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You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

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You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

Old 12-24-2010, 06:24 PM
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Shaun Evans
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Default You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

Hi,

I'm sure I'm going to get jumped on for this, but I just cracked open my Model Aviation mag (Jan '11 Issue) and was a little saddened to read the article about "Warbirds Over the Pacific." With such a powerful-sounding name, I was expecting to see some of those amazing birds you see in the Top Gun videos, or at least a few kit-built (if not scratch-built) models. Instead, first place in Military was won by a KMP ARF...the kind with the control-horn backing plate proudly strutting its stuff on the top side of the control surfaces.

I remember when you left your ARF's at the home field when you went to a meet (unless it was a fun-fly), and took your years-long, kit-built birds to the fly-ins. I know I sound like a snob or whatever, but is the building part of the hobby just dead?? You can win first-place with a cookie-cutter ARF now?

Disheartened.... [&o]
Old 12-24-2010, 06:56 PM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

YA this is just the way it is now. Dont get me wrong all that know me know i have ARFs in my tailer. I am how ever getting back to the sticks this year on the build table. Like i was once told you dont have to build the piano to play it.

By the way check out Model Airpalne new feb 2011 page 62 that big bad b17 is from sticks and thats a good ol boy from north texas.
Old 12-24-2010, 07:00 PM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

If they are going to allow ARF's they should only judge on flight performance. Anything else has nothing to do with the entrant. The only ARF I own is a trainer that I use for teaching the kids and video and photo flights.
Old 12-24-2010, 07:28 PM
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ram3500-RCU
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

Check out the amended rules for Top Gun. You are going to see ARFs there as well.
Old 12-24-2010, 10:46 PM
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Shaun Evans
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

Hi,

It just seems so "defeated." Don't get me wrong, there are some stunning ARF's out there. Heck, many of them are OURS! Even so, your off-the-shelf warbird-ish ARF hardly seems like something you'd see at a 'warbird rally.' Even if you did, how does it get some kind of distinction? Best anything? Best engineering because we couldn't figure out how to hide the control-horn backplate and screws sticking out of the top of the aileron and flap? Best wire-gear? Best use of hot-glue?
Old 12-25-2010, 01:30 AM
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jdeluyck
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

YA,

I hear what you are saying!

I had a talk with a friend from Germany not along ago, and he said they have stopped doing scale competitions in favor of fun fly gatherings like Joe Nall. Here is the difference... Part of German culture is to do everything with vigor! Some might say OCD. That said, the planes they bring to the meets are beautiful. Their pride would not let them do anything but...

I have an GP Patty Wagstaff Extra 300 ARF that I have flown a bunch, However, when people pay me compliments about the airplane I always deflect them with a commment like "this is my fun plane, not for swowing off my building skills".

I think this is what you are trying to say... ARFs are fine, but when you go to an event bring something you can show with pride!

Jerry
Old 12-25-2010, 04:12 AM
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LDM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

I would not focus on the participant or the trend in ARFs , but focus on the competition . If your passionate about keeping competitions pure on building skills and creativity ect , pressure the board members of the event . Going down the road on what someone brings will simply end in the typical build vs arf discussion that has been beaten to death on RCU and never ends in anything good for the hobby .

I think what you seeing in these events has nothing to do with the passion to build or not to build , but to the almighty dollar . You know just as well as I do that some of the bigger events are major money makers as seen in the logos and sponsorship , so the key is seeing if they can continue to survive with the demographic groups that are going to watch , participate and or spend their money .
Old 12-25-2010, 04:34 AM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

a KMP one, or an ESM? We have them in the national championships here, but in flying only, in the upper classes, the points have to be earned by getting glue on fingers- shows how good artfs are getting though, dunnit? i have seen some of ours that are detailed to the hilt, one way of looking at it is a model is a blank canvas, either artf, or scratch,once the build is done with a scratch,most of the skill is in the detailing,
Old 12-25-2010, 08:34 AM
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Shaun Evans
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

LDM,

I see your point. Believe me, I do. I used to be an LHS manager and I remember when we stocked kits. You won't find them anymore in that LHS. All of the planes are ARF's. The question is whether or not they come with everything (cheeeeep crap that no modeler would ever install in a plane that didn't already have the stuff in it) installed or if you have to be an experienced, retired modeler who can afford to spend one afternoon and install his own servos. The "ARF or not to ARF" debate is definitely tired, but I think the test of time is showing that the ARF's are winning (but in a way, we're all losing).

