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Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

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Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

Old 03-18-2004, 01:22 AM
  #1  
Skribnod
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Default Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

I have noticed since entering this hobby last June that a Arf is bassically not just a assembly project , but otherwise a" Fix what the manufacturer hasnt done right the first time". There has been very few "ARFS" that just need assembly to require flight , most need extra structure braceing , landing gear upgrades , Wheel pants and cowl stiffening , and many other mods. Sure you pay more for a ARF so shouldnt it come Almost Ready to Fly ? Should we have to upgrade or make "repairs" before even flying them? I thought that is why I am paying someone extra money for the "ARF" advantage. One simple question if you disagree with me...... If you had paid someone to build a kit for you and then you had to take that airplane home and reinforce it or modify it to make it acceptable wouldnt you be upset? Just my thoughts and opinions. BTW I have 27 airplanes now and have built 13 "ARF's" and 1 kit (patriot) over the winter so I have some experience but not even close to the older fliers and builders on RCuniverseso maybe I am wrong
Old 03-18-2004, 01:50 AM
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

You actually pay less for most ARF's than what it would cost to buy the kit and th e covering... then the glue they used and a lot of the hardware they toss in with it is "free."

The Fokker Dr1 pictured in my Avitar cost $250 as an ARF... to buy a kit the same scale would have cost $150... then 4 rolls of monoKote minimum to cover it. There is no way I could have built it for the cost of the ARF. And the ARF was so good... I didn't even have to paint the firewall for fuelproofing. I found ONE bad glue joint in the whole thing. (30 sec to fix that...)

The Goldberg Tiger 60 ARF I just competed a couple of weeks ago had NO problems in its construction. I did recoat the firewall for added fuelproofing (because I couldn't tell what paint they used.... not because of lack of paint.) And I added some covering on the root ribs. Again... I could not have bought the kit and the covering for the cost of the prebuilt and precovered aircraft.

The same pattern can be seen in a lot of other ARFs of sport and trainer models costing in the range of $100 to $300 for the aircraft. (no engine or radio)

The current state of the ARF industry is really VERY good. A HUGE improvement over what they were passing off 10 to 15 years ago. (and most of the ones from 20 years ago were junk compared to 10 yeas ago's standards...)
Old 03-18-2004, 02:18 AM
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Mettler1
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

Those of us that grew up building from plans using Ambroid glue and building kits with die crushed parts,crummy plastic cowls and NO hardware have no problem "improving" on the arf's we buy. We're just adding our own "personal" touch to an arf. It's a way to be a little more involved in our planes than just throwing one together and going flying. If I paid a lot more for an arf than I could build a kit for I would probably bi*ch about the quality. And I don't have to spend weeks and sometimes months in the basement just to build one airplane. Very few of the airplanes I "built" were perfect and I guess I don't expect perfect arfs. Anyway not at the price I'm paying for them!!!!
Old 03-18-2004, 02:37 AM
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

Certainly the ARF Industry has slowly got its act together. But it also pays to double check everything, same as if you are buying a 2nd hand airplane.

These models are built by people who have little knowledge or interest in R/C flying. Just told to put ".....parts A, B,C etc onto part D and glue like this..." and don't realise the importance of getting the joint glued "right."

As for the hardware, some kit manufacturers, such as World and ESM do put in excellent hardware while others, like VMAR and Phoenix ......., well lets say that they are "improving."
Old 03-18-2004, 08:09 AM
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Ed_Moorman
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

I'll have to agree that ARFs are actually cheaper than building a kit.

I think there are a couple of reasons we re-build ARFs. First, most of us tend to over power our planes and the added stress, vibration, higher g's and speed tends to cause failures above what the plane was tested for.

Second, many people buy a plane that is over their head or slightly beyond their capability. Granted, there are normally production glitches when any project, RC or otherwise first goes into full production and this is the cause of some of the failures we see. However, if someone on his second airplane, or even third, buys one of the very light weight, fun fly ARFs, or scale ARF, and ham fists it around the sky, dives at full power and bounces it down on the runway, he is probably going to see a failure.

