charge for building ARF's
 

Guys

I'v been thinking about building a few ARF for people who don't like to build. I've been ask to do this several times. I've build probably 10 or so kits and about that many ARF's. I like to build and people say nice things about the kits I build. I was thinking I should charge about half of the cost of the ARF for a complete build, ready to fly. Any one doing this, how much to you charge, and any pro's or con's??????

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

Going rate is 70-120 dollars depending on how good you are.
For a properly setup warbird, I would say 100.00 (this because of retracts, cowling spinner e.t.c.) E.g. Hangar 9 corsair, this would include renforcing the firewall, however, say the customer wanted the servos in the fuse and not the tail, I would charge an extra 20.00 to do that...

For something like a Sig 4 Star I would say 70.00 because you don't have to deal with a cowling and the gear is simple...

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

Guys,

I'm going to lock this thread. Technically it is against RCU policy so if there are any more answers, please use the PM feature

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

Thats a tough one. Now, are you slow and precise or just plan on slapin it together. As mentioned above, some need more attention to detail and some don't. If its done just to fill a void its one thing, if your talking work that you need to live, thats another story. There used to be a retired guy that would assemble trainers for the LHS for $20.00 each. That was long ago and he enjoyed doing it for 'hobby money'.

I did a UCD .60 for a guy once and charged what the arf cost him. Seems steep when you first think of it. Kept track of my time and it totalled out to 30 hours. $189.00 for the arf = $6.30 an hour. Spec'd as a 10 hour build time.......yeah, right! Have built five of these and with that experience, I don't need the instructions anymore, but they still take me around 30 hours each. That 30 hours results in perfection, from removing wrinkles to wing incidence corrections. Yes, three out of five needed correction.

Along with assembling it, you have to see that the factory did their part as well. Check or re-glue joints, firewalls, etc. etc. If you build it and it crashes for any reason, there will be a question in someones mind.

It all comes down to this, whats our time worth? Good luck. Joe

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

There are many ways of building (assembling) Arf's. Some people will just put them together without even following the builders suggestions for assembly. Some others will put the plane together exactly as suggested buy the manufacturer. Then there are those that will pay careful attention to every detail in the process of assembling the aircraft. They will reinforce or modify any area that is weak or inadequate in the design. They will install the radio and servos where they are the most efficient, paying careful attention to balance and fit. The cowl will always be perfectly centered with any cutout's kept to a bare minimum. These builders are the ones that are hard to find, and can command the most money for their time. These builders might take three time maybe more for their time, because money can't replace competence, skill. and pride in their work. and they still will always have someone waiting for to build another plane for them.
Discounting the statement above, a general guideline for building, that has been used in the RC industry is, to charge the same price to assemble, and install the radio and engine, as the kit sells for. On the other hand, if you start out with a builders kit, (built up) it's usually twice the amount as the kit because you have to sand and cover the aircraft, after it's completed. In the end though.......it all comes down to whatever you are willing to accept in quality, and how accomplished the builder is. Then lastly, whatever you and the builder can agree to. Just make sure that you (or the builder) both know exactly how much the final cost will be, and what state of assembly will be is expected.

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

Thanks for the replies,

I have a full time job, so I would just be doing it for a little hobby money (can't have too much of that). I very seldom sit down to watch TV like my wife and kids do. Waste of time when one could be in the hobby room building, repairing, tweaking something, or just dreaming about what you want or think you need next. Get where I'm coming from! I can not stand to have something not lined up or look link crap. I've bought a whole role of covering just to get the inch or so I need to make the plane look good. I've seen some ARF's assembled that I would not let my dog fly. I know some ARF's are more ARF's than others. I've spent over 30 hrs. on some also.

Think I may do a couple trainers, 4 star, something like that and see how it goes.

Thanks

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

50-150% of the cost of the ARF....depending on the individual ARF.

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

A few years ago a guy charged my wife 100.00 to assemble a H9 80 " Cub as a gift to me.

That seemed fair. He did a good job.

I wish she'd do it again :D

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

I just bought a Super Kraft Cap 232 120 and a BCMA gas engine. Plus all the goodies to make a super nice plane. I am paying a guy 200.00 dollars to build it. This is my first gas plane and I have a lot of money invested and have never built a gasser. I think this a fair price. Time is money and if the person has a proven track record its worth even more.

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

The last one I build was for a newbie who kept buying used junk. Finally he bought a new GP Big Stik, Futaba Skysport, and Rossi engine.

I really wanted to do this right so the guy could fly. I was not new to the model, so I re-enforced where needed. I am confident in this model. The owner was a guy with very limited funds, but there was not anything on that aircraft used once complete. The sad thing is, he probably spent $1000 on the previous used aircraft that all failed. I was asked what I would charge to build another. I remarked that I would build one of those for $50 if they supplied all the material which I was told was way too low. I spent about 10 hours finishing the aircarft, so they were probably right. If a person wanted anything more than the build from the owner's manual, I would charge considerably more, especially in the case of poor covering such as the Tower Kaos.