The model that got me crying about this wasn't some 'detailed-to-the-max' warbird, it was a stock ARF that a guy took from the online store to the field and won a trophy. I can't tell you how many times I've had someone walk up to one of my models at the field and ask, "Which ARF is that? Did you have to put the servos in, or did it come like that?" When I reply that I built it from a kit, they'll follow up with, "Yeah, I know, but which one? KMP?"

Not only are the more and more unaware that there exists such a thing as a kit, but are less and less impressed even when they find out that the rivets and panel lines were done by you.
Old 12-25-2010, 09:52 AM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

an ARF won WBOP eh? now top gun is allowing them in too. thats pretty funny. yep, pretty funny.
Old 12-25-2010, 10:15 AM
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DavidAgar
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

I have to agree that the ARF world has moved into scale meets like it has, but it was just a matter of time before it did. I am a kit builder and I just love a scale meet with the static judging. It has always been a good time to speak with master builders and find out how they did certain things on the model and to admire their work. All meets were set up in 2 parts and if your static scores were not that good you could make up for it in flight or if you could not fly that well, static scores could help you out. Now the trend is turning away from craftsmanship and flying to just flying, which as I said was bound to happen. The industry is now turning out some good looking ARFs and as they say they are time savers. I still attend the fun scale meets where ARFs are everywhere, but I still bring one of my own built models and while I may not win the meet, I can still relish in the good time that I had building the model before the meet. Now if the day comes an ARF win's Top Gun, I will truly be saddened as Top Gun is one of the premiere events that is still a scale event, but it seems destined to happen. As they say progress is catching up to us weather we like it or not. Good Luck, Dave
Old 12-25-2010, 10:39 AM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

They may compete at Top Gun, but I don't see any getting 1st place right away, although highly prefabricated and composite jets have been given high static scores in the past. The judges are in the drivers seat on that. It would seam that eventually, you would see, as we all get older and older, even judges with limited building experience, as time goes on.

With the proliferation of ARFs in the hobby, and the dwindling number of builders (as indicated by the building supplies and kits being stocked at local hobby shops) events may need to widen the options to modelers to maintain participation and support. I don't know. Although being a scale builder since my entry into RC, I have for the most part have admired the competition, from afar, for decades, and only just more recently actually gotten seriously involved. I hope standards of excellence and things like the "builder of the model" rules and appreciation for craftsmanship will continue to be major considerations. ARFs will have a hard time competing with all that. But again, it all comes down to judging.
Old 12-25-2010, 01:45 PM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

Yeah, I love these guys that buy pre-fab Turbine jets with completely molded fuses and foam core wings and call that a kit! How many "built up" jet airframes have you seen competing on the circuit? Many of the BVMs or Yellows and such are one step away from being ARFs aren't they? Granted they take quite a bit more time to primer and finish, but as ALANC said, any arf can be a blank canvas for the addition of super detailing, all the way to hidden control linkages and over the top rivet and weathering and cockpit detail. I don't believe they usually compete in the same class as designer/builder scale events. If there is an ARF class to be allowed so be it. The more planes in the air the merrier. You can't fight the inevitable, people like convenience. If it was not for Arfs and electrics this hobby might have become extinct by now!
Old 12-25-2010, 02:24 PM
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Shaun Evans
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?


ORIGINAL: MANFRED

Yeah, I love these guys that buy pre-fab Turbine jets with completely molded fuses and foam core wings and call that a kit! How many ''built up'' jet airframes have you seen competing on the circuit? Many of the BVMs or Yellows and such are one step away from being ARFs aren't they?

If it was not for Arfs and electrics this hobby might have become extinct by now!

Well,

I would respectfully disagree with much of that. I'm guessing from what you wrote that you probably haven't built a Y/A jet kit. If you have, I'd love to see pics.

Some of us actually think that the influx of the ARF thing has hurt as much as helped. I can tell you that people might be coming into the hobby at higher numbers (maybe) but they are getting out of the hobby just as quickly. Also, a huge portion of the hobby has been exported. When I first got into the hobby back in 1990, there were not only many American kit manufacturers, but several LHS's in San Diego. Now, most of them are out of business, and most of the hobby materials are made overseas. There are good and bad things about this, but the first warbird rally I attended back in '93 had NO ARF's there except for after hours. They were all kit-built if not scratch-built. That made it worth driving out of state. If you're the type to go to a warbird rally with your Hobby People brand plane, then more power to you. If you think that's the salvation of our hobby, then I just chalk it up to there's room in this world for more than one point of view. I surely don't want to open my AMA mag to read about a warbird rally and see pics of a bunch of crap that the proud winner simply had to bolt his engine to and screw his control-horn screws through the top surface of the wings. They should call that an ARFbird rally.