Experienced fliers know the obvious failure points, landing gear, firewall, tail, and wanting to keep their plane for the long haul will do a small amount of reinforcing. At least it is prudent to check these areas to make sure you didn't get a plane built on a Monday morning by a worker with a hangover.

I also think you see more of this talked about here on RCU than there ever is in a club. Most of the guys in my club just put the plane together and fly. I check everything, but I don't do much except move servos and the battery to keep from adding lead. I'm just thankful I don't have to paint any more. Runs, orange peel, sanding and priming-I hated it. Dang, I fell in love with Monokote about a microsecond after it came out.
Old 03-18-2004, 08:23 AM
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

I ,and a few other guys in these threads, have been around a number of years more
than some of you and we have seen the crap they used to pass off as "ARFs".
Beleive me the ones we see today are superb compared to the junk we used to get.
The first ARF I ever saw was all plastic and you glued it together with shoe cement.
I agree we couldn't build a kit as cheaply as the ARFs , and it just makes good
sense to check all joints, etc.

tommy s
Old 03-18-2004, 08:28 AM
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MormonMike
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

You get a much better airplane if your willing to take the time to build it [the old fashioned way]. Sure , they take time to build and you do have to have a knowledge of the hobby but its YOU who puts it together, not some-body out of HO CHI MINH city who is barely awake. The effort that goes into your project is rewarding knowing that the finnished item was made by you and your own hands. It also takes the "H-9" factor out of a crash. A big problem with the younger generation is they are not willing to take the time to to build, so the art of building is being lost. You get what you pay for and you are old enough to make your own decisions. Decide what course you want to follow. Good luck ! MJS
Old 03-18-2004, 08:32 AM
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Scar
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

ORIGINAL: Skribnod

<<snip>>.... Sure you pay more for a ARF so shouldnt it come Almost Ready to Fly ? <<snip>>

<<snip>>... One simple question if you disagree with me...... If you had paid someone to build a kit for you and then you had to take that airplane home and reinforce it or modify it to make it acceptable wouldnt you be upset? ...<<snip>>
I think the previous responses have pointed this out, but I'll just mention the following.

For one, I don't think many ARFs cost more than the comparable kit and trimmings, so we're not on the same page on that point.

And with respect to the second snipped point, if I paid a builder, I would anticipate we would agree beforehand on what hardware to use, what to reinforce, and what to modify. More important, I would expect to pay considerably more than the cost of the materials for the labor of the builder.

I don't think anyone, even in this forum, will stand up and defend every ARF manufacturer's choice of hardware or construction record. Rather, when a specific manufacturer puts out a complete and well built ARF, that attracts attention here.

Good luck,
Dave Olson
Old 03-18-2004, 09:57 AM
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jbrundt
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

Here's my opinion, for what it's worth:

When you go the route of ARF's the saying 'caveat emptor' truly applies. ARF models run the gamut from complete junk to complete joy. Trying to find that perfect one is never easy. I do feel if you buy an ARF that you should expect some basic requirements of the plane. The first and foremost one is that the airframe is airworthy. By that I mean that it's properly built with adequate glue joints and able to take the normal stresses within it's expected flight envelope. If you buy an ARF that specifies its for 3D and aerobatics then it ought to be designed and constructed to withstand those stresses. As a buyer I should not have to 'beef' it up. I'm paying for that already. I expect sturdy surfaces to mount the servos and hardware. Hardwood where appropriate instead of flimsy balsa. I expect a solidly mounted firewall. I expect properly mounted and glued landing gear blocks (or retract mounts). I expect straight and true wings and fuselage. I expect all the things that make the airframe airworthy.

Now, what I expect and what I get are two different things.

With that said a lot of users/buyers go beyond the limit of what's to be expected of their model. When you hang a G-62 gas engine on a plane desingned for a 1.20 4-stroke and the plane breaks whose fault is it? Yours! You overpowered the model so expect to pay the consequences. I'm not going to get into a long winded dissertation of voiding the manufacturer's warranty and such because that subject has been beaten to death in other forums (as well as this one) but to suffice it to say if you try to make the plane do something it was never expected or intended to do then expect to suffer the risks you incurr.