I guess the bottom line for me would be $50 to $100 depending on the model. That gets you a good solid aircraft that looks good, but it does not get you the right to expect perfection in cosmetic appearance or relief from manufacturer defect.

Bob

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

Amen, Amen and Amen.

You guys don't think much of your time if you think that you can screw together the average ARF in a short amount of time and expect decent results from the model. I have well over 100 hours in my only (and probably last ARF) and I do not see how anyone could build a reliable ARF such as this one in less time. (H-9 P-47) That is, unless you co not care how it looks, or performs.

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

dprater ,, sounds like you are willing to take some jobs on. I'm sure you do good yet speedy work or you probably wouldn't have posted this . There are alot of guys that can build just fine but have no extra time to sit down in the evening and get much done.
Make some flyers and post them in the Lexington area LHS's. Figure out a fair hourly price and wait for the phone calls.

You won't be missing any quality TV programs these days to speak of. And when your mounting that engine or fitting that cowling you can think about the new toys you'll be buying with the money.:D

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

Time and material:eek: Boy I can not believe how cheap some people are and others pay and injoy. A lot of people want you to build for nothing because you are retired:eek: and think you have all the money you need, WRONG . I have the reputation of being one of the best and I can prove it:eek::D[sm=confused.gif][sm=spinnyeyes.gif]

Edit Is $25.00 plus material to much to some:eek: to some yes

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

Question, How can it take 100 hrs to assemble an arf with good quality and attention to detail? (just a question)

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

We don't build these ARF's guys. We just assemble what the real craftsman have built. Would like to see some pic's of the factories that are building these great airplanes.

Don

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

I would.

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

I guess it just depends on what your definition of good quality is. Mine needed a lot of rebuilding/reengineering, for instance. The firewall is flimsy and is only adhered to the framework with hot glue. The retract gear mounts were marginally glued in place, one gear leg did not/would not fully close (gear mount rails on that side were 1/16" out of plane with the other side, Longeron in the fuselage was broken when received, and the sheeting was not damaged (tells me that it was broken during assembly at the factory and ignored). The wing saddle was out of true, the belly pan was warped, and skewed. Do I need to go on? This is my first ARF, and will probably be my last. I have been stick building for over 50 years, and Not just from kits, but drawing my own plans and truly scratch building. I know I spend more time in the shop building, but I really expected more from an ARF. According to what people in here tell me, what I got is considered to be the best out there. If so, Heaven help us all.

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

If you are interested, I will be happy to download some construction photos tonight, and you can see what real build quality is. It ain't in some woodshed in Asia.

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

BalsaBandit: Museum quality doesn't come in a box ready for assembly. But for most of us (myself included) museum quality aircraft is beyond our building skills anyway. Speaking for myself, I'd rather be out flying anyway. Ninety percent of the ARF'S that are being sold today are probably capable of flying far beyond my capability's anyway. In today's market, you pretty well get what you pay for. Of course there are those that will bring a new Kit or product to the market and after just releasing one ARF, with very heavy advertisement, they will sell one shipment of an inferior product, and never be heard of again. That happens in every market. Remember, you've been in the hobby for fifty years. I've been in radio control, for almost 47 years. (started in 1959) I've also been a continuous member of AMA for all those years, I think I can speak with some authority when I say that in those 47 years, there have been three, major introductions in the way we build and fly our aircraft today.

1: The introduction of "Mono coat".

2: The introduction o "CA" adhesive.

3: The introduction of ARF aircraft.

I understand that no "ARF," will compare with a model built by Dave Platt. But, there are just not that many Dave Platt's, and others of his caliber around. Certainly not me, and I suspect I'm not the only one. No they may not have all the attention to detail, and "WOW" factor that some of the custom builders are able to turn out.............But, they're getting closer all the time.
And that's good enough for me.

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

How about something like a Super Skybolt framed up and ready for the rag and dope. That ain't ever going to be in a museum, just good old fashioned craftsmanship. There are some other photo's too, I will load them tonight.
Bill

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

I love Silk & Dope. I've got a 33% Extra covered that way. I venture that most modelers today would never go that route. I've been there, done that. When I started there was no other way. No .....I'll settle for a good olé ARF, by one of the Mfg's. that's been around long enough to establish a reputation any day. To each his own

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

By the way, the ARF that I just finished, is not from one of the one hit wonders. It was distributed by one of the, "Fair haired children" who seemingly can do no wrong. Maybe I got the last one built on Friday, or the first one from Monday, makes no defference, a piece of crap, by any other name is still .... you get the idea. I will never settle for something that is not right. Why would you want to do differently? Don't you expect to get what is advertised? That has been my point since I bought this thing. They (the importers/distributors) are not delivering what they advertise. If you can put this pig together in the amount of time that they suggest, I would not want to be in the same county when it is flown. It will be dangerous. I have been a safety inspector at many flying meets over the past 30 or so years, and I would not allow any airplane that had such construction techniques to fly in competition. Ambroid was bad enough, but Hot Glue for the firewall to fuselage fitting? Come on. Hot glue for the Retract rails? No reinforcement for the wing joint. The spar joiner is maybe 4" end to end. There is more, but you are going to repeat what you said about ARF means good enough. Not Museum scale. I guess I'm just wasting my breath.