Seriously, I was flying as a guest at the Miramar club once, and there was a guy there with a KMP or CMP (I don't remember) Spitfire ARF. It was large, like a 1/6th scale. It was a nice looking ARF to be sure, but it was very ARF-typical. It had really [unnecessarily] ugly hardware hanging all over it...and, yes, those control-horn plates I keep complaining about. It had gobs of dripped-out epoxy where the parts went together. It had a poorly-mounted engine where no regard for the spacing between the spinner backplate and the cowl was shown. It had HUGE gaps between the flying surfaces and the control surfaces. Even so, the pilot was holding court with his audience of very impressed spectators and you would have thought his firstborn son had just won an Olympic gold medal with the pride he was showing. That part wasn't what irritated me, it was the arrogant way he was offering everyone else advice on warbirds (and RC in general) whether they asked for it or not. He even noticed the absence of control horn plates on the top of my control surfaces, and asked if the safety officer of the club had signed off on me flying there. When I told him that my kit-built jet had plywood plates epoxied under the sheeting, and that the horns were epoxied-then-screwed through to the plywood...he looked like he had no idea that anyone had ever done anything other than use the kind he had. As far as he was concerned, he was an expert.

I just think that if that's the new standard, then that can't be good for the hobby.
Old 12-25-2010, 02:39 PM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

top gun potential.

check out this beauty:


perfectly scaled cowl and carb scoop


I've never seen more scale looking exhaust:


and that georgeous weathering, awesome:


sweet scale rudder & elevators rivets are awesome
tailwheel is to die for:


authentic wheels, how do they do it?!:


US ARMY above the wing, fuel tank fills on the wings
can it get any more scale?!?


yes it can! 1:5 fuse with 1:6 wings!





Old 12-25-2010, 02:44 PM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

My thought is short and to the pointI agree with Yellow Aircraft to the T,I would just like to add that China and a bigger part of the world today "knows a fool when they see one" and that's where they shall prey.Look around you and count the people who have any Integrity,self discipline or self satisfaction in there lives-my opinion were slidingwake up
Old 12-25-2010, 02:46 PM
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CorsairJock
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

Come gather 'round people Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters Around you have grown
And accept it that soon You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you Is worth savin' Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone For the times they are a-changin'

Just a thought for the anti-ARF crowd: what about the ARFs that are bashed beyond recognition. In other words, the ones that were stripped of covering and/ or paint, then 'glassed and painted as a good (or better) than built model would be, changes made to airframe to make it more scale accurate/ authentic than a kit built version, and/ or other scale details added.

About 7 yers ago, My Hangar 9 Corsair was awarded "Best Scale" by a pair of judges (Kieth Shaw & Ken Myer) that previously had never even considered giving any award to any ARF. My Corsair changed their minds, and it would obviously still beat out MOST simular size Top Flite Corsairs, because of the amount of bashing I did to it and details added, and the documentation that I provided to prove it's authenticity.

BTW: the judges WERE fully aware that this was a Hangar 9 ARF
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Old 12-25-2010, 02:56 PM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

hi  am just getting back into the hobby after a few decades off but i can proudly say i built my own planes and will contiue to do so and if more of us go to the field with our kit and scratch built planes more people will get into it. i try to help those at the field arf or not but allways try to promote the art of building
john
Old 12-25-2010, 03:02 PM
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Experten109/40
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

your method although very nice, its like buying parts to turn a fiero into a ferrari.
its still a fiero made by GM, not a ferrari builtby you.
Old 12-25-2010, 03:11 PM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

I think the key word here is 'RALLY' not competition.

Who's judging, what are their qualifications/experience & what are the judging criteria?

What sticks in my craw was attending a scale rally 'with prizes' & the judging panel were the women cooking the sausages on the BBQ.

Unsurprisingly, a Christen Eagle won! Did it actually fly?......... uh....what's that?

For the times they are a-changin'
Yep, and not for the better in my opinion. The ONLY reason ARF's are popular is the price. I'm sure if we had our own personal slaves working for nothing & could buy kits subsidised by the government for half price or less kits would still be built.

A friend who is a scale wannabe thought his TF B-25 should qualify as a scratch built model because it took so long to 'assemble'. It didn't last one flight so in the end it didn't matter. - John.
Old 12-25-2010, 03:42 PM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

ORIGINAL: Boomerang1
..............
For the times they are a-changin'
Yep, and not for the better in my opinion. .............- John.
The older ya get, the less ya like change. It may NOT be for the better, but like it or not: ..the present now will later be past, the order is rapidly fadin'. And the first one now will later be last, for times are ALWAYS changing. Get used to it, can't be stopped. BTW: I'm old and don't like change either.