So, what then should a buyer/user realistically expect? I think that with the exception of trainers all ARFs should come with no hardware. Once your out of the trainer stage you should have rudimentary knowledge of what is good aircraft hardware (or at least know where to go to find out). The biggest peeve ARF builders have with the purchases is the hardware. ARF reviews abound with statements like "I replaced the included hardware because it was substandard". You think the manufacturers would get the point by now. I know going into the deal that the hardware will be replaced. I also know that the manufacturer's choice of covering may leave something to be desired. Everyone has there prference to covering material so there's no way an ARF manufacturer can please everyone. I would hope they try to use quality covering materials but in the end you'll get what you pay for.

I expect the seller and manufacturer to stand behind their product. If you built and flew their ARF in good faith, using their supplied materials and used the recommended engine and the plane suffers a mechanical/structural failure then they should replace it. This however, is quite an open ended request. Put yourself into the place of the manufacturer; how do you know the buyer wasn't flying the plane outside of its intened envelope? How do you know they didn't use enough epoxy when installing the wing joiner? How do you know they were using the proper engine? How do you know they even have the skills to fly the plane they bought? In all actuality you don't. But you can't give a new plane to every person that calls in and says their plane crashed. So you have to do some basic investigation. And a truthful and honest buyer will help you out. That's why places like Hanger 9 and Great Planes ask you to send in the crash damaged plane. They can usually tell from the wreckage who's lying and who's being truthful. The manufacturer should be willing to meet you halfway in trying to resolve your issue. However, if you come off to them as intimidating, demanding, abusive, foul mouthed, name calling, product bashing then you should expect to receive nothing in return. remember, there's a right way and a wrong way when dealing with customer services issues. If you do do all the right things and the manufacturer blows you off then that's vendor to stay away from and tell everyone you know about them.

As for the gentleman that made the remark about getting a better airplane if you build it yourself; you may be right to some extent but not everyone in this hobby has time to build. And it's not an age thing. I used to build quite prolificaly. Balsa dust was flying around the house. Then I had kids.......... I don't have time to build anymore. I wish I did but the fact is I don't. I still have time to fly and flying is what I really want to do so I buy ARF's. I've even found ARF's a better value because of this. Not all ARF's are poorly constructed. My GP Ryan ST-M is a perfect example of this. I spent 5 years building a Sig Ryan STA. Talk about a box of wood! I bouth the GP Ryan and had it together and flying within a month. I spent less money on the GP ARF when everything was tallied up than I did on that Sig kit. I have a Sig Somethin' Extra ARF. I could not buy and build a kit for the same cost as I paid for the ARF. For me ARF's do represent a good value and I will continue to buy them even though I know how to build. Plus most of the people that assemble these are not lazy and they do want to build a quality product for an honest wage. (but we could debate all day about 3rd world econmics and labor)

For now when I buy an ARF I thouroghly check it out and fix what needs fixing. I look at it as my responsibility to having a good, airworthy airplane. I don't get mad about it and I don't *****. If I didn't want the extra work I would not have bought the plane to begin with. The way I figure it is that 80% of the hard part has been done. i can live with the extra 20% I need to do.

Jeff
Old 03-18-2004, 10:13 AM
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Skribnod
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

jbrundt , i agree with you 100% and I too expect to do a little extra work in the assembling process to give it a personal touch and extra piece of mind. There are some arfs out there that are truly a danger to yourself and others even though you followed all manuf. recomendations. I just wonder why these company's have not gone out of buisness yet because of poor quality and workmanship.
Old 03-18-2004, 10:17 AM
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

