RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

FWIW, my latest innovation for weight saving is cutting my own phenolic control horns for ailerons & tailfeathers. Phenolic sheet from Aircraft Spruce, inexpensive & versatile. I used to favor the Rocket City style horns, or home-made versions thereof, using 6-32 threaded rod. Then on one plane that I had balanced without the horns installed, I re-balanced with the horns and was confronted with a very significant change in CG because of the little bits of steel in the tail. A gram of excess in the tail means 3 grams of counterbalance in the nose. Weight saving needs to focus on the tail for special emphasis.

But as you say, with gasser up front, you may need a little something in the tail to balance. So now you have to think about shortening the nose or moving the wing forward. This is where the ARF concept begins to run out of steam. It's a lot easier to do radical weight reduction on a kit than an ARF. I hate to be tedious, but I say again the 1.60FX looks to me like a good way out of all this.

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

If you are thinking of OS 1.6 FX-FI it has good power but weights 33.3 oz (plus muffler) plus fuel + EC-2 CU plus bigger main battery (to power the fuel injection). OS doesn't say it, but you will end up with much more weight than with Saito 180.

Talking about OS 1.6 FX it weights 32.6oz plus muffler plus fuel. You see, the engine weights the same as Saito 180 but 4-stoke has only 2oz muffler, 2-stroke is 6 oz (as I remember right) or 8 if you take Pits style.

Other than that I just don't like big 2-stroke glow for 3D. Without a pump is so difficult to tune them right. They are so sensitive to everything. I don't know OS 1.6 FX but I had OS BGX and I just got tired of tweaking it all the time.

I looked at all (I think) possible engines and I didn't find any engine, that will run this plane with less than 3 lb (including fuel). It doesn't metter if it is 2-stroke glow, 4-stroke glow or 2-stroke gas (I don't even think about 4-stroke gas:)). The only favor of 2-stroke glow is the price. But then ST 2300 is better deal:D

RysiuM

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

Oh no, not the fuel-injected. That's for fatter wallets than mine. I understand combustion mode preferences, so I will stop harping on the big two-strokes. I agree they do tune better with pumps, but a $30 Perry is not too costly. Well, I think that about runs me out of suggestions. You'll have to choose between the gasser and the four-stroke. We will watch this thread with interest, and hope you get the combination you will be happy with.

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

Thank you, I will post all new findings here. I just talk to my buddy (far more experienced than I am) and he commented all my servo choice. For violent 3D I need to calculate the servo load like all the surfaces are at 45 degree - including ailerons. I didn't think about that. This is because at "pop-up type" maneuvers all surface must hold. If in example aileron flex at "wall" the plane can snap either way (as the wing geometry is changed). So I need to reevaluate my servos again. I wil post my finding soom. As for the "best bang for money" and excellent service I will stick to Hitec (all my non-microp servos are Hitec). Let's see how I will do about the weight and cost.:eek: First I need to measure al the surfaces.

RysiuM

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

I'm glad to see you considering everything when you talk about engines, very impressive. It all must be counted including the fuel. It was hard to believe that the feather weight Saito 180 was the same weight as the RCS 140 gasser including fuel but the Saito 180 easily needs a 24 ounce tank. Also consider that with the "pumped" gas engine you can put your tank on the CG. The plane flies way better with the tank there.

I have a CAP232 120 (see my avatar) and I use the Hitec 5645's all around. They are great servos for 47-50 bucks each. Use a 6 volt battery and you have 168 oz-in per surface. These servos will hold any position on any manuever with that plane.

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

Thanks, I don't want to screw up this one. It is very nice plane and it should fly well.

If it happens that I will have to use Saito, I will add Perry pump to keep it running always the same way. I hope it is a good idea. Also a header tank may add some reliability.

As for the surfaces.

Rudder (not counterbalanced part) - 30cm long, 15 cm chord.
Elevator (one half) -33 cm long, 10 cm chord,
Aileron - 60 cm long, 7 cm chord.

I run this thorugh servo calculator taking max speed = 80 mph and max deflection = 45 degree.
Here are the numbers:
80 mph - Rudder = 260 oz-inch, Elevator = 127 oz-inch, Aileron = 147 oz-inch
70 mph - Rudder = 199 oz-inch, Elevator = 97 oz-inch, Aileron = 112 oz-inch
60 mph - Rudder = 146 oz-inch, Elevator = 71 oz-inch, Aileron = 82 oz-inch

It is insane[X(]. I can't put a 5oz giant servo for rudder. It is a small plane.

I will ignore rudder then and use the strongest digital I can have: HS-5945MG (181 oz at 0.13s).
Elevator is not as critical so I can live with cheaper HS-5625 (131 oz at 0.14 s).
As for the ailrons I can use HS-5645 (168 ox at 0.18s) or use Tower deal for HS-5625 (4 servos for $186.97 - it's over 30 bucks saving). Or maybe my LHS can match Tower deal but mixing 5625 with 5645 (both cost the same).