But back to judging: IMHO: the thing that should matter MOST is how scale accurate/ authentic a model looks, REGARDLESS of how many hours and/ or dollars were put into it. If a modeler prefers to build from a kit (and/ or scratch build), but doesn't take the time to research and find out how the model is REALLY supposed to look, and mine beats his out because I DO know how it's supoosed to look (hours spent on research): then I have no sympathy for the kit builder. A warbird model worth building, is worth building RIGHT.

If you build a Top Flite Corsair, and follow the instructions and plans to the letter: Mine will beat yours out in scale accuaracy any time there are judges that know anything about Corsairs and how they are supposed to look.
Bottom line: judging should be done SOLELY on how true to scale a warbird is. NOT how it got that way.
Old 12-25-2010, 03:47 PM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

Corsair Jock said it. "My Hangar 9 Corsair was awarded "Best Scale" by a pair of judges". If an ARF takes first place, it comes down to judging. And judging is a highly fluid and opinionated activity. Opinions vary, and so does the eye of a judge, it would seem, as do the eyes of the builders. I'm a finish carpenter by trade and it is a fact that some guys will walk away from something they deem done, when others would seem to have a very different vision of whatever it is. Guess I'm saying that what looks good to some may not to others, or at least AS good. Judging must be very difficult in some venues.

I agree that the category separation in competition is important for this reason. Top Gun has refined the rules, as I understand it, to reward the builder who chooses to "build" rather than "assemble" as in the case of so many of the prefabricated jets available today. Sorry, Y/A but I agree that distinction must be made between molded, riveted, panel lined, hatched up, bought parts, and those actually hand made, but are still scale in apperance. The 'craftsmanship" points I guess is where this consideration is made. Certainly not in the general scale appearance as we all strive for quality and accuracy here. Many ARFs start with good attention to overall appearance but lack the detail that we scale builders require. Any good builder can add, almost as easy as build from scratch, these details.

Flying is where we are all humbled and compete on a more level ground. The plane has to fly well and in a scale manor, so does the pilot. No ARF, kit, or scratch issue can help here.

I'm not opposed to the ARF in competition. But I will be very disappointed in myself if I ever get beat out by one in my class of competition.[&o]
Old 12-25-2010, 03:59 PM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

No longer is skill involved in winning a scale contest. Just whoever can afford the best ARF.

Pathetic.
Old 12-25-2010, 04:24 PM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

RAM,
don't most ARF's have bigger then scale wings to help it fly? that should be a
point(s) deduction don't you think?

GraemeEllis,
you are correct. the guy who can afford the big buck ARF is gonna win. so sad.
Old 12-25-2010, 04:26 PM
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LDM
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Default RE: You Can Win First Place at a Warbird Rally With An ARF? Really?

As I stated in my first post , the battle seems to end in the same way and its not good for the hobby . I dont agree that an arf added with servos and motor should win a contest , but that is a poor contest board , not the fault of the entry model or trend in arfs , please remember the focus .
This hobby has more drama then a womens tea party , you have builders , bashers , arfs , foam , non foam , gas guys , eletric guys , glow guys ect , and God forbid you stray into a conversation on one subject that you are not an expert at but just want to learn , you stand the chance of getting based , really its silly and I only see it this hobby and many times just on this particulat website .
This hobby is for all aspect , as stated I have seen some arfs bashed into fine scale models , tons of work , so much so that its a wonder they just did not build it from scratch .
If you build a plane from plans and buy a fiberglass fuse is that cheating lol , is Goose Hanger 9 bash not scale building lol , remember the Luke Zolner bashes and Hal Humphrey bashed on the CMP Hellcat ? Look at post on RCU when this subject comes up , we use God , hate , stop ect , come on guys , its a hobby lets all enjoy it .
If we have a problem with the way a contest is judged stay on the focus of the contest , again not the trend or the person enteriing .
You know if you look around you will see that this hobby is thriving but guess what , not at the RC Club level , its guys flying planes all over the place , small helcopters , foamys , park flyers , ect is that because we are all too judgemental at the club ??? seriuosly open your mind , the industry and hobby is changeing its just fact and many of the changes are
good .
Do you know the best place to buy kits today and its realy sad ??? Estate sales or ebay from someone who picked them up at an estate sales , you know why ?? The poor guy
simply did not have the time to build every kit he accumlated , he ran out of time , like all of us

As far as Yellow Aircraft is concern , I understand your post and think your making sence and I also agree that your planes are kits , but someone will always argue depending on if they grow there own balsa , harvest the crop ect , remember someone will always one up you , Yelllow kits are first class examples if how far prefab excellance can come and help a good builder , build a master piece

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