Unrecognizeable scale models
 

Gee, I haven't started a post on any site for a while. I just thought I'd test the water by asking opinions about the reason I just stopped getting a couple of the new ERC oriented magazines.

When I started in Model Aviation, Jets were less than 10 years old. There was considerable emphasis on planes looking like plains, and people writing articles knowing what was what. I just got fed up with captions like "This great flying Sopwith Camel" appearing twice in one mag, two different editorial sections, on pictures, one of which was a DeHaviland Jenny, and the other what looked more like an SE-5. And another had a review on an ARF that was supposed to be a Beaver being labeled as "A highly accurate scale model", although the plane on question looked like it had the Pinoccio syndrome. These are only a couple of things that got my attention over the last year. There has been some good info in these mags, but the frequency of statements like those I mentioned makes me doubt the actual knowledge base of the people running the mags.

What do you think

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

Welcome to the new wave in the hobby! ARF mania.
It started slowly but has taken over the industry like a virus and what you see on the national magazines is just a reflection of what is happening out in the flying fields across this country. I've been involved in the hobby for almost 30 years and the first trainer I bought back then was an ARF distributed by Hobby Shack, called Tristar .40, it took off flew half a pattern and then one of the wings broke in midflight, that made me a believer in building my own airplanes from then on. I enjoy building from scratch and kits and in between those an ARF or two, and somehow they always dissapoint me, as you say, even the ones that are scale, are not accurate at all, but some of them are attractive. What goes around comes around, and by looking at the prices some people are paying for kits on the classified section, it won't be long that manufacturers might start venturing back into the market again, at least I hope they will, somehow I had the vision of this happening and a few years ago I started buying good quality kits before this site changed name to RCUniverse and have around thirty in my garage, waiting to be built and I am very glad I did it back then, as today it is very rare to find a quality kit anymore, by the most part they don't fit my criteria and the prices are just like real estate, go figure, people are paying astronomical figures and then they become collectors items! :D:D
And yes, the people writing magazines articles are also new generation ARF'rs, the good scale article writers have gotten old, many have died, and so we have to put up with this trend, there are however some very good British magazines for the scale enthusiasts, which I love reading, national mags to me are not saying much, too bad. [:o][:o]

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

I agree 100%. I too have been disapointed more than once after buying an ARF.
The folks who believe that to have a great plane , one must build it from a kit ........they still build them from a kit or scratch.
Nothing has changed there that I see. Many of the warbird modelers build from a kit or from plans to ace that scale look to the T.
Times change. The world is all about instant gratification and fast fixes. When you two started flying I bet nobody offered anything such as a RTF model did they ? Now I see ARFs starting to come out that only need the tail feathers and wing halves attached before you can start flying. I forsee more of the same in the future. But the kit will remain for those that are true modelers.
There are some great ARFs out there. And a few companies that are breaking the mold in ARF production.
I ordered an Edge-540 from a Canadian/U.S company called VectorFlight not long ago. I've been very pleased with the plane.
But on the other hand, I've bought one or two that I won't name here,, that either fell apart in mid air or one that rotted , warped and fell apart over the winter. And it was only one season old.[:'(]

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

The world is also about doing what you enjoy and what you are good at. If one does not enjoy building, or if after several tries, discovers they are not good at it, why should they bother? And why should anyone else say disparaging things about people who choose to fly ARFs? Let's just learn to let people enjoy what they want without sneering behind their backs that they need "instant gratification" or fast fixes" because they happen to fly an ARF. Building a kit, or from plans, before one can fly is a right of passage that's no longer required. The hobby is better off for this.

Oh, in case you're wondering, I built 2 kits in the last year.

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

you speak of models that are "stand off" scale so they're not use to being under close scrutiny. but that's not that bad... you should see some of the adverts here in taiwan. when they say scale, i click in to find pattern ships no where close to a real plane. some of the ARFs being advertise as extras are merely ugly sticks with a different cowl. even world models, has a range of aircombat planes that are really just low wing trainers they've put different cowls and covering on with no resemblance to the real plane. is it annoying? not really. i take them for what they are, fun scale. i just feel sad for those people that buy them thinking that it's "scale" its only those of use with some realy interest in aviation that know what the actual plane looks like.

in regards to ARFS, while the quality of an ARF cannot compare with the quality of a high grade kit and experienced building, it does surpass that of a new builder. i remember my first kit over 20 years ago. i was just a kid then. that plane was held together with more tape than glue. needless to say, it didn't pass the FAA exams (my parents) and thus never got to buying the engine or radio. 15 years ago, i built a pattern ship and that also came out 1 lbs heavy and required liberal trim to get it to fly straight. it crashed as a result of my inexperience. without the time (or motivation) to repair the plane, it sat idle until i moved and gave it away.

when i picked up the hobby again 5 years ago, i was putting in 15-16 hour days. in fact, it was the 15-16 hour days that got me so burned out, i decided i needed a hobby. i bought my first ARF, a china-made trainer, and i haven't looked back since. i just don't have the time and space to build a kit. my ARF's were built in the living room of my 500 sq.ft flat.

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

I've got 2 of these things. One flying, and one still in the box. The zero is quite ugly, but it flies great, and with an old OS 32FSR, is quite quick. It's my favorite "beater plane". It's cheap, not so pretty, and not at all scale, but I fly it more than any other plane. The one in the box is a Yak. I'm thinking of bashing it a bit by adding retracts.