This makes 305 bucks for all servos including HS-225MG for throttle.[X(]

RysiuM

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

I seriously doubt that you will ever deflect your rudder 45 degrees at 80 mph so that's not an issue. The 5645 or 5945 will work fine there.

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

What about snap roll? I love when it's done on spot.:)
The other thing is prop wash. It's not a matter of speed of the plane, but speed of the air flowing. But as I wrote I don't want to overload the plane with servos, so I will live with 5945. I will fly no more than 65mph then:D

BTW ont the weight area all servos wil be 11.5oz - so, much for RCS.

RysiuM

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

Back to engine :D

Sorry guys for bringing the subject again, but I just found detail info about MVVS 1.6 (gas). It is quite stronger than RCS 1.4 for just 2.5 oz more. Here is the measurment by [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=213279]posted here[/link]

RCS 1.40[ul][*] Engine is 850.49g (30 oz.) [*] Ignition is 116.23g (4.1 oz.) [*] RCS inverted Pitts muffler is 153.08g (5.4 oz.)
[/ul]

MVVS 1.60[ul][*] Engine is 932.70g (32.9 oz.) [*] Ignition is 107.73g (3.8 oz.) [*] Bisson Pitts muffler is 153.08g (5.4 oz.)
[/ul]

So total without duel and mount MVVS 1.6 will be 42.1oz. Plus battery and 10 oz tank is 54 oz - the same as Saito with 20 oz tank. But MVVS wil have allthe weight in nose (easier to balance tail) and tank at CG.

And because it has front carburator I can bolt closeer to the firewall than RCS (no need to long mount). This might be good alternative to Saito when Plane wil weight around 11 lb.

What do you think?

RysiuM

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

From the MVVS Canada website: "This combo spins a Menz "S" 18x8 propeller at 8400 rpm, producing approximately 17 pounds of static thrust! On a 10-14 pound aerobatic airplane, this is a recipe for FUN! We've also had customers reporting 9100 rpm on a Mezjlik 18x6 carbon prop. This combo puts out a staggering 20 pounds of static thrust!"

Hard to find anything wrong with that. I flew the Creek Edge (very similar size & weight to the Powerline) last year on Aviastar 1.5, APC 18x6W, getting 8300 rpm on a new engine running rich, and had plenty of vertical. Not enough to 3D though. If you can get the 9100 with a Meijzlik you should be in good shape. However, I'd be interested to know what exhaust those customers were using to get the 9100. You may have to go to tuned pipe for that.

You might check the Gas Engines forum and see what Pe Reivers has to report on this engine.

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

From [link=http://www.rcfaq.com/rpmstats/rpmbymfr2.htm##Saito]Model airplane engine performance database[/link] Saito 1.80can turn 17x8 from 8700 to 9300 (at 30% nitro). and everybody flying saito with H9Edge at 11+ lb claims full 3D performance. From the [link=http://home.flash.net/~jecramer/mvvs160.htm]real guy and real plane[/link] (not test stand run) MVVS turned 17x8 at 7900 rpm, so it is significant less power than Saito - is is enought for 3D on 11lb?

I don't see how I can make this Edge less than 11 lb (fueled): 7lb (airframe + hardware) + 1lb (radio + battery) + 3lb (engine + fuel).:(

RysiuM

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

I made my mind. Yesterday I ordered MVVS 1.6 from justengines (UK). I saw all sources in USA are backordered so I turned to UK. Even with insane exchange rate the price is fine (we don't pay UK VAT here).



As for the wing tube I measured it with digital caliper. It looks like it is pure metric size as OD is exactly 22.00mm and length is 650 mm. I just sent an e-mail to pbgcomposites with question what can I do about it.


Regarding the weight I checked with powe********* asking them how it is possible to make 9lb of ths plane. The answer was fast but kind of funy saying that dhis plane is discontinued and was not intended for 3D. Hmmm - I don't know what to think about that.:eek:


I just finished fixing my H9 Edge (1.2 size) from ninor damage (Crosswind and pilots error made it to run into the cage) so I'm starting assembly this Powergobbies Edge.
I checked all parts again and I can say it is beautyfull plane:) Very nice design and well built. All parts fit very well. I don't want to be rude to H9 but Powerhobbies Edge looks much better in design and quality. It is built light and strong. I can't find any place in structure that is overbuilt or not strong enough (I noticed a couple weak spots in H9 Edge that I had to fix). Wish me luck.:D


RysiuM

<EDIT>
I need to add this. Guys, if you need MVVS in USA, don't wait for back-order or preorder the stuff. I've never meet such friendly person as Paul from justengines in UK.
http://www.justengines.unseen.org/images/pj.jpg
I ordered my MVVS there yesterday, and today it is on the way to USA. total 300 GBP for the engine, BCS muffler, alu spinner with adapter and 3 wooden props shipped air right away Even with this insane exchange rates (about $575) I couldn't find a better deal.