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

Name the manufacturer. Just for your information.I judge the Nats every year. So I too understand what quality is. Crap is subjective. I've never seen a balsa kit that I didn't have to replace some of the balsa in. And Yes.....I've built the Sig Skybol, and the sig Smith Mini plane. Both wer silk and dope. Look at "MY Models at the bottom of this page and you can see some of my planes. The Aeromaster is Dacron and dope.

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

We have a club member that does not fly but assembles ARF's, builds kits and scratch builds. He was a master craftsman by trade before he retired.

He will build/assemble anything you want and to any level you want. I recently saw a GP Super Stearman Arf that he just completed. When I spoke to him about it it took him roughly 100 hours to complete the assembly, BUT you could not find the seams where the wings joined, where the tail feathers where glued on. Also those little rivets that come with the plane were hand painted on, the 2 pilots that come with it were completely customized to look the part, he took the fake engine and where he cut it out for air cooling he applied a thin screen and painted it to match the rest of the fake engine so at first glance you could not tell it was a screen. He checked and adjusted all wing and tail incidences and a small host of other little tidbits not to mention he redesigned how the top wing mounted which made it a ton easier to do and virtually guaranteed no changes in the top wing incidence during field assembly/dsassembly

He charged the owner $1500 for the assembly and the owner had me do the maiden. It needed absolutely no trim, balance was dead on and it flew very well. This plane could have easily been in a museum as it was as scale looking as could be and probably one of the best assembly jobs I have ever seen.

He did a scratch built (not kit) 90 inch TaylorCraft for another person that I got to look at up close and personal. Total cost for only the build (labor) was $3500. The quality was right up with the Stearman. I hear that plane has won many first place trophies

Yes he is expensive, but he is what one would call a master builder. He is good and people around here know it. I asked him to do my Stearman for me and he said he would not be able to get to it for at least a year, he has that much to do. I am told by other members that every plane, no matter what it is gets all of his attention until it is done his way. Every plane needs little to no trim. If I would not be so impaitent, I'd buy a Carden and turn him loose on it because I know what I'd get would be top quality at what I would consider to be a very fair price.

So it all boils down for me is I'd gladly pay for quality work. I do know that ARF's are a hit and miss thing and would expect to have to pay for someone to go over the ARF inch by inch and adjust as needed.

As has already been said you could do "levels" and we are going to assume that you do decent quality work.

Build strictly by the manual (cost of the ARF)
By the manual with strengthening in obvious areas (Cost plus $50)
By the manual but not the whole ARF is gone over and corrected aa needed (Cost plus $200)
By the maunal with all of the above but now you start to pull back covering, fill and sand seams at to hide them. (Cost plus $400)
All of the above but now wing/stab incidences are gone over and adjusted as needed (Cost plus $600)

Well, you get the idea

I know the numbers are somewhat high as you get into the nitty gritty stuff but it should be as it will take allot more work and thought to get it right. Labor is not everything, you time and having to think through a problem is also valuable. Ask any one who is a consultant

RE: charge for building ARF's
 

Bubbagates: This is a suggested price scale that is very fair for what you expect from the builder. That is just about what I expect to pay for QUALITY craftsmanship. This is not what I would expect for someone to charge if the plane was built from as you said, "a Cardin Kit". We must remember that no ARF, will ever approached the perfection that a Master builder can achieve from building a quality "Builders Kit". As I said in my other post, "You pretty well get what you pay for". I can't imagine any Arf being sold today, that Even I, with my limited building skills, would not be able to put together and make any necessary adjustments that I think are needed to improve it's structure, and fly-ability. I just completed a 36% Aeroworks, Katana "ARF," that I gave the builder, about $600.00 to assemble the plane, install the radio, servos, and engine. After he had finished what he had agreed to do, aqnd I received it from him, I then had to program all the servos, and put the graphics on it. Is it a perfect aircraft? no, (NO ARF IS) Are there visible design blemishes,and lack of sanding before the Ultra Coat, covering was put on? absolutely. But in the end I got exactly what I paid for.......An aircraft that is straight, Fly's great, and Looks Super. I'm satisfied with it because it flys beyond my capability's. I just wish Balsabandit, would tell us the name of the company selling the ARF, he found so horrible. After all don't we you owe it to our fellow modelers, everyone will have a heads up? Isn't that what these threads are for. Information, PRO & CON.