ARF / KIT Difference Discussion
 

Since this topic, ARFs versus kits, is so important to some people that it constantly takes over decent thread topics, let's localize the topic here.

That said........................

Most discussions about ARF vs Kits/ScratchBuilt are almost always marked with personal bickering. For some reason, people have wound up discussing each other. DO NOT DO THAT. If you feel compelled to post your opinion of another poster, DON'T.

This topic actually is an important detail about ARFs/RTFs. So let's talk about it. HERE

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

This is BS, I wish moderators would stop allowing ARF vs. Kits discussions/threads, it just causes bad feelings amongst people who basically have the same love of a Hobby, but people have to keep stirring up bad feelings and starting problems...

CAN SOMEONE IN RC UNIVERSE PUT AN END TO ALL THIS BICKERING AND PEOPLE LIKE THIS STARTING TROUBLE THREADS?[:@]

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

Uhhhh, Chuck,

If you will check, you will see that this one was begun by a Moderator.

Bill, AMA 4720

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

Absolute statements regarding ARFs, kits and building from plans are silly. There are good and bad ARFs, good and bad kits and good and bad plans.

Design and quality problems are present in all three. Internet forums can be helpful in knowing about these problems and correcting or reducing them.

When I am asked to do the maiden for someone’s new aircraft, I hope it is (in preference sequence):

1) An ARF
2) A kit
3) Built from plans
4) User designed

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

this is a bs topic, causing problems and irratation in the hobby it adds nothing to the hobby and it should be removed, but the moderators removed my earlier comments because this was posted by a moderator, showing favortism to the moderators...

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

I fail to see any importance here other than to discuss something where one thing has no bearing on the other. A modeler who builds from plans would have very little interest in an ARF perhaps and someone who only does ARF's has no idea what it takes to build a plane from plans. There is no versus involved. Might as well compare free flight to RC or Control Line.

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

:eek:........

As an aside, how small do the bits have to be before you are a "real" jigsaw puzzle person?

I've got it:

If you build it on the coffee table, it's a toy - be ashamed. If you built in in your workshop, you're a man - like me :D. "What? Yes dear, I'll be right in........"

Cheers,

Cam

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

I don't think there really is one that is better than the other. I love the ARFs, Kits and Plans. They all bring enjoyment to me and all have the same ending to them. They are put together or built (however your minds except the way ARFs are completed) and the kits and plans are built and then ultimately they are flown and enjoyed by the person who owns it. Plain and simple. I have all three and love every aspect of putting the planes together to the excitement of pulling them out of the work area and puttting them into the truck, to getting them to runway for the first time and in the air and there on after. Again, point being made they all fly in the end and that is what we are here to achieve is flight. Have fun with whatever you chose and enjoy this wonderful hobby. Not all hobbies are created equal. :D

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

I guess I am wondering why it is that you closed 2 threads on the same topic because of flaming and getting off topic.....then go right into opening another one? I did a search and found plenty of this very same topic. Why not reopen one of them?

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

OK, I'll leave this off topic to give ANOTHER description of what this is about.

This thread is about the difference between ARFs and kits. None of the others were. If you feel the need to discuss the differences, here's the place.
The threads that were closed before were not about the differences between ARFs and kits. The original subjects did not deserve to be obliterated by the few who turned the threads into spitting contests. But they were so overwhelmed that they needed to be given time-out to see if they could be salvaged. The other "two" were not about this topic but were overrun by people who chose to post about it.

We very often have pleasant discussions that stray a bit. And we often speak to each other. But............

If you feel the need to flame or get off topic IN ANY THREAD, reread the rules and understand ahead of time why your posts that contain personal opinions of others and clearly off topic posts will be deleted.

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

Main difference in ARFs and kits?? Just been mentioned once. The size of the pieces you start out with.

Scratch builders start out with very few pieces.
Kit builders start out with a lot of pieces.
ARF builders start out with a few pretty large pieces.

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

Other threads I'd like to see:

"IT Industry vs Food Service"

This is a thread only for ARF fliers, where they can discuss the relative merits of purchasing an airplane with money made by working on computers vs. purchasing the same airplane with money made managing the local pizza place.