ORIGINAL: FHHuber

The current state of the ARF industry is really VERY good. A HUGE improvement over what they were passing off 10 to 15 years ago. (and most of the ones from 20 years ago were junk compared to 10 yeas ago's standards...)
I was around when ARF's arrived and its true they were junk and they were also lousy fliers.
I hope FHHUBER's post is read by many of those who expect an ARF to be of museum quality for cheap money. I think most of the complainers are fairly new to the hobby and have built few if any kits. Even if someone built a kit for me I'd probably still make modifications to suit my taste. ARF's save you a lot of time, effort, expense and they look good.
Take a look around your flying field, how many kit built models have you seen with an intricate 3 or 4-color covering job plus decals? Have you ever tried to do a covering job like that? Most people are not even willing to buy that many different colored rolls of covering material.
Over the years I've built from kits and plans and designed a few of my own and even assembled an old ARF. The ARF was so crappy I almost puked and the thought of it still bothers me today. I stayed away from ARF's for years. These days ARF's are built at the factory with the same materials and coverings we build kits with. I buy ARF's almost exclusively now. And yes, I still add some epoxy here and there.
The ARF market is very competitive and new and impressive models keep popping up.
One good quality one that impresses me is the KATANA. Its a 72-inch 4th scale 3d/IMAC class ARF for 1.60 to 1.80 size engines and costs only $199.95 complete with hardware, fiberglass cowl and wheel pants. And, its a spectacular flier. Can I beat that?
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Old 03-18-2004, 10:42 AM
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yard-dart
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

The first airplane I ever bought was a Herr 1/2A Mustang. It was a laser cut kit, and went together fairly easily, but it just took too damn long to build, even being a small airplane. I decided that ARF's were the planes for me. As far as quality, I have never had a problem out of any ARF that I've ever built, structure wise. Now, the covering jobs, and types of coverings, on some brands is nothing to brag about. Overall, I think these companies do a very good job at having these planes built as good as they are, and at lightning speed. There is no way possible that a person can buy a kit, all of the accessories, covering, etc.. and build a plane as cheap as you can buy an ARF. There is no way you can build a plane from a kit as quickly as you can build an ARF. O.K. O.K. I am hearing the yells come through the modem. I know that there is no way that you can get a better built plane than a kit built one. I agree 100%. I want everyone to take a look at the times. Everything is so fast-paced right now, nobody has the time to build. Well, let me rephrase that, they may have time to build but since they are taking up that free time, they now have no time to fly. So which one is it? Do you build, or do you fly? I think most of the men like me, who have young families, rather use th free time we have flying. I don't want to take up all of my free time building. With what free time I have now, if I used it to build planes, it would still take me months to get a plane totally finished. To hell with that! For all of you retired people, or people who have money time and money to throw away, I can understand it if you choose to build, YOU HAVE THE TIME. For all of us who don't have the time, or simply the ones who choose not to build, we love the idea of of having the option to buy ARF's. Sure, they're not quite as good in quality as what a good 'ole homebuilt is, but they fit our lifestyle. It is nothing to me to have to go in and put a little extra epoxy here and there to add extra strength(and weight), it only takes a matter of minutes, which is no big deal to me. I think, by now, everyone chatches my drift.

It is a fact that ARF's aren't built exactly as good as a homebuilt kit, common sense should get you that far. Try to build a kit for the same money you pay for an ARF, and in the same amount of time it takes to assemble an ARF. IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN! If you don't like the quality of an ARF, and you don't think you're getting the quality you pay for, BUILD A KIT. I'll be thinking about you, at home building your kit, when I'm at the field flying my ARF. In fact I'll probably be having that thought for about two months or so. Two months of building, or two months of flying? I know which one I'll be doing. FLYING! my not-quite-as-good-as-a-homebuilt ARF.

Deal with it!

John
Old 03-18-2004, 11:24 AM
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

