Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

Riddle me this... How is it that I can buy a 70" span relatively scale warbird that's atleast 80% prebuilt for 150 bucks that will look the part both on the ground and in the air BUT when it comes time to buy an engine for said warbird (or any plane for that matter) I end up paying upwards of twice what I paid for the plane itself?? This ofcourse is if you want a nice 4-stroke that'll sound good and fit nicely in the cowl... (I realize 2 strokes are still relatively cheap) This rails against me... Now, I'm no teenager, I have a good job (8 years navy) and so does my wife, and I realize that these little engines are marvels of engineering prowess and tons of R&D but so are the airframes right? I mean I realize you gotta pay if you wanna play but for my 70" warbird (GSP Hellcat) if I want a 1.20 sized 4 stroke I'm going to have to pay double what I paid for the airframe... this to me seems so asenine... At this point I'm ready to toss up the perverbial hands and just put a two stroke on it's side and cut a hole in the cowl... No offense but you guys that say "it's a crime to put a 2 stroke in a warbird" must be like chiefs or officers or something LOL because those things are freaking expensive and there just ain't no other way to put it... it's going to take the rest of my re-enlistment bonus just to get this Hellcat in the air if i want a sweet sounding 4-stroke...
Anyway.. as I said.. I realize that these little engines are amazing pieces of engineering design and application but COME ON O.S., SAITO, and jeez you guys over at YS must make yours out of gold or something but could you come down on your prices by like 50% so fellers like me can afford to use them? Okay.. I'll settle for 25%... just hook us up...
Okay.. i'll stop for now and apologize... just felt the need to rant after shopping for engines for my hellcat (which should arrive this week). i hope I didn't bother you guys too much, i really enjoy all the folks on here and if you've read this far you must really be bored LOL
This officially ends my first RCU whine session... call the waaaambulance...
Thanks
Casey

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

Ok, here's a solution for you: all of the hobby shops, mail-order places, and manufacturers can raise the prices of all airframes to three times what they are currently, that way the engine will be the cheapest part. How's that? :eek: Count your blessings that the plane is inexpensive in comparison.

Lachlan

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

whoa whoa whoa... before this even gets close to getting out of hand... it was meant to be more of an observation and an attempt of mine to make light of my situation... not sure if above post was a flame (never been flamed before) but it sure wasn't the "we feel your pain bro" that I was kind of expecting LOL...

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

The same can be said for retracts.

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

Mr. Dick T. a truer statement cannot be made...


and.....if your still reading.. noticed you're from Visalia.. me too.... I fly in Tulare with the Condors... wonder if i've met you...

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

Your point is well taken, but I think the prices are probally based on demand. They Have it...............You want it..................and there is basically only a few manufacturers competing in the market compared to Airplane Manufactures who have much more price competition. YS, Saito, O.S, Magnum, and a couple others like Thunder Tiger and RCv are pretty much the Top 4 strokes right now in my opinion. I do believe you will see prices come down some over the next couple years as lower priced 4 stroke Engines like Magnum, and Thunder Tiger gain a good foothold in the market as being a good dependable alternative to Saito or YS for dependabillity, even though the power cravers will always lean towards Y.S and Saito. In the Plane market there are several different manufacturers who make the same Plane, but in the 4 stroke engine market most of the 4 strokes produced each have there own little individual differences that make them stand aprt from other manufactures. In my opinion, experience, and from alot I have read from peoples experience it basically breaks down like this. YS=Super Power, Saito=Awesome Sound, and good Power,O.S=Makes great engines, but the Popular O.S Name tends to keep the prices up, Magnum=Great Price, and descent power, and basically a copycat engine of the O.S, but at a lower price.

The only real short term competition I see right now is between O.S and Magnum, and I can't see O.S wanting to drop down to Magnums level of price anytime soon. O.S has made a good name for itself, and I would bet that it still sells its share of 4 strokes due to its name recognition, and not to mention that they do make a good engine. Y.S and Saito are kind of in a world of there own, and each has its own dedicated followers who don't mind paying the high price for all that power! The Magnum Engines are lower priced, are very dependable, but do not quite have the oomph like Y.S or even Saito.