"Fast vs Slow"

This is where pylon racers get together with indoor fliers, and hash out whether it's better to go REALLY fast or REALLY slow.

"Glow vs Electric vs Gas vs Propane vs Biodiesel vs Solar"

The 'How should a plane be powered' free-for-all we've ALL been waiting for.

"Yellow vs Blue"

What's the best color???

And, of course, "Snow vs Water vs Grass vs Dirt vs Pavement vs Kitchen Table vs The Cat"

The thread where we finally determine, once and for call, what really is the BEST landing surface.

==================

The whole thing is silly. Do what ya like, don't do what ya don't like, and have fun with model airplanes.

There's really only one exception to the rule above:

The rubber powered Guillows Cessna my daughter and I recently finished IS the world's greatest airplane...and anyone who says different is just plain wrong. ;)

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

I wonder if there are any of these topics in the building forum? I may have to start one to see their side of this matter.......kick....kick.

To stay on topic I just spent 4 hours recovering a kit that was built by someone else. When tearing off the old covering I noticed that he did a poor job gluing and fitting parts. Also in some spots it was appartent he was in a hurry. This alone says a lot about builders in general. Some take their time and others just can't wait to fly. I have 2 kits planes and they are both opposite in that they were built by 2 totally different people. One guy was very meticulous and the other a bragger. The guy would built this plane I just recovered is a mouthy arrogant person who brags about his marvelous planes he builds......good thing they are covered! No one can see the poor job under his covering. He also is the same guy who crashes a lot and looks around like someone hit him. Fact is that his wing broke in mid flight.....no radio hit. I was filming it and got it on tape. He of course won't admit it was his fault....but we know differently. So all in all I guess a kit is only as good as the guy building it.....same goes for arf's.

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

From the perspective of a relative beginner I think the difference is the intimidation factor.

I've been interested in RC flying for quite a while, but just never took the time (or had the time) to get involved. I believe that if I thought that my only way to get into the hobby was to build my trainer from a sticks and glue kit I probably would have just passed again. I'm reasonably "handy" but working with small pieces that require a lot of detail and patience is not my strongest suit, and isn't something I particularly enjoy. The availability of ARF's & RTF is what convinced me to take the leap.

I suspect that there are a lot of folks like me who gave it a try because they could go to their local hobby shop and purchase equipment that would allow them to get in the air in a reasonable amount of time, with something that is known to fly well from the git-go. The availability of ARF's and RTF's has to have had a positive impact on the number of people who try the hobby and then stay with it. It also gives those same folks a huge variety of aircraft to choose from for their 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc aircraft. At some point down the road I'd like to fly a large scale Skylane (such as the H9 ARF). I've flown them full scale and would love to have a model. The thought of spending 6-9 months building it isn't real attractive to me at this point, because my main interest is in the flying.

I will probably build a kit or 2 down the road, if for no other reason than to develop some repair skills. And who knows......I may get as hooked on building as I am on flying.

I flew small control line planes as a kid, and knew from the start that I wanted to go glow rather than electric. I just love the sounds and smells of the glow planes.

Bob

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

I suggest that an appropriate thread topic for discussion of the difference between ARFs and build-it-yourself Kits would be "ARF / KIT Difference Discussion".


EDIT.............

Good idea. No need to sound combative when we don't mean to be.

So be it.

We will interpret the subject, "ARFs versus kits" as "ARF/ KIT Difference Discussion".

Now, let's discuss that.

BTW, I removed all the offtopic stuff that wasn't about the differences between ARFs and kits...... ;)

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

Actually, this is a misleading statement. You can look at the kit version and the pre-built version of the same identical airplane, and you will find that the pre-built version has far fewer parts than does the kit. There will be ribs found in the kit that are not present in the pre-built model. There will be vast differences in the formers (both in number as well as the design). There will be a difference in the wood dimension and make up between the two as well, and finally there will be a major difference in outline as well. Case in point is the Cox (Pica) UMF Waco. I know that they call it a YMF, but it's not. The wing is not scale in outline since the wingtips are very far out of scale, and the center section on the pre-built carries the dihedral all the way to the wing center, where the kit and full scale utilize a flat center section that extends outboard the Cabane struts. There are fewer ribs in the pre-built model, and the fuselage cross section is a little out of scale as well. These are but a few of the differences. You have to decide whether or not the fidelity to scale is worth your time or, if you will be just as happy with the pre-built version with it's excursions from scale.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