I hope everyone does not get the wrong impression that i'm implying that all Arf's are bad but there are some out there that really are bad. I recently built a patriot kit from GP and I believe it came in under the cost of a patriot arf. I do not know because GP discontinued the patriot arf but after all is said and done the arf cost me a total of approximately (give or take $5) $155. GP kit...$82 , CA...$7 ,
3 rolls of monokote ....$40 , epoxy...$10 , spinner $4 , fuel tank $3.95 , Wheels $6 . I had left over CA ,Epoxy and monokote for the next project. The only problem was it took me a month to build it , but it was built airworthy. I do have another one I did buy used that was from a ARf and the quality is not even comparable. I wont go into specs but if I did have the time I would probably build my own all the time but i just cant , so I also depend on the arfs. Actually I think I have as many hours in the Corsair as I did with the patriot and im not kidding. The GSP corsair was a nightmare but I have built other ARF's that I swear by and will always buy their products. I just dont think a person should have to glue in supports and reinforce the airframe or even chop and rebuild part of the airplane to make it fly properly and safely , at least not after shelling out good money. Would you expect to fix the frame on new car before you drove it just because the manufacturer decide to cut corners? Its the same concept , these are ARF's to be assembled not built and the manufacturer should be responsible to have them made this way. I say its time some of these companys are made responsible for their products but some lay the blame on the rc pilot. Take a look at the Lancair from GP , look at all the threads with the wing failures. I have one in the box still and called Gp , they said they are not aware of the problem and have no reports of it yet. Figure that one out when they have replaced so many for the members of RCU.
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Old 03-18-2004, 12:11 PM
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yard-dart
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

Skribnod,

Nice planes! The bottom line is, these planes(ARF's) are assembly line products, just as vehicles we drive. But, these planes are made of wood and put together with glue, and you know that the vehicles we drive are not assembled in this way. So, this is not a very good comparison. Also, most if these planes are assembled overseas, by people earning little to nothing. I don't think I'd do a very good job either if I were getting paid so little, although it would be better than nothing at all. As you stated, some companies are a lot better than others, and I'm not going to start naming and making comparisons ( there are plenty of threads on here that make comparisons). I can honestly say that I've never received an ARF that I thought was unsafe right out of the box. When a person is assembling a plane, they can tell if a plane is built poorly, and I've never come across one. Sure, I've added a little epoxy here and there, but it was mainly because I'm one of the guys that likes to put a larger than reccomended engine on the plane. And, I am not one to complain if it yanks the firewall out. I have a GP Shoestring that is know for having some very weak gear. Yes, it is weak. I've dinked it up a tad, and had to reinforce that area, but overall, I have no complaints. The plane is well worth the money to me. I also have the GP Lancair. It is going on a year old now with many, many flights. Guess what! No wing failures! I think the whole Lancair wing failure issue is brought about for two reasons. One, because the builder didn't gob on the epoxy(they probably used 5 min. instead of 30 min) like I do. I literally have it ooze out when I push the two halves together. Two, this is a scale, passenger aircraft. It has a very long wing. It is not an aerobatic airplane. People are yanking on the elevator and the wing is snapping. It is all a matter of the plane not being flown in the scale manner it was intended. Build your Lancair and get it in the air, you're missing out!

You've got good ARF's and bad ones. Everyone should do their homework before buying to find out which is which. If a person buys a bad one, and then complains, odds are that they didn't ask around before buying, or they wouldn't have ended up with a box of crap. You can't put a price on the info you can gather here in RCU. All a person has to do is come on here and ask before buying anything related to Radio Control hobbies. Before the end of their session, they will know what's good and what isn't.

If I had the time, patience, and money, I know that I could build a kit that was of better quality than an ARF, but I don't have those things. I am happy with the ARF's I own/have owned and don't mind one bit having to add some glue here and there. To me, they are well worth the money.

John
Old 03-18-2004, 12:38 PM
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Robotech
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

While it's true that there have been some cra**y ARF's sold, the current crop is overall very good with minor alterations and modifications made. When I buy an ARF I usually put it up front by the checkout and then go through the shop picking up my favorite, tried and true hardware to install in it.

As far as comparing them to kit built planes it all depends on the builder. Some of the worst planes I've seen attempting to fly have been kit built.

A good comparison might be using examples like the GP SS40 or Goldberg Tiger 2. Take a close look at the two ARF's side by side with one that's been kit built. Assuming each was built/assembled strictly according to the directions I don't believe you could call the kit built plane superior to the ARF.
Old 03-18-2004, 12:50 PM
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P-51B
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

ORIGINAL: yard-dart

Skribnod,

Nice planes! The bottom line is, these planes(ARF's) are assembly line products, just as vehicles we drive. But, these planes are made of wood and put together with glue, and you know that the vehicles we drive are not assembled in this way. So, this is not a very good comparison.
Actually, it is a very good comparison. Both are assembly line products sold as a product. What each is made of makes no difference. Corvettes have fiberglass bodies...so do composite-arf.com aircraft.