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

I am on my second kit now and there comes a point for me that my interest in building just begins to wane. Maybe it is instant gratification, but in my opinion, I have given building a chance. I am nearing the end of building a Hog Bipe and have built a Somethin Extra. I am no expert, but I do believe I can put together a pretty good model. However, I seem to hit a wall after a period of time, and I walk past the building table day after day and say..."I'll pick it up again tomorrow." I have 6 planes flying presently, the Hog is my 7th. Of the 6, 5 are ARF's and I can say the quality on all but one is fine. I am finding that I would rather fly than build. Now maybe, I might do another kit after the Hog is built and maybe not. Only time will tell. I do believe though that I have given the building thing a chance and it's just not what I enjoy, and I don't have any problems with anyone who would rather fly than build or those who like to build then fly. There's room for everyone in this hobby.

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but this is not another ARF's vs Build thread.

If my comprehension is intact, "50+AirYears" is referring to the latest trend to refer to an aircraft as a scale representation when ot bears little resemblance to "the real mcKoy".

I too have seen last generation pattern planes re-released with warbird markings, marketed as messerschmitts and focke wulfes.:eek:[>:]

What's worse, I've seen writers evaluating these bits of fantasy, using the flight characteristics of the model to draw conclusions about the real aircraft.

If building isn't your thing, fine. You're welcome to enjoy your cookie-cutter, standard fare, looks exactly like almost everyone else's hot-glued, shelf paper covered abomination the "unwashed masses" are carting to the field these days.;) :D

If I may make a prediction...
Eventually all model aircraft will have the same airframe and "type" will be simply a choice of covering. A manufacturing/marketing guru's dream.:eek: ... would you like fries with that?[:@]

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

Hey, forestroke, I know what you mean about the long days. I have just recently been brought down to under a 50 hour week myself, but in the near future we have a threat to go back to normal.

I wasn't attacking RTFs or ARFs. I have several, some of them quality construction and good flyers. I wasn't even saying anything about some of the bad construction I've seen. ARFs/RTCs aren't that new. The first ARF I got was a plastic Wen-Mac American-made CL plane about 1949, and there were some available towards the end of WW2.

Point I was trying to make is the declining quality of some of the information available out there. Many of the so-called scale planes don't even resemble their namesakes. They don't qualify as Stand-Off or Sport Scale. They aren't that close. Some of them at best could be considered Caricature Scale. When editors can't even do correct identifications, that brings to mind some of the (instant results oriented) management decisions to ignore problems in my company that have caused some serious conflicts with customers.

Of course, over the years, I've frequently been disturbed by reviews where the reviewer talks about every step of construction of a kit or assembly of an ARF, then takes the finished product out to the field, has a ball with a badly tail heavy plane because he didn't bother to check the balance. Like we say in our Engineering department, we never have the time to do it right the first time, but we can sure take the time to correct it later.

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

Wasn't trying to get this off track, but after reading my post, I can see where someone might think I was debating the ARF vs Kit thing. Didn't want to convey that, but that's what it sounds like.

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

I like that, Caricature Scale... I may just have to borrow that the next time that "Fun Scale" proposal goes past the committee.:D

We call that "fix forward" in software engineering. :eek:

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

Hey, Jim...

Settle down, buddy. No need to spike your blood pressure...:D

I know this isn't supposed to be a kits vs ARF thread, but I couldn't resist...

As a kit-builder who also is one of those "unwashed masses who lug an ARF out to the field", I can tell you that some of these ARFs today are built & covered as well as you or I could do. Lots of traditionalists refuse to believe that, but its true.

I would welcome the return of kits in general, but I just don't see it. We're hearing now that even the big-time kit producers like Sig are having trouble getting decent balsa.

I wish I had done like Walter and started looking for certain vintage kits years ago. The prices here and on eBay have gotten totally out of the box. I don't even look anymore, its so depressing...[&o]

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

Yeah, the ARF not looking like the real plane thing is...distracting to say the least. Having just started back in the sport, it is nice to be able to be out flying in a fairly quick fashion. Plus it's nice to be able to get into a more complicated model without having to build right off the bat. Many of arfs are very nice looking though as someone said earlier.

It reminds me though of a conversation that took place this weekend that proves the point ya just can't please anyone.

Guy looks at my H-9 P-40 in my truck and makes the comment "There is no way I can put that kind of time into a model"
Keep in mind it is build stock with only one addition of a small wire screen inside one of the intake holes to simulate a radiator. This took about 10 minutes.

The guys son says "no Dad, this is ONLY an ARF"

So what should a guy be more offended by? The fact that the Dad thought it was stupid to spend that kind of time on a plane? Or that the guys kid said it was ONLY an ARF.

It was just kind of funny.

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

i'm with jim on that. it's too funny not to use it! sad part is that it's sad that it does describe many of the products today.

piper chuck - i'm not saying that the WM combat series is bad. in fact the planes are really great flyers. just that it would be funny if people thought this is what a P-47 thunderbolt looks like.

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

Why be offended?
Ignorance by chance is regrettable, ignorance by choice ... is the direct result of instant gratification.:D

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

Didn't think you were. I was just adding to what you said. Change it to green and you'd have my "Zero".

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

:D

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

this is the picture i was looking for when i first saw this post:

lovely :D

RE: Unrecognizeable scale models
 

I bought and built a Midwest .40 size Suhkio kit a few years ago. I knew it wasn't going to be scale but it wasn't even close. Not that it wasn't a good flyer or to knock Midwest. Just not what a bargained for. The cowl was round and fuse was flat. There was about 1" between the cowl and fuse on each side. It also had as much dihedral as a trainer. I wish a had a digital camera back then. Somewhere in the back of the book Midwest called it a "stand off and squint scale". STAND WAY OFF!

David