Actually, Bill, a scratch builder starts out using planks and sheets and makes his own pieces. But he really does start out with very few pieces, planks and sheets being the pieces.
And kit builders open up their kits to find lots of pieces all ready for them to start assembling.
And ARF builders open up their boxes to start out the assembly with some pretty large pieces. A ready made fuselage is one pretty big piece, wouldn't you say?

All three start out with some number of pieces they have to assemble. Some few, some large, some small.

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

Well, when I start a scratch project, I start with an idea, then progress to a sketch on a piece of paper, then to a basic drawing, then a working drawing before I buy the first piece of wood.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: ARFs versus kits
 

Kewl
You start out with very few pieces.

RE: ARF / KIT Difference Discussion
 

Arf's come with size appropriate hardware (not always the best), where kits usually leave you the builder to decide what you need. This can be frustrating when you only have catalogs and online ordering available. Getting what you think will work in the mail, then finding it is too big or small can turn some off. I know of a dozen or so folks that started building kits and still haven't finished them (or ventured into the hobby any further) due to lack of knowledge. I guess this is a pro for arf's in a way.

RE: ARF / KIT Difference Discussion
 

arf's covering is usually prettier than what I end up with when I kit built.

RE: ARF / KIT Difference Discussion
 

One main difference is price. You can get a nicely covered ARF with good hardware then add an engine an radio often times for much less money than it takes to complete a comparable kit. As someone who likes to build, this is a little frustrating but it is what it is. Some will argue that the finished kit will be of better quality and fly better. I generally agree but I don't think it is true in every case.

RE: ARF / KIT Difference Discussion
 

I think the main difference for me is time. I have two scratch/build from plans and one kit build that is nearing completion. These take time as I tend to nit-pick my own work until I'm satisfied with it. Just bought a GP Cherokee ARF (Father's Day gift) and while it really looked nice in the box, bagged and all, it has taken a bit of time to get it where I want it. My wife just came down to view the Cherokee and she really likes it...even asked me if I had enough fuel (...why, no dear, I may have to run to the LHS and get some ;)). I'll have this model finished and ready to enjoy in much less time than it would take me to build it. And it looks like a real airplane. While building from kits or plans will always be my first choice I can see where the ARF can truly add to the hobby. If and when (and the manufacturers will realize this) the ARF's get to the point where Quality Control equates to a nicely built/covered aircraft that is truly almost ready to fly then modelers will beat a path to their door to save time building and spend more time flying.

RE: ARF / KIT Difference Discussion
 

Kits/plans are typically more expensive to finish, but if you really want something original you can't beat a kit/plans. It's cool knowing that nobody else has an airplane like yours. I seem to be able to get a better feel of how a kit will fly before the maiden because I am intimately familiar with every detail (if that makes sense).

Modern ARF's are affordable, look great, are good quality, and quick to assemble. You can't beat either.

RE: ARF / KIT Difference Discussion
 

You betcha.............

And I'd like to add a wrinkle to what you said so well.

You can still get some of the feeling of uniqueness (is that a word?) with an ARF. I have always gotten a kick out of the WWII markings the US Navy did for awhile. They marked their aircraft to show what carrier they were from. And the Bunker Hill's markings were arrows. Always wanted a Corsair with those arrows. They look like someone with a sense of humor suggested them. "This end up" and "Fly in this direction" come to mind. And there was a squadron along about that time that called themselves The Checkerboards and had cowls painted to match. Hey, thanks to ARF'ing, I got one airplane that has all that. Perfectly realistic? Nah, but then, neither is the canopy and a number of other things.

I had to peel off some of the ARF "decals" and add my details, but I easily had time for that.

One of these days I'll draw myself plans for another Dewoitine 520 but this time make it about the H9 60 size. And pull out some of the contest balsa that's been lovingly stored for years. Until then......