Also, most if these planes are assembled overseas, by people earning little to nothing. I don't think I'd do a very good job either if I were getting paid so little, although it would be better than nothing at all.
This is irrelevent, and I am sorry you wouldn't perform a job to the best of your abilities that you were being paid to do for the price you agreed upon.
Old 03-18-2004, 01:16 PM
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

[quote]ORIGINAL: yard-dart
Also, most if these planes are assembled overseas, by people earning little to nothing. I don't think I'd do a very good job either if I were getting paid so little, although it would be better than nothing at all.
ORIGINAL: P-51B
This is irrelevent, and I am sorry you wouldn't perform a job to the best of your abilities that you were being paid to do for the price you agreed upon.

P-51B, you are correct, it's not relevent, not only that, it's wrong. You can't base pay scales from other countries on whats made here.
Old 03-18-2004, 01:18 PM
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

P-51B,

Comparing the assembly of a $100-$200.00, 5-10 .lb, wooden/fiberglass R/C aircraft to a $15-$40K motor passenger vehicle is no comparison. If you think so, you've got problems.

If you think I'd take pride in what those people in Asia make ($), you're really nuts! What those people make is their problem, not mine. I know that I couldn't concentrate on my job knowing that I was making what probably ends up being .50$ an hour. That's probably how a lot of the assembly flaws come about, assembly attitude. So, it's very relivant.
Old 03-18-2004, 01:51 PM
  #19  
P-51B
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

ORIGINAL: yard-dart

P-51B,

Comparing the assembly of a $100-$200.00, 5-10 .lb, wooden/fiberglass R/C aircraft to a $15-$40K motor passenger vehicle is no comparison. If you think so, you've got problems.

If you think I'd take pride in what those people in Asia make ($), you're really nuts! What those people make is their problem, not mine. I know that I couldn't concentrate on my job knowing that I was making what probably ends up being .50$ an hour. That's probably how a lot of the assembly flaws come about, assembly attitude. So, it's very relivant.

I guess I must have problems, because the way I see it; if I pay $100-200 for a product that is advertised in a certain fashion or I pay $15-$40K for a vehicle that is advertised in a certain fashion....I EXPECT THAT BOTH PRODUCTS PERFORM IN THE ADVERTISED FASHION.
Old 03-18-2004, 02:01 PM
  #20  
Skribnod
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

Thanks Yard Dart . I guess the best possible thing we can do is invest a little extra time and money into the model after we purchase it to make it airworthy. Also make others aware of the "bad" areas or manufacturers and hlep out our hobby the best we can. I just get a little disturbed when I fix something I read on RCU and then find out that another airplane needs fixing also ,then another one and so on. I have been building all winter long (14 arfs) and have been waiting for the weather to clear so I can fly all summer. Now I have to go back and fix my Shoestring (beef up landing gear) before this weekend so I can finally fly it. I also have a tiger moth that may need reinforcing also before its flight. Guess maybe it's a "cabin fever" type thing and getting bogged down by the quality of some manufacturers. If anyone knows of a way to make the GSP Corsair flaps work properly without having to cut servo holes in the wings and mount more servos please send info. Thanks
Old 03-18-2004, 06:01 PM
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

FWIW, Skribnod, I agree with you.

Yeah, ARFs need work, sometimes beefing up, etc., etc. but when you have to re-engineer the model, then you've wasted your money; unless you are into challenges, and that's what true kits are for, eh?.

I just finished a Goldberg Matrix that had several major issues. I could have built and finished a Somethin' Extra kit in the time I spent working on this "ARF"; and would have had a known quality when it was done.

Who knows, the airplane may fly just fine. But instead of eagerly anticipating the first flight (as one should feel with a new project completed), I'm really rather ho-hum about the model. I really don't care one way or the other HOW it flies. Now, before someone jumps on that, yes, I know that is a personal attitude problem.