So, if you are building a scale warbird, and you wanna save a few bucks on a good dependable 4 stroke, and you are not looking for the most powerful engine in its class, but want something that runs good and sounds good, I personally would have to look good and hard at the Magnum 120 for $249. That may still sound like alot of money, but that is probally the best Price on a good quallity engine that size.

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

Welcome to Model Aviation! :D Over the years, I have learn that if your in a hurry, your going to pay dearly. Remember this. "The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient!" I dont know what the heck that is suppose to mean. Just look around for good deals. usually the plane is the cheapest part of the whole enchilada.

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

I fly Moki 1.80's 2.10 in all of my warbirds, there great, I have 4 strokes in some planes to but there nothing wrong with a 2 stroke in a warbird. Hot planes, hot engines? The right muffler they sound great. But it all cost more then our wifes would like it too. I miss match dallor for dallor at the Craft store.

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

i'm sure you won't mind if the navy paid three times more for the rolls royce engine in your harrier :-)

seriously though, it's completely different. planes are very labor intensive and are only cheap because they are made in low cost labor places. try to get your hobby shop owner to make you a kit and i'm sure that would be three times more than any 70 class four stroke. even at minimum wage, you would be looking at thousand easy to build a kit to ARF level of completion. here in taiwan, where labor ain't so cheap no more, you need to pay someone $60 dollars to put a basic ARF together!!! as jeepindog said, you should just be happy that you can get them for cheaper.

engines, on the other hand, are capital intensive. So it doens't matter as much where it's built and that's why Magnum engines aren't so much different in price than O.S. engines.

lastly, think about what it would cost you to build either. i'm sure with a little arts and crafts, we can all build a plane from scratch. try building an engine from scratch.

another analogy is the computer.... you can get a case for less than a $100 but all in that puppies gonna cost you $1000+. ever try making a CPU? lol

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

here is my complaint, but acceptable. I was going to get a os 50 and the motor was 150.00 and a pitts muffler was 45.00 for a total of 195.00, or the new saito 82 for 50.00 more, get more power and lighter . HHHMMMMM kind of a no brainer here. How much more for the pits muffler for your war bird, take that into consideration also.

Darin

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

bn120 - i don't know what no brainer you're referring to. the O.S. 50 SX is rated at 1.8 hp against the 1.5hp of the 82. so by sheer power (not useability because that is dependent on the application) the O.S. is stronger.

and with a weight of 13.76oz w/o muffler, the O.S. would be around the same weight as the 82. plus the saito is $50 more expensive withOUT pitts muffler.

so while none of the specifications leans toward O.S. as the no brainer. i would pick the saito. why? the rumble of the fourstroke, the large diameter props you can spin and the torque are all about heart, not about the brain :D

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

Hey great post , let me share my opinion with you , for years as I stood on the sign line of RC i watched many RCs swear about OS max , "the best ", nothing else around , only buy Os ect ect ect . So as a newbe I bought OS . Great engines with relatively no problem .
Then one day I met a great local hobby shop owner who traveled overseas and knew where the engines are made . We had a discussion about engines . Found out magnum was made by an X os person , .So I tried one , saved about $100 bucks and the rest was history .
I now use OS, Magnum, and ready ...... super tiger .You can find great deals if you look and with proper care , oil ect they all run great .Yes I have had RCs snobs approach me and say "I will give $25 for that engine , funny considering I am a very nice person with an even tempermant I just laught . The same goes for servos , only used futaba , then tried Hitec , competition is great and quality is better . Now dont get me wrong i think there is the high end in every field but when I looked into it I found in 4 cycles Y&S is the very high end but with research also found they need extreme care in set up and tweeking. Well I am in this hobby for fun , I dont have time to tweek, and maintaining .So on this subject put your hard hat on , people take it so serious , let them , lol , put your money in the bank and learn what works from variuos opinions and not just one and you will be very happy in the end .

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

heres how to put it: watbirds are expensive.

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

So I commited a crime when I put an OS.91 FX w/Pitts muffler in my 70"wingspan GSP Spitfire ?
It's a warbird. And it flys great with the 2-stroke. Sounds good too. Now I wouldn't want the same engine in my VF-Edge540. I need the torque and slow speed power to hang on the prop, etc. The Spit doesn't fly the same way. Try hovering with a P-51 or BF109 sometime. LOL,,,, can be done,,, but it's not pretty ?
I don't build planes because of what they may or may not sound or look like. I build them to fly. And if somebody can see the hole in my cowl when I make a high speed pass in my Spit.......they got some darn good eyes . Better than mine that's for sure.

(Unless of course your going to compete in the NATTS Scale Model Series.)

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

CaseyH46, What's your rating ?....... "Airdale", "Deck-Ape", "Snipe" ? Are you a "Brown-Shoe", "Black-Shoe"?....... Let's ascertain what department your in and then we'll be able to communicate the proper "ettequette". If your in "Weapons dept.", "G" division, You have my undevided attention. MM:D

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

Go with a Super Tiger 2300-- $150

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

This is pretty easy... The warbird is build using maybe $5000 worth of jigs and fixtures. It takes about 100 hours to make with Chinese labour at about $0.50/hour.

The engines are made using about $10,000 of dedicated casting tooling, and need to be finish machined on a CNC machine costing about $1,000,000.... Simple economics.

Airframes are labour intensive, and you're buying from a low labour cost country. The engines are made on sophisticated machinery that costs a lot of money.

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

"So it doens't matter as much where it's built and that's why Magnum engines aren't so much different in price than O.S. engines. "

Uh FORESTROKE...Magnum 70 4 stroke=149.00.....OS 70 4 stroke=215.00...not much different in price?..try 30% or more.
Magnum .46XLS=74.00 AND the OS .46=115.00...BIG difference again!
I buy Magnum..for the value and the consistant run.
Magnum .91 and .46 and 70 <----------------own all 3 and love all of them

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

MormonMike

I'm an airdale... spent time on the Eisenhower and the Carl Vinson... currently in Lemoore CA... I'm an "I" level AT2 and have been working on F-18 RADAR for my whole career... sort of a sad existence but hey.. I have AC in the summer and (sort of) heat in the winter... flight decks are fun for awhile but get old real fast... my cousin on the Truman is an ordie with the "A" gang.. so does that put me in better graces??? :)

And thanks for all the replies... this is one topic I havent seen discussed much and it's cool to see all the opinions.....

Casey

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

It IS a crime to put a 2-stroke in a warbird...

But it's a bigger crime to spend more money on your hobby than you can afford.

When we say it's a crime, that's just a little good-natured ribbing. Do not EVER spend more money than you can afford on ANYTHING!

PS, don't forget to check out the local swap meets and auctions for good deals!

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

p-40luvr - "relative" is the key word, my friend. while O.S. engines made in japan may be 30% more than Magnum engines made in China, i guarantee you that ARFs made in japan (are they any?) would be 10 times more expensive than those made in China. so the point is that while hobbyist have been enjoying decreasing ARF prices due to lower labor costs, they just haven't been able to enjoy the same savings in engines. so casey, should not be upset at the high cost of engines but rather be happy with the low cost of ARFs.

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

Minnflyer - there are three exceptions whereby the offender can live:

1. it is part of a duct fan system. i don't think i've ever seen a fourstroke duct fan :D
2. it is a gasser.... as far as i know all gassers are two stroke engines
3. it is 1/2A

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

Caseyh46......I fly with the Condors also so we may have met although I haven't flown much in the past year due to business commitments and family illness.

I have a GP Ryan STA, Hangar 9 Sukhoi. Probably see you at our swap meet in April.

RE: Excuse me while I complain for a moment
 

CaseyH46, Ya, we'll "cut you some slack" . I understand what your saying. This non-sense has gotten way out of hand. 52 plus RC planes, countless thousands of dollars later, indecisiveness, the " complaining ", not to mention all the cash spent on the wife to keep her appeased for your hobby. I'll listen to you. Sound off. Seeya, MM:(