ShempHoward

My Feedback: (3)

At the field today helping out a friend get his H9 Edge with an OS 160FX ready for its maiden flight. Two radio checks - a ok. Engine running fine on the vertical with no tendency to leanout (slimline pitts). Engine had approx 1 1/2 gallons of 5% Omega thru it so it was dialed in. The owner had balanced the plane at 4 5/8" from the leading edge which was 1/8th inch behind the forward end of the CG which starts at 4 1/2" per the manual.

He takes off and gets 1 1/2 mistakes high and starts to trim it out - everything seems fine except there is a little shimmy in the rudder
that he claims to see - I can't see it. He then slows it down to check the stall characteristics and then it snaps without warning and spins into the ground without responding to control input. I am wondering whats up with this?? The last magazine review I read on this plane (plus Hangar 9's advertising) indicated this plane just mushes ahead without dropping a wing tip when checking the stall. Is there something he (we) missed in all this? Is the CG info correct in the instructions for this plane?
Anyone else had this same experience?

planelazy

Hi .I have a friend that has one with a Moki 2.1 in it and i have seen his land at a crawl. I don't know specifics like c.g. on his but i can find out if you like .Tim Karrer. Columbus Ohio.

JBH

My Feedback: (1)

I used to fly mine with Moki 2.10 with the CG back at 6".

Hard to say what happened... it sounds like the plane was stalled and spun in. But, it might have looked and been much different than it sounds.

planelazy

Hi joe.It's hard to say,it all happen's so fast.So here is my war story.I had a friend build an 84" Fleet bipe last winter.On the first flight this last year iflew it.It had a Saito five clyinder radial in it with a new J.R.10x.Well that thing did the best take off i had ever done and that is the last time i had control.It did so many snaps and gyrations that i never would have figured it out until i sent the radio back because some unusual things were happening.Turned out to be a bad solder joint in the rf module.That was a real bummer but at least i found out what happened and you know that usually doesn't happen.Would like to be in Ca right now as the Ohio weather is not to great.Tim.

TailTwister

My Feedback: (1)

Battery Failure? Raido hit? This doesn't really sound like an airframe issue.

SINYFLY

Same thing happened to my H9 Cap on my Maiden Flight. I was in my final turn to land and it snapped, went into a spin into the ground.

I have come up with two theories about what happened. First, I think my engine died before I banked into the turn. I could not recover using throttle. Second, because it was slowing down and I was in a bank using elevator to maintain altitude, it must have stalled the wing causing the snap.

From what I have heard, these planes will not snap or tip stall when going slow with wings level. That is why they say it is so easy to land the Edge and the Cap. However, when you are in a bank...going slow the tendancy to tip stall increases if you apply elevator to maintain altitude.

So my question is, was your friend in level flight or was he turning?

Phil

DGrant

My Feedback: (4)

Send that radio/reciever in! I had the same thing happen, I was just locked out, with no response whatsoever. I sent in, and it was a "filter" in receiver. Hard to tell if it's same situation, in that, did he have response all the way to ground? Power?
My first Extra230 spun all the way in though, sounding similar to what your friend had. It was a beautiful flying plane too.
Radio was operating at crash site also, and I almost put it in another plane, glad I didn't. After service, it seems AOK, well over a year now.


Sorry to here these stories, but thanks for sharing, it may help someone else.

JBH

My Feedback: (1)

Yup... unfortunately I've witnessed what Phil is talking about and experienced what Dale is talking about. We're talking pilot error for one and equipment failure for the other.

I have on video my friend experiencing what Phil is talking about. It really struck a cord because it was with the H9 Edge-540. It was the biggest plane he'd flown and although a good pilot I think the size intimidated him at first. He brought it around for final and had it going a little too slow and at way too steep of a turn (almost knife edge). This was around 30' up... he stalled and spun in immediately. This was on the maiden... not cool.

I also had two planes spin in... one a H9 Edge-540, as well. I'm pretty sure that one was due to the older rev of Hitec Digital servos I had in it. The plane was great for around 20-30 flights... then my friend Mickey flew it and said it needed more throw for TR'n. The travel in the radio was set at 100% for all servos. He maxed that to 150%. I then flew the plane, got up high, flipped to high rates, went into a turn... the ailerons locked... I leaned the sticks hard the other way... the plane paused and then started spinning the other way and then locked... I leaned the sticks the opposite way again... the plane hesitated and then locked that way, too. As I said I was up pretty high... so the whole process of balling it up into the ground took an agonizingly long time.

The other spin in type failure was on a RC America Giles-202. That was simple... on the maiden the aileron hardpoint popped out of the foam. That aileron can clearly be seen in the video slammed like 75 degrees with the other aileron being neutral. I didn't have the skills at the time to save that one. I daydream about what I might have been able to do now... basically I'd of had to TR it to the ground and harrier land. The plane wasn't really setup for that... so I probably would have had the same results even today. :-)

Sometimes you figure out what happened... sometimes you don't. I prefer it when I figure it out.

And then, of course, there are the one, two, maybe three<g> planes I've flown into the ground all on my own. But, let's don't talk about that. :-)

ShempHoward

My Feedback: (3)

My friend is currently analyzing the video his wife took of the whole flight so perhaps he will figure out just what happened.

There is more irony to this story as just a week ago he lost
an H9 Cp 232 $200 1/4 scale bargain nearly the same way coming out of a split S on flight #3 in the same part of the field he now refers to as the "Bermuda Triangle" only the plane was a total wreck where as only the front 1/4 of the edge was wiped out yesterday. It rebuildable but he sees a new fuse in his future.

philjay82274

My Feedback: (3)

If it was the same part of the field with the same radio it sounds like interference. I had this happen to me once. I was flying and everytime I came through the far left corner of the field I would get a little bump on the ailerons causing the plane to just twitch to the left. So, I had to push it and try this a couple more times just to try and figure this out. One time too many and the plane went into a spin all the way into the ground. This cost me a 1/3 Extra 330. Anyway, after talking to Futaba, they told me that a common thing when you get interference or a loss of signal is that all the channels lock to full deflection. You can check this on some radios by turning on your receiver and transmitter and then shut of the transmitter. You may see all the surfaces bang over to full deflection. After having the radio serviced, sure enough, there were bad filters. Just a thought. Phil

JBH

My Feedback: (1)

I had a streak of four planes last fall... three went in on failures very quickly and the other I stuffed. Four for four in very short order (like a month). It took alot to get up the energy to back into the game. Even then I flew very nervously for awhile. Always just waiting for a failure. Not a good place to be at.

Weldo J Melvin

ShempHoward,

I think I have some idea what your friend was feeling when he, and you, watched helplessly as his plane went in. I had the same thing happen to me last week with my World Models Giant Scale Miss America. Mine was deadstick and turning back toward the runway when the wing dropped and it spun to the ground.

Unfortunately there is nothing in the instruction manual regarding the deadstick characteristics of my airplane, so I had no idea that this might happen. If I had I would have taken it straight out into the weeds and taken my chances. I would not have tried to turn it back to the runway.

Anyway, I am sorry to here of his loss. Experience can sometimes be a dish served cold...

Weldo

philjay82274

My Feedback: (3)

One thing to keep in mind. A Mustang or any other warbird has a very high wing loading. Any plane with a high wing loading will stall at a higher speed than a plane with a light wing loading. Any time you try make changes in the flight path i.e. make control changes, at stall speed or just above stall speed, the plane will usually react violently. This is a wing stall. This is one of two ways a plane can violently snap when in a stall. The other way is the case of the old CAP 21 design. These were notorious for snapping. The reason for these was the stab placement. The stab was in such a place that when you would flare it out, the stab would enter the turbulent air coming off the wing and this would couse the stab to "stop flying". This was a stab stall. The newer CAP designs such as the 232 fly much better at slower speeds and higher angles of attack because the design keeps the stab out of the turbulent air. Just my $0.02. Phil

JBH

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Same goes for the H9 Cessna... you don't want to try to do anything much when those deadstick either.

Johng

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Surprising about the Cessna. I have the Top Flight one that will glide forever without any flaps. No bad habits with the wing, except that you need at least 45 deg of flaps to get the thing down without floating the length of the runway.

maverick

My Feedback: (12)

Shemp,

Which part of the field are we talking about? Wasn't close to where I lost my Mustang was it?

Timbersnake

Howdy all....Great thread...I posted what turns out to be a very similiar thread on the beginners board...(thought that was a better place for it, but it turns out maybe these stalls happen to intermediate guys too!)...it's called "Nasty Stall recovery" or somesuch...there are some interesting posts in there.
One quick story...Last 4th of July our club was doing a show at our local lake. One of our members showed up with a 1/3 scale Husky on Floats. What a beautiful plane...it looks a lot like a cub...and was pro built. It is still the best scale example I have seen. Anyway...our best pilot takes to the air with the Husky on the maiden flight and does some real conservative buzzing around, getting it trimmed in. Everything looked great and he decided to land, fuel it, and pass it off to the owner. He cut the throttle on the downwind leg just as he started banking on the base turn. In the middle of the base turn at about 75 feet, the Huskey just snapped and spun into the lake. Very minimal damage, but the plane was finished for the day.
It seems like there may be some problems making the change from small (40-90 sized) airplanes to big (1.20+) birds. Our pilot made the remark that "the speed looked good" when he was making the base turn. Well, it obviously wasn't...and the problem, IMHO, is perception. Because of the size of the airplane, the pilot, being accustomed to flying smaller planes, perceived the Huksy to be flying well above it's stall threshold. I've yet to fly anything bigger than a 90 sized plane, but I've got a H9 1/4 CAP232 in the basement that is slowly taking shape. So...maybe I'm full of it! But I'm hoping these posts might save me or someone else from making a similar mistake.
Good luck all and happy flying.
TM

JBH

My Feedback: (1)

I've kinda worried/worry that this isn't the right forum... but I guess we all can relate to the loss of a plane.

F16FxR4real

My Feedback: (2)

thanks for bringing up something I've hard a HARD time trying to explain to anyone. The aerodynamic rule of the horizontal stab stopping its authority once the main wing has created that "void" and one more thing noone has brought up that I think is very important, lateral balance. A lot of people have planes that stall one way or the other but I've found that once laterally balanced, stall close to straight ahead.

ShempHoward

My Feedback: (3)

Maverick: It was the same area where your P51 snapped in. Ironic isn't it?? Thats 3 planes
in the same area in the past few weeks?? Now make that 4 planes as Art's Extra went down
in the same area last week.

ehfleming

My Feedback: (5)

I found you must be very carefull when turning base with this plane. You must be conscious of where the wind is coming from. If there is the slightest cross wind blowing into your face - WATCH OUT. Keep your speed up or you will snap. This seems to be a typical characteristic for the H9 1/4 Cap. I've flown it so slow at times it seemed to have stopped in mid air, and hang forever. Then there were times I thought I was "cruising" 1/3 throttle and it would tumble and auger without warning. Each time, I had turned down wind, too slow air speed, my speed went to near 0 and it would fall out of the sky. Each time it was pilot error. Especially once you know what it might do in this situation, and you let it happen, anyway. This proved to be its ultimate demise. Although its ground speed was decent when I turned base, it gave a couple of jerky shudders and spun in. Make no mistake, I think this is a great flying plane. This is just one of its fight characteristics, and not a very forgiving one. Prior instances required a lot of altitude to recover. The last instance caught me flat-footed in the worst possible position.

tigerpaw

Not in California

wildthng

Our field had the same problem on planes that were around channel 30(32 was the worst)In our south west corner they kept takeing momentary hits.Friend of mine has a small house there and flys full scale and plays in a band with some hi-power equipment.When he stops practicing no more hits.Don't know anything obout electronics but i know not to fly over there with any of my channel 32 planes.No effect on ch 16.wierd but true.

tigerpaw

wildthing;

Still sounds like "THE BERMUDA TRIANGLE", in Wisconsin to me. But you may have something there. I've got a teenager band next door. When I was on internet with phone modem, I would occasionally get ZAPPED when on line. Now, with cable modem, no more ZAPPIN'. I don't know nuttin' 'bout frequency Zappin', but is questionable.

wildthng

I lost 2 new planes on maiden flight this year.one was an h9 cap and it was my falt.took off smoothly,started to climb out,lost elevater,hit a tree so hard it bent a pushrod on the150 saito.Other was a se i built after chrismas,took off flying around at half throtle did a roll,heard a loud pop at about 5 mistakes high.Went into a slow spin and refused to do anything except chop throttle.Not much left after it hit the ice,never could find out what caused it.I almost needed a shink after the 2cd one i was so upset.