But the point is this hobby is supposed to be enjoyable. I spent a considerable sum of money expecting a product that would go together with a minimum of fuss and bother. Instead I got major grief. I THINK I was able to properly deal with the problems. But the model caused me enough aggravation that, even if it does fly well, I'll still feel cheated.

Some days you get chicken; some days you get feathers.[&o]


.
.
Old 03-19-2004, 01:01 AM
  #22  
Skribnod
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

How can we get the companies to start listening to us and start making a better product? Hey what if they were to offer a short kit in every model? Then we could add the parts we want and not get charged for the cheesy ones that sometimes come with a "ARF". Usually the first thing to get tossed is the plastic clasps,control horns, (sometimes pushrods),landing gear and tail wheel assembly. Someitmes even the servo tray is replaced by a nice futaba one. Then wheel pants and cowl get extra glass , fuse gets fuelproofed and finally the wing root gets glassed. Has been keeping my models looking better for a while at least.These are just the standard extras I include in the purchase price. oops almost forgot those really cool plastic safety clips that are a pain to get over the controll rods on the servo horn. LOL
Old 03-19-2004, 09:26 AM
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

How can we get the companies to start listening to us and start making a better product?

That's easy, quit buying their crappy product.

We, the RC community have told these companies that we want cheap, poor quality planes. How have we told them that? We told them that because that is what we are buying by the thousands.

When we as an RC community quit buying these cheap ARF's, that's when they will quit making them.
When most of us will start demanding quality and spend more money for a quality plane, that's when we will get quality planes.


Jim
Old 03-19-2004, 10:20 AM
  #24  
yard-dart
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

You know guys, it's really not that big of a deal. Look at what we're buying, planes that are thrown together very quickly. They are made so that we have to spend little time assembling them. When products are thrown together that fast, they are going to carry flaws. I am willing to buy these products simply because they save me time, time which is more valuble to me than money. The quality isn't going to improve much more than it is now, and it's going to be very hard for the manufacturer to come off of the price. So what do we do? Deal with it! Like I said before, it's no big deal for me to spend a total of 30 extra minutes applying epoxy here and there to strengthen what the factory slipped up on. They're doing me a favor for putting 75% of the plane together. Sure, we can ***** and moan, but what will that get us? A more expensive plane, that's what. I'd rather apply $5.00 worth of epoxy to strengthen something the company missed rather than pay an additional $50.00 for the same kit when all the company is going to do is go out and tell the workers to tighten up. That's right, you're going to end up paying extra money for the company correcting what was in reality their mistake. They'll call it paying for a "design improvement". Yeah right!



Fellas, you can complain all you want. It may get better, and it may not. If it does, you can bet that the company is going to charge you a hell of a lot more for the impovement than what it's worth, which in all reality is not worth it to me. I'd rather fix the minor flaw myself. I think the quality of the ARF's we buy today are fantastic, the major brands anyway. For those of you that disagree, simply SHUT UP AND STOP BUYING THEM! BUILD YOUR OWN FROM A KIT! At least that way when the plane starts falling apart, we wont hear you on here crying like a little girl, complaining about the quality of an ARF. If you think you can build a better ARF at the same cost, open up your own damn plant in your back yard so that yoiu can oversee operations personally for quality purposes. See what happens! You'll lose your ass!

It's time people step back and realize that they're getting spoiled. You simply can't get much better of a product for the chump change we're paying. And yes, it's chump change compared to other hobbies.

Skribnod, this is not directed at you, but it is directed at some of these other clowns with attitudes who insist that they get a perfect product every time. Nothing is perfect, not for the price we're paying now. I simply don't think a product can get much better for the price.
Old 03-19-2004, 10:42 AM
  #25  
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Default RE: Do we buy Arfs so we can rebuilld them befoe we fly them?

ARFS should come with warning lables then! DONOT over power no high speed dives never fly over 30 MPH no rolls or loops or this product could have structual failure. WARNING WARNING


LONNIE

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