RysiuM

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

Something about the hardware. I believe this is the "upgraded" hardware. The stuff I got looks much better than the stuff shown on the pictures in the instruction. Tail wheel assembly is a "leaf" type with springs (not glued to the rudder like the instruction shows). Also control horns are quite stronger (not the cheap plastic ones). However I decided to "upgrade" my hardware a little more.

1. Tail wheel assy. All looks very good. I like it very much except the leaf spring. I mean it is not a spring. It is soft aluminum bar very easy to bend. The wheel set and the horn is very good. So I bought Great Planes Scale Tail Gear Assembly (part no. GPMQ4245) and then I merged these two sets together. I used all parts from the plane but the aluminum bracket (leaf spring). Great Planes has excellent aircraft grade aluminum bracket (the rest is kind of "cheap";)) The only problem I had was that the wire used on GP is 3mm, Powerhobbies used 2.6mm. I made a small derlin bushing on my lathe, I pressed it inside GP hub and it works like a charm. And for sure looks much better. GB bracket is 4 gram heavier than PowerHobbies but it is superior strong. The best 4 grams added to the plane. On the picture below you can see the new "set" and all remaining parts: original PowerHobbies bracket and GB wheel - shaft assy.

2. Control horns are much better than shown in the instruction but quite heavy and not as strong as I'd like. It would be perfect if only they include tytanium screws instead of soft steel. Now is still not strong and it is heavy. I bought Sullivan metal Control Horns 1-1/8" (part no 557) thet are much stiffer and weight less. All PowerHobbies horns weight 32 grams, 6 Sullivan horns only 21 grams. So I saved total 11 grams. that balances added 4 grams in the tail wheel:D

3. Pushrods. Yes, supplied pushrods are definitly strong (see the picture). 4-40 metal clevises, steel pushrods are very good to carry the load. But for the holly heaven, they are HEAVY. 24 grams all 4 pushrods. I'm making CF ones with Du-Bro Safety Lock Kwik-Link on both ends. Half of that weight.


RysiuM

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

So far no luck with the wing tube. Whoever I turn to responds "We'rs sory, wo don't carry such odd size". Someone told me to use thinner tube and wrap it in masking tape to fit 22mm hole. I don't like it at all.[:o]

I finished both wings. This is the easiest ARF I ever worked with. Goes together like a Lego. Of course if you use supplied hardware. I gave myself a littel more work as I used different horns and pushrods.
The rcommended throw on ailerons is 12.5degree that is abut 3/4 inch My setup is 1-1/4 inch on low rates and 2 inches on high rates (about 35 degree). HS-5645 works great here.
Wings are mounted to the fuse by four plastic screws. All holes fit with 1/10 mm tollerances.

The tail goes as easy as it could be. The stab and the fin went into slots the the fuse without slop at all. Again very nice fit and all square out of the box. To keep joints strong but flexible (I expect gas motor will be shaky) I used Elmer glue. It dries much longer than 20 minutes epoxy but I can wait:)

RysiuM

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

Actually the building up of diameter with masking tape or other paper concoctions is an old trick that I've put to use many times over the years. It works a lot better than you might think. I would not hesitate to use it to solve a wingtube problem. You may have to experiment a bit to find the right tape, but a slip fit with light to moderate friction will work great. Sometimes you have to play with the winding angle a bit to get close spacing from one wind to the next without overlapping. Sometimes you can do it with just one width of tape laid straight along the length of the tube.

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

Do you need to paint it with something like dope or epoxy to make it slippery? I'm affraid, that while entering the sleve the pieces of tape might separate jamming the whole thing.

RysiuM

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

That's an interesting thought, one that has never occurred to me... I suppose because the problem has never presented itself. The non-sticky side of tapes I've used have always been smooth running through the outer tube. If you had any kind of roughness on the interior of the outer tube, I guess that might set things off. But if both tube and socket are reasonably smooth, you should have no problem coming up with a slightly enlarged diameter that fits easily but snugly into the socket. I've never had the sticky side of the tape curl over and bind on me. If you want to take precaution, I would say merely burnishing the tape down once you have a good fit would be all you'd need to do. Keep in mind that you will start with a fit that is loose by not too many thousandths of an inch, so you would probably need no more than a few layers of tape to fill the gap. One or two might easily do it.

