" of our hobby and only after the fact, do we respond. We need to be proactive - not reactive.

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

I think we need to to be represented as a hobby group that flies model airplanes by line of sight with human eyeballs first hand and we avoid all other aircraft with humans onboard and the SUAV, UAV,UAC AND UFC is not related to us at all and we need to display seperation from them at all cost.

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

If they end up building a special penetentiary to lock up all the model plane flyers...we'll get them to set aside an area to fly control line and fly micro 3D.

They'll have to hire thousands of special agents, too...to enforce the new rules...so that'll put some Americans back to work!

So, what's the down side.....[8D]?

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

<span style="font-size: larger;"><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">Plane Jim -</span></span>

I understand your position but, if you look at the stance the AMAis takingregarding the FAA rulings (per my links above) you'll notice that the AMAis <u>not</u> taking this lightly. If you want separation, that can be arranged, however be prepared to scale down dramatically the what, where, and when of flying radio control. From what I'm gathering the AMA is not encouraging the "ignorance is bliss" mentality when it comes to our organizations and their future.

Is it that you just don't care about general aviation or is it that you see no value in how it plays a part in our hobby? I'm just curious....

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

When did we have an oportunity to comment? I thought we were still in the rule making stage.

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

You won't find any love there. They want us to get our models certified and take pilots exams. Those people actualy think a Cessna 172 is safe!

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

That sums up my thoughts regarding the manned aircraft interests, Sport. They (reps from their orgs) feel they own all the airspace, and were the major proponents for the proposed operating limits/regulation of model aircraft that came out the sUAS ARC according to other participants in that fiasco. They don't deserve and won't have my support when the local politicos push to close down their muni-owned GA airports to build sports stadiums and golf courses.

Cletus

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

Where is the industrt that brought model aviation to where it is today with the large models that are almost the norm? Where are the other industry support people?
Let's look at some items that may provide a clue:

Model Airplane News, JULY 2010 issue. Page 7, HORIZON HOBBY, (JR) (Spectrum) etc. etc. Full Page ad titled "Teach Yourself to Fly, on Your Own Turff with Hobby Zone Champ" 22.4" w/s.

NOPE no AMA, Club, etc. there.

Same mag, page 38: "Article "Secrets From The PROS" Question "What's the NEXT HOT TREND IN RC?"
Mike McConville, Horizon Hobby Distributors: "My new job focus is on micro RC plane design, ...." similiar to park fliers were some five or six years ago..." "I call them yard flyers" " ...step out the front door and have the same flight experience as you have at the flying field." "....not a fad - precision RC micro flyers are here to stay!"

No big Airplanes and Clubs being favored there. No Siree!

Your AMA EVP has some big names on his AMA Marketing Committee. Are they planning other than an AMA as we know AMA?

Maybe FAA won't be interested in your yard birds, er uh I mean Yard Flyers. [sm=greedy.gif]

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

What leads you to believe that I do not care about general aviation nor see the value in relation to our hobby? Please Explain?

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

Hhmm, you must know something FH; thatall pilots, mechanics, dispatchers, CFI's, etc, etc, don't know.....
hQQk

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt"><span style="font-size: 9pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Very interesting statement, andwell thought out too Apwa. There are a few, and that is a very few, that explored these DBs to gather a sense of what really could be done from this vantage point. I left a few weeks back when a few PMs were received. There are a few here that have a very good sense of the most likely direction that energies should be focused on. However, if you read through the threads on this subject, you'll find it's more like a scatter plot. My efforts were focused on approaching or attempting an effort at nominating an individual, perhaps an FAA inspector, (much to the chagrin of numerous folks around here I'm sure) familiar with sUAS, General Aviation, EAA, AOPA, and the AMA (a member even), to provide guidance or assistance. Contrary to the general belief, they dothat. Plane Jim has the right focus; it's really about LoS andobserving theseparation requirement from participants in the NAS, controlled or otherwise. Certainly it does not have an influence on each and everymodeler, but as you stated;is the communityfragmented or viewed as awhole?
Personally, I sense that for the most part modelingwillbe fairly well okay as it is. Some exceptions may be where fields are in close proximity to airports or lower level flight activities such as aerobatic boxes or practice areas. Although, until the NPRM is published and open for comment, who really knows. Anyhow, that was and still is pretty much my two cents.
Hook
AMA 63845
SPA 384
former AOPA, EAA, NAFI
N641RM - RV-6 builder/owner
ATP / CFI-MEIA / Sport Pilot CFI
oh yeah,the much malignedASI too</span></p>

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">Plane Jim -</span>

My curiousity about your stance lies in your own comment, <span style="color: rgb(128, 0, 0);">"...onboard and the SUAV, UAV,UAC AND UFC is not related to us at all and we need to display seperation from them at all cost."</span>

Part of me agree's with your statement, however, what Isensed is that you want complete separation from the FAA/GA and what is the AMA and/or our hobby? Of course, forums dismiss the tone of each ones statement, so I could be wrong.Am I?

I tend to align more with <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">hook57</span>'s reply regarding our communities. I'm not a full scale pilot, but have been in love with aviation since gradeschool and it was the accessability of r/c aircraft that allowed me to come closer to what I love. I have been in numerous conversations with all levels of pilots (GA, Military, etc.) and not once has anyone dismissed my "hobby" - they've only asked about what Ifly, when I fly, and why Iand they love aviation. The EAA has nailed it as the "Spirit of Aviation". And I've never met a more amazing crowd of people not related in anyway other then 'love of flight' - who support and promote their 'hobby'.

My point (in this post) is that if we're aligned more with industries that DOimpact our hobby, be it big or small, issues like the early 80's frequency rulings and now the sUAS rulings won't take us by surprise or anger us as if it 'came out of no where'. Plus, what harm can come from understanding the real world of aviation. Pardon my candor but, some r/c pilots could use some flight schooling to keep the rest of use safe on the field and to promote our hobby how we would want to be promoted.

I guess I don't subscribe to the old ways of doing things and am always looking forward. For me, I don't see the harm, only benefit of having a helping hand on our side of whom is well established and willing to help (i.e. AOPA, EAA, etc.)<span style="font-weight: bold;">.</span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255);"><span style="font-size: larger;">

<span style="font-size: smaller;">Note to hook57</span></span> </span>- I have many aviation friends from UND whom I've met through my girlfriend (UND Aviation Graduate "Go Fighting Sioux") who support your views and mine and would love to get involved with the AMA but, as you've stated, resistance can be strong at times. Thanks for your support. And oh, btw RV-6's are awesome!! .... oh and one last thing:I'm very intrigued with your proposal about nominating a rep. from GA. Ithink that would be a great first step in aligning our interests and expanding each others love of flight. Solid idea.....seriously.

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

I also think this, in theory, could help make R/C safer through manditory education, however I have personally flown with many "trained and educated" licensed pilots that were poorly trained and dangerously ill informed. I see this as an attemt to 1. close possible loopholes in controlling UAV's and 2. provide a way to track (licensing of pilots and aircraft ie: N numbers) and hold accountable modelers that may cause harm. Remember the FAA was created to protect the general public from those "crazy and dangerous" pilots. Just look on "youtube" they are all over it. Even though they are the minority, they get all the attention.

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

There is an incredible lace of inforcement! Sure they will catch you if doing something wrong that shows up on radar near a large airport, but they rarely catch improper maintenance of small aircraft till it crash's. And you won't see any of them at the model air field. Still IMO he has the wrong attitude.

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

I agree, there was too many pilots who should have been in trouble with the FAA regularly when I was flying full scale. Flying closer than 500 feet from building and people when it can be helped is common. Lot of buzzing, etc as well. Flying the next morning after a night out in town. No boots on the ground with the FAA the controller's are almost the only enforcer's. Its no wonder General Aviation is more dangerous than a motor cycle. IFR at least.

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

We all know compliance is on the honor system. Sign this saying you did that, etc. And most airlines even put their foot down and say no. We are too busy. That cost too much. We can't do that now. And they negotiate a new schedule which they may or may not comply with, etc.Andthose are themost legal operations.

129k airplanes to regulate in the US and how many models? A couple of million ? 2 million unregistered models? So the FAA is going to increase in size by a factor of 17? And find all of us ?

BTW, since the AMA site clearly states that the agreement with the FAA will likely make the safety code mandatory from here on out instead of voluntary, how is that different ? Why must you stand up against that ? Thats the big difference folks. Thats the big fear we are talking about. The saftey code becomes mandatory. OMG, that is the end of the world.The big bad over regulating monster has its claws in us now.

You guys have computors. You can research this if you try.

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

<span style="font-size: larger;"><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">FrankHawks -</span></span>

Point made, I understand your stance, and as you said there is no way to regulate everything. That's just impossible.

But from my vantage point, the regulation of <u>certain</u> classes of r/c <u>is very important</u>. Case in point, the current AMA waiver that turbine users must sign in order to fly at AMA sanctioned fields. Or the waiver you must sign in order to fly an aircraft that is above a certain weight. Of course you could fly these 'under the wire' but if something happens, your going to be in heaps of trouble! Not to mention possibly cast out of the AMA or have a black mark on your name.

What the FAA is attempting (and the AMA is working w/them) is to ensure public safety by regulating certain aircraft that can cause serious harm if unfortunate events were to occur. Both on the ground and in the air.

If we honor and promote our own system and enforce our own guidelines and practice a culture of safety; we all win. We look good in the eyes of the public interest, we look good in the eyes of the FAA and General Aviation, and most of all we look good amongst our own community.

Because the technology has caught up with us, rules need to be put in place. I, for one, am not a fan of someone flying a 120+MPH / 35lbs+ aircraft who has not 'proven their ability' to fly through proper channels.

Flying is a privilege, not a right.


<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255);">Note to everyone:</span> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255);">I really appreciate the candor and honesty in this forum. For as heated as we may get, the dialogue, for me, is helpful.</span>

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

Why mix apples and oranges? What the AMA requires doesn't stop you from flying, you can still fly from a private field. If you are worried about getting into trouble if you crash you can get insurance elsewhere. If you own the property you are flying from then your property insurance may cover it. With the FAA they can stop you from flying for good if they rewrite the regulation and nobocy challanges it.

The FAA has no authority on the ground, except at airports. Read FAA Part 77 for their authority on ground vehicles near airports. IMO (most here strongly disagree) the only regulation that pertains to us is Part 77.

Me either but as long as its under 500 feet and not near an airport its non of the FAA's da#^ business. The AMA can enforce their rules, and if its on their on property its nobody's da#^ business.

Actually thats not quite true. Its not a constitutional right perhaps, but lots of things considered rights are not enumerated in the Constitution. In fact there is a phrase that says the people have the right when not given to the government. The thing that gives the govenment the power to regulate is the commerse clause. We have the right to commerse, but federal and state government has the power to regulate it. That does not mean flying should be a privilage. It is still a right, but a regulated right. A privilage would be serving your country, especially with high rank such as POTUS. A privilage would mean that only those in power, say politicians and the military can fly.

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

The FAA does not share your interpretation, and they are the only ones who count. Perhaps you could contact them to enlighten them as to the errors in their understanding of their regulations.

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

What I find "interesting" is how a few of you feel the AMA has control/say over the whole RC community, they don't. The AMA can only "control" those that join the organization, yet somehow they are helping right rules that will effect everyone, AMA member or not.

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

Not really. The AMA has no involvement at all with what the FAA is doing. In fact, the FAA has made it clear that they cannot even divulge the general direction that they are going.

The FAA is writing rules that will cover ALL of RC unless they operate under an accepted safety program administered by a recognized community based organization. So the AMA plan, if accepted by the FAA, will only apply to AMA members. Otherwise the FAA regulations will apply. If the AMA were not to prepare and submit a plan, or if the FAA rejects it, then the FAA regulations will apply to everyone.

RE: FAA & AMA - What's Your Vested Interest?
 

Wait wait you now have me confused.

Is it one of the below or a combination?

1)The FAA is going to write rules that only apply to AMA members but not RC in general. General RC would be under a different set of rules.

2) FAA will require AMA membership (recognized community based organization) to operate RC planes?

3) The FAA makes just one set that applies to everyone.

I am not being a smart a** here I am truly a bit confused as to what the AMA's interaction is with the FAA on RC flight restrictions.