Now that you've set my mind off, I think a hyper-obsessive type such as myself might lay down the first wind spaced slightly wider than the width of the tape; then the second layer would go down in two winds, one lapping halfway over the leading edge of the first wind, and the second lapping halfway over the trailing edge of the first wind. This would recess the sticky edge of the tape on both the insertion and withdrawal.

Reminds me of the slogan we had posted in our office when I was a mid-management slave: "There is no project too simple for our staff to complicate."

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

I decided to try this "OLD TRICK". I just ordered 3 ft of T170 from CST. CST suggested also to glue in a wooden plugs where the wings meet fuselage to protect CF tube from crushing.

CST tube weight 27 grams per ft so 26 inch should weight 59 grams. Including plug glue and tape I should around 2.5 - 3.0 oz. Still good weight saving.

RysiuM

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

I hinged the tail today and here is a problem. Both elevator servos are at the tail (below the stab). FThe fuselage at that point is to narrow to fit two servos side by side. So PowerHobbies solved that problem by mounting the right servo above the left one. Cool, but there is a small problem. Now on the right servo horn is pointing down, on the left side the horn is pointing up.
The problem is in geometry. There is no way for both elevator halves travel the same distance when both servos travel the same angle. It is no good for precision flyng.

Now I need to do the same "surgery" that I did in H9 Edge. I will move elevator servos one former to the front. Here the fuse is wide enough to fit both servos side by side. Both servos will be at the same distance and the same level relative to the stab and both horns will be pointing up. I need to make and glue in plates for servo mount.

I don't have 100% matching yellow covering, so there will be a "spot". But for me the most important thing is the performance not apperance.

RysiuM

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

In both of these edge's that i have, there was a little bit of covering and wood as "extra" that was included. That might help. Or maybe if you have a computer radio, you can even out the travel that way. That is what i plan to do. I have finished one for another flyer and started on mine last night. It goes together quickly.

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

Yes, I have it too. Just a small piece. If I will not able to repair covering nice I can always add a red or blue trim :D

I don't think there is a way of programming it. When you set neutral and end-point, there will be still difference in between these points. It's pure geometry. For small travel it may be not much difference, and with crappy servos you may not notice it between slope, but I dont want to take any chances.

When I was setting up my H9 Edge I found that tle elevator travel at regular flying is less than 30% of maximum travel (3D). If you setup elevator for maximum travel = 10 degrees you can get away with that. But having maximum travel 30 degree you need every bit of precision for regular flying or the plane will be "wild"[X(].


It is amazing ARF. If you go by original design and hardware (not by instruction BTW, as this one is crappy indeed) it goes very easy. But it never happened yet, that I made a plane (KIT or ARF) without changing something :) For that ARF I would recommend to replace tail wheel bracket at least. You will not have to many landings on this sof alu-bar.

RysiuM

P.S. I have 3 spare sets of original decals for H9 Edge so I'm going to make PowerHobbies Edge identical like my H9. Just to confuse buddies at the field :D

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

Don't put the decals from H9 on it. Be proud you paid half the cost of a H9 Edge and received better quality.

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

But PowerHobbies didn't give me any. Not even a simle company logo. It is a shame[:o]

I will not put this red-white-blue Edge 540 on the fuse - I will keep the painted 'EDGE 540" in black. I will just use the tiop "Shell", all tail decals (including the flag) and of course the main wing decals. Right now it just looks kind of "plain";)

RysiuM

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

Gues what - my engine arrived. I couldn't believe. Royal Mail rules together with fast and great service from Paul from justengines.com I checked it - I ordered it Friday 04/22/05 it arrived Tuesday 04/26/05 ( 4 days including weekend). Don't forget that they are 8 hours ahead.

regarding MVVS - it is very nice piece of hardware. Will you believe that it looks (maybe it is) smaller than Saito 180. Very easy to install in the plane. Now I'm waiting for backlate mount for balancing test.

One more thing about the ignition - it takes 90-120 mA at iddle and up to 500mA 9k ropm. With 800 Lipo I'm good for 2 hours of flying. And has two safety features: It shuts off for some time inactivity, and on low voltage it chanes the timing to slow down the engine to around 3k-4k rpm. You will have time to land before dead stick.

RysiuM

RE: Powerline Hobbies Edge 23%
 

Sitting in the hotel room in the middle of nowhere (with high speed internet at least) I run some calculation on the original tail setup. I simulate the situation where at full servo deflection (45 degree) both elevators are at the same spot (holes in both servos are at the same distance from the stab). Servo horn and elevator horn is 1 inch long. I wanted to see that is the difference between both elevators halves between neutral and max deflection.

As you can see the maximum difference is at 35 degree at it is about 0.65 degree. The maximum relative difference is at 30 degree about 2%.

So it looks like it is not as much as I was affraid of. I might dump the idea of changing the servo setup and go with stock.

